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  1. #1

    so now that the world first race is over...

    could we analyse every video and report on Ra-Den and try to piece together what every skill does, how you deal with them and what the general strategy for the fight is?
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans Desaris's Avatar
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    okay. go ahead

    They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle. Your gods are not your gods, outsider.

  3. #3
    Isn't it something like: "Kill the orbs, nuke boss. Kill adds, nuke boss. Repeat half a dozen or so times. Kill every other or every third orbs that comes in the last phase while you nuke the boss to 5%"?
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Isn't it something like: "Kill the orbs, nuke boss. Kill adds, nuke boss. Repeat half a dozen or so times. Kill every other or every third orbs that comes in the last phase while you nuke the boss to 5%"?
    I'm looking more for something in the style of what tankspot, Fatboss or icy veins does. something that at least explains timers, effects and interactions.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  5. #5
    2 players seem to get a debuff or something they need to run outside and let the debuff run out whitch creates a lighning chain between each other and there are adds spawning for each orb that is hitting raden everything else is pretty much what the other dude said kill orbs
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    2 players seem to get a debuff or something they need to run outside and let the debuff run out whitch creates a lighning chain between each other and there are adds spawning for each orb that is hitting raden everything else is pretty much what the other dude said kill orbs
    Pretty sure that (as seen from videos) one guy starts with that, when it expires (or at some point during the timer, didn't check out too well), you do that chain to the furthest player (you can see people going out not having the debuff, then getting it), which makes the debuff chain to him. Dunno what happens if you get it twice in a row, but seeing as the timer doesn't exactly expire as soon as it's passed, I'm pretty sure it stacks or leaves a vulnerability or something. I'd go further and guess that every player hit by that chain gets a copy of the debuff, but seeing as we don't see a major fuckup like that in videos I'm not too sure about that.
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  7. #7
    Yeah that's the Unstable Vita debuff.
    The other debuff being Vita Sensitivity.
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    Soloing as a warlock.

  8. #8
    It's a very simple fight mechanically, at least with the common strat.

    In p1 there are two orbs, Vita (blue) and Anima (red). When you kill one orb, the other explodes and starts that "phase". For example you kill the Vita orb to start the Anima phase and vice-versa. There's four abilities associated with each orb type - one tank debuff, an add, a mechanic the raid has to handle that comes with an associated sensitivity debuff and the actual impact of the explosion itself which is double hp and a dot for Anima and 600k nature damage for Vita, but you can ignore all the Anima stuff because there's no reason at all to do that phase. It's 50 times harder than the Vita phase and with current tuning it's basically a trap, like trying to do large golems on heroic Animus.

    You do the Vita phase every time in p1, which means you kill every Anima orb, except when you want to reset debuffs. Every time you kill an orb and change the phase, you'll take 600k nature damage (from the Vita orb exploding) and the boss gains 10% increased damage. The lightning mechanic you see in videos is the Unstable Vita debuff, which goes on a random player and bounces after 5 seconds to the furthest person in the room from them, dealing 400k damage and leaving behind the Vita Sensitivity debuff, meaning you get one shot if you take Unstable Vita again. Basically you just make an order and have people run out one at a time and position on either side of the room to bounce the debuff back and forth, rotating every 5 seconds to a new person. You can clear Sensitivity debuffs with immunities like bubble, block etc, but otherwise you need a new target every time. Everyone else just stacks up and hits the boss.

    There's an add that spawns every 40s or so, it needs to be stunned, silenced, or tanked more than 30 yards from the raid, or it constantly casts chain lightning. It also explodes when it does, so you want to punt/grip/taunt it out of the raid before it dies.

    Every 3rd or 4th orb that comes in you will want to "reset" the Vita Sensitivity debuffs by letting the boss eat an Anima orb. This is because this essentially starts an Anima phase for a fraction of a second when the boss takes the Anima orb, before the Vita orb explodes and re-starts the Vita phase. Being in Anima for a second means you clear your Sensitivity debuffs. Every time you start a Vita phase you will take 600k+ nature damage, but the Anima phases doubles everyone's hp, so it's not a big deal outside of the first one, which you will need strong CDs for.

    Anyway, if you do that, you can reset twice before the 40% transition and the boss will only have 5 stacks, which is okay for p2 healing-wise. Your DPS check is getting to 40% without running out of soakers or having to reset more than twice, but if you can kill Lei Shen you will be able to do this easily. P2 is easy, just stack up, kill Anima orbs as they come in (it is Vita or Anima one at a time in a random order in p2) until about 20% boss hp after which you can ignore them. Anima orbs increase the maximum health of the boss by 10% when he eats them, so you can stop under 20% because the heal isn't large enough to warrant killing them. When you kill an Anima orb it does an explosion like the adds on Elegon that you have to soak, if nobody soaks the raid wipes. You can soak with a 90% cooldown just by standing under the orb as it dies. Vita orbs increase boss damage by 10% when he eats them, so you will need stronger raid CDs at the end, and overall p2 is a big healing check.

    Vision from one PoV that pretty clearly shows the whole room, if you want it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_8pJ5PA3Lo

    I think that about covers it.

  9. #9
    Thanks Gondlem, that's exactly what I was looking for. it's extremely highly unlikely that i'll ever see that fight, let alone when it's current, but it's nice to know such stuff so you got a better understanding of the kill video.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  10. #10
    The boss spawns two balls every few seconds, one red and one blue.
    Absorbing these balls can buff the boss with blue/red buffs.
    Gaining the blue buff will trigger an explosion for 600k nature damage as well as increase the boss's damage by 10% (stackable) for the rest of the fight; this will also clear the raid of the anima debuffs (boss+unstable+sensitivity).
    Gaining the red buff won't trigger any explosion, and just put a debuff on all players that increases their max HP by 100% but deals heavy shadow damage until you go back to blue phase; this will also instantly clear the raid of the vita debuffs (unstable+sensitivity). This will also increase the boss's damage by 10%.
    If you don't kill any ball, he will absorb both, one after the other. The common strat is to let him absorb only blue at the beginning, then kill all reds, which won't trigger any new explosion/phase due to the boss simply retaining his previous buff. At some point you can't handle Unstable Vita anymore because of the the lingering debuff it leaves on your players, at which point you let him absorb red, followed by blue a fraction of a second later.
    The rest of the abilities are straightforward and have already been explained. Red spawns a worm that has to be tanked, completely rapes your tank, and will respawn unless you kill a blue add on top of it, has an insane tank debuff we never managed to let a tank not die on (aside from sheer luck), has some soaking stuff that is pretty easy to handle, and completely mental raid damage.

    Highlighted in bold are the design flaws which have been used for pretty much every kill so far. Obivously the design was to reset using at least a full anima phase and not just using it for a split second only to reset debuffs, but to be fair anima phase is just dumb with such a retarded amount of raid damage, so I'm glad this "strategy" (lol) exists. It wouldn't even impact p2 stacks to do a full anima phase, you'd get there with 5 as well, it's just that the anima phase completely decimates your raid.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-04-25 at 07:17 PM.

  11. #11
    The boss also does a tank attack every time he reaches 100 energy in phase 1. In vita phase, he'll cast fatal strike once every 11 seconds, which is like a 600-700k physical attack that ignores armor (but not stagger!) and additionally death-touches the tank if he doesn't not have his particular active mitigation up. In anima phase, he'll cast murderous strike once every 33 seconds which snapshots the tank's current hp, then ticks for that much damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. So given that tanks have ~1.5-2 mil hp in anima phase, the dot tick is generally around 1 mil damage/2 seconds, and is completely unmitigated. No damage reduction cd works. Diffuse magic, zen med, divine shield, divine protection, shieldwall, etc. The only abilities that function are guardian spirit and the life-saving part of ardent defender. It's a stupid mechanic.

    In phase 2, he'll stop using the strikes, but when he starts eating more and more orbs, expect his tank damage to reach around ~2mil damage per autoattack, pre-mitigation and he swings every 1.5 seconds.

    The fatal strike ability is why so many guilds use a brewmaster for their kill - shuffle is up 100% of the time for any half decent monk tank and reducing fatal strike to roughly the strength of a normal melee attack is fairly significant.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-04-25 at 08:22 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    The boss also does a tank attack every time he reaches 100 energy in phase 1. In vita phase, he'll cast fatal strike once every 11 seconds, which is like a 600-700k physical attack that ignores armor (but not stagger!) and additionally death-touches the tank if he doesn't not have his particular active mitigation up. In anima phase, he'll cast murderous strike once every 33 seconds which snapshots the tank's current hp, then ticks for that much damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. So given that tanks have ~1.5-2 mil hp in anima phase, the dot tick is generally around 1 mil damage/2 seconds, and is completely unmitigated. No damage reduction cd works. Diffuse magic, zen med, divine shield, divine protection, shieldwall, etc. The only abilities that function are guardian spirit and the life-saving part of ardent defender. It's a stupid mechanic.

    In phase 2, he'll stop using the strikes, but when he starts eating more and more orbs, expect his tank damage to reach around ~2mil damage per autoattack, pre-mitigation and he swings every 1.5 seconds.

    The fatal strike ability is why so many guilds use a brewmaster for their kill - shuffle is up 100% of the time for any half decent monk tank and reducing fatal strike to roughly the strength of a normal melee attack is fairly significant.
    Fatal Strike must suck for a DK tank since their Blood Shield can get eaten up by a normal melee swing. I saw Sloot die twice in your kill video. Did he just mistime his SoTR for Fatal Strike or was he dying to something else?

  13. #13
    Ra-den is somewhat annoying in that he sometimes casts fatal strike instantly as he reaches 100 ... or he might just delay it for a second or two. Or even longer if he gets a materials of creation cast off (summons orbs.) Sloot died both times to SoTR falling ~0.7 seconds before the fatal strike, I'm assuming those were slightly delayed strikes.

  14. #14
    How in the world do healers heal through a tank taking 1m damage every 2 seconds?

  15. #15
    They don't, thats why you skip the Anima-Phases/only use it to reset stacks.
    To be honest, i do not see that kind of damage being healed, even with more gear. Probably Blizz wanted this to be the catch of the fight, people realizing that red is a trap :O

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorfion View Post
    How in the world do healers heal through a tank taking 1m damage every 2 seconds?
    We tried a variety of methods like having a tank taunt with low hp, not healing the current tank for ~10 seconds prior to the strike, guardian spirit spam along with LoH, but ultimately the most reliable way of dealing with Murderous strikes, aside from simply never getting it, was through: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20707

    Murderous strikes is part of the reason no one who killed Ra-den actually does anima phase.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    We tried a variety of methods like having a tank taunt with low hp, not healing the current tank for ~10 seconds prior to the strike, guardian spirit spam along with LoH, but ultimately the most reliable way of dealing with Murderous strikes, aside from simply never getting it, was through: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20707

    Murderous strikes is part of the reason no one who killed Ra-den actually does anima phase.
    Are http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20484 and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=61999 worse than http://www.wowhead.com/spell=20707 ?

    NVM Warlock spell, that's why it's used.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    In phase 2, he'll stop using the strikes, but when he starts eating more and more orbs, expect his tank damage to reach around ~2mil damage per autoattack, pre-mitigation and he swings every 1.5 seconds.
    Well I don't want to tank anymore.

  19. #19
    High Overlord Sillicis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by britishbubba View Post
    Well I don't want to tank anymore.
    Tanking is not the issue, blame healers!

  20. #20
    Blizzard's personal Ra-Den insight/strategy overview from the Q&A yesterday:

    Now that Ra-den has been defeated by a number of guilds around the world, what are your thoughts about the success of this encounter with its limited attempts and accessibility? Can we expect to see more such encounters in the future?
    Mixed thoughts about Ra-den. The sense of mystery surrounding him was pretty cool. The first guilds that took down Heroic Lei Shen had no idea what to expect when that grate in Primordius's room opened. And after the grueling pace that some guilds set in blazing a path through the main Throne of Thunder progression, it gave them a chance to relax a bit, while still retaining a competitive mindset. The encounter itself had some bugs and tuning issues that were regrettable, and that's ultimately our failing. Clever raiders often work out unforeseen solutions to the problems presented by encounters, and unfortunately the "right" way to do Ra-den ends up being one that bypasses half the mechanics on the encounter. But with an environment of limited attempts and competition between guilds, re-tuning the encounter on the fly in order to correct that would have been problematic.

    So, overall, a mixed bag. I wouldn't expect to see Heroic-only and/or limited-attempt bosses become a regular thing, but it's something we may revisit in the future, applying lessons learned from past experience as always.

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