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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    Damn....you guys are right, it's LB cast time and not LvB.....would have made alot of sense to see LvB cast time increased to 1.7sec and damage scaled accordingly to help with all those problems from haste procs/CD's and the 1sec gcd soft cap.....oh well. I like all the buffs Enh has gotten since its my main spec but I think Elem could use some buffs, not sure why GC keeps insisting they are fine.
    considering all the cleaving in HCs, we are doing pretty bad overall. But having one excelent fight compared to half a dozen horrible fights is "fine" in GCs book.

    on topic: there are haste breakpoints for elemental. they are just not significant from dps PoV
    Last edited by Sarevokcz; 2013-04-29 at 04:09 PM.

  2. #42
    Shamans being fail class is fine in GC book


    [Infracted]
    Last edited by Endus; 2013-04-29 at 05:11 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    Ok, graph time.

    It's for this reason that I state there are no haste breakpoints.

    Equivalence points, where Haste = Mastery, one is higher than the other above, and vice versa below, are dependant on how much haste you have and how much gear you have. This comes back to the point I've been making for a while now where balancing stats & understanding how weights work, rather than blindly focusing on one particular stat, is the best way to go.

    Lastly, optimising for cleave/AoE in a minor way is fine, but I would use multi-target sims to influence your gearing approach.
    Bink,

    I am also facing same issues as Gendori.

    For single-target, BOTH for the PE/AS and Echo/EB talent combinations, I'm getting very little difference in single target DPS for all stat combinations. (that is to say, my secondary stats are roughly equal)

    HOWEVER, for 5-target cleave (and I suspect 3 target), Crit > Haste > Mastery seems the way to go. As opposed to Mastery being the best stat for cleaving.

    Is there an explanation for why this is?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    Bink,

    I am also facing same issues as Gendori.

    For single-target, BOTH for the PE/AS and Echo/EB talent combinations, I'm getting very little difference in single target DPS for all stat combinations. (that is to say, my secondary stats are roughly equal)

    HOWEVER, for 5-target cleave (and I suspect 3 target), Crit > Haste > Mastery seems the way to go. As opposed to Mastery being the best stat for cleaving.

    Is there an explanation for why this is?
    Actually anywhere from 2 targets and up, Haste is your WORST stat by far

    Its like Crit>=Mastery>>>>>Haste

    Its kind of easy to explain why

    1)Crit doesnt scale with LvB, When youre cleaving/AoEing, LvB is less of your damage, hence crit is affecting more of your damage, add in the spellpower buff and Voila, Crit is powerful

    2)Mastery is a beast on 3 or more targets with Chain lightning

    3)Crit double dips from your mastery, Since Mastery is really good on 3 or more targets, your crit will naturally scale with it

    4) Too much haste will definiltey GCD lock your chain lightning, devaluing haste for more targets

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    Actually anywhere from 2 targets and up, Haste is your WORST stat by far

    Its like Crit>=Mastery>>>>>Haste

    Its kind of easy to explain why

    1)Crit doesnt scale with LvB, When youre cleaving/AoEing, LvB is less of your damage, hence crit is affecting more of your damage, add in the spellpower buff and Voila, Crit is powerful

    2)Mastery is a beast on 3 or more targets with Chain lightning

    3)Crit double dips from your mastery, Since Mastery is really good on 3 or more targets, your crit will naturally scale with it

    4) Too much haste will definiltey GCD lock your chain lightning, devaluing haste for more targets
    I strongly agree - thought i was the only one facing this weird situation. Most shammies still maintain the H > M > C priority.

    In my current reforge, putting Crit first (my weights are still C > H > M, as opposed to what you put), has virtually no impact on my single target. So I'm rolling with it for single and multi target. Gonna test it on my raid after reset :P

  6. #46
    I never optimise for AoE, and am running more of a H = M > C priority. Once I pick up either 4pc or LMG (Legendary Meta Gem) I'll switch to a proper M > H > C build. This will only be <1% lower than a H > M > C build, but with the added bonuses of no awkward sub 1 sec casts & better AoE dps.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    I never optimise for AoE, and am running more of a H = M > C priority. Once I pick up either 4pc or LMG (Legendary Meta Gem) I'll switch to a proper M > H > C build. This will only be <1% lower than a H > M > C build, but with the added bonuses of no awkward sub 1 sec casts & better AoE dps.
    Hi Bink

    I've heard this mentioned before about switching to a mastery build when players have the 4pc and/or LMG, which is something I am currently fortunate enough to have. However, even after obtaining both of these and running a simc, it is still telling me that H>M>C; is there any particular reason why? I've heard a lot of shammies state that you should be switching to M>H>C or even C=M>H (I suppose for the AoE dmg) but Simc point-blank refuses to agree with that.

    I am told that Simc accounts for all the potential haste increases; so it would surely recognise that you'd spend a lot of time - especially under hero - under the GCD cap when casting LvB. If this is the case, why does it still state that H>M>C? Is it because LB is still our highest damaging spell (not hardest hitting, but does the most dmg over the course of a fight...unless it's AoE ofc) or am I running something incorrectly in simc that people might think is obvious?

    Thanks.

  8. #48
    I don't have 2 piece nor any RPPM trinkets but have the legendary meta and SPA trinket and for me it's Mastery > haste > crit for single target (although very close).

    I've made reforge plots and the difference between full mastery and full haste reforge is only 0,1% so I've also went full mastery and find it more enjoyable to play.
    Those sub1 casts I find a bit annoying, if i press the next ability at the end of the cast, it doesn't get in the spell queue and I'm mashing my keys old school style >.<

  9. #49
    Hmmm...just re-ran it on "light movement" instead of "heavy movement" and it does in fact state M=>H>C...must have been me. Gonna try re-sim it on multiple targets as well.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMusic View Post
    Hi Bink

    I've heard this mentioned before about switching to a mastery build when players have the 4pc and/or LMG, which is something I am currently fortunate enough to have. However, even after obtaining both of these and running a simc, it is still telling me that H>M>C; is there any particular reason why? I've heard a lot of shammies state that you should be switching to M>H>C or even C=M>H (I suppose for the AoE dmg) but Simc point-blank refuses to agree with that.

    I am told that Simc accounts for all the potential haste increases; so it would surely recognise that you'd spend a lot of time - especially under hero - under the GCD cap when casting LvB. If this is the case, why does it still state that H>M>C? Is it because LB is still our highest damaging spell (not hardest hitting, but does the most dmg over the course of a fight...unless it's AoE ofc) or am I running something incorrectly in simc that people might think is obvious?

    Thanks.
    If you build a M>H set and run it through SimCraft you end up ~2k dps behind the H>M setup (or less than 1%). Therefore, H>M or M>H are relatively even (and I would surmise that a M=H build might also be OK). There are various reasons that both setups work, and given the minor difference I prefer M>H because you don't spend so much time under the GCD cap, you get Ascendance back slightly faster, and it works better for AoE/Cleave.

    I've got no idea where this C=M>H build style comes from, unless you're talking about AoE only.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    If you build a M>H set and run it through SimCraft you end up ~2k dps behind the H>M setup (or less than 1%). Therefore, H>M or M>H are relatively even (and I would surmise that a M=H build might also be OK). There are various reasons that both setups work, and given the minor difference I prefer M>H because you don't spend so much time under the GCD cap, you get Ascendance back slightly faster, and it works better for AoE/Cleave.

    I've got no idea where this C=M>H build style comes from, unless you're talking about AoE only.
    for me personally when I was running the plots, single target wise it was roughly a Net 2.3% Single target DPS Loss if I reforged off all my haste and put it into mastery from 7000 haste to 2000.

    After 7000 haste if I kept reforging more forsaking mastery, it only worked out to a .7% DPS gain single target. Its at this point for me I decided to go Mastery > Haste

    Your Mileage may vary

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    for me personally when I was running the plots, single target wise it was roughly a Net 2.3% Single target DPS Loss if I reforged off all my haste and put it into mastery from 7000 haste to 2000.

    After 7000 haste if I kept reforging more forsaking mastery, it only worked out to a .7% DPS gain single target. Its at this point for me I decided to go Mastery > Haste

    Your Mileage may vary
    Any time you start something with "for me personally" I'd recommend not saying it at all. I'm talking about a T15H profile, specifically with T15 4pc and the LMG. It has 12.5k haste and 9.2k mastery.

    At lower gear levels, like what you have, the H>M gearing focus still applies, as I've mentioned before (and in the guide).

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    Any time you start something with "for me personally" I'd recommend not saying it at all. I'm talking about a T15H profile, specifically with T15 4pc and the LMG. It has 12.5k haste and 9.2k mastery.

    At lower gear levels, like what you have, the H>M gearing focus still applies, as I've mentioned before (and in the guide).
    H>M Focus does not apply for me at my gear level. If I add more haste forsaking Mastery its going to be a very tiny (less than .8%) DPS gain, while being a noticable DPS loss in AoE/Cleave situations.

    You accuse me before of trying to give too simple an answer to a complex question and then you go ahead and tel me in wrong and give me a blanket go H>M response.

    Keep in Mind your sample T15H profile is optimized for SINGLE TARGET DPS only, and does not necessarily apply to the fights in this raid tier

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    H>M Focus does not apply for me at my gear level. If I add more haste forsaking Mastery its going to be a very tiny (less than .8%) DPS gain, while being a noticable DPS loss in AoE/Cleave situations.

    You accuse me before of trying to give too simple an answer to a complex question and then you go ahead and tel me in wrong and give me a blanket go H>M response.

    Keep in Mind your sample T15H profile is optimized for SINGLE TARGET DPS only, and does not necessarily apply to the fights in this raid tier
    What I'm saying is that optimising excessively for AoE dps over single target dps will be a net performance loss over all, as the proportion of single target damage to AoE/Cleave damage is fairly large, which makes optimising for AoE damage a minor consideration.

    Lets take this a step back for a second. Why have you been looking into AoE stat weights? Are you advocating for a second gearset focusing on AoE centric stats?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by binkenstein View Post
    What I'm saying is that optimising excessively for AoE dps over single target dps will be a net performance loss over all, as the proportion of single target damage to AoE/Cleave damage is fairly large, which makes optimising for AoE damage a minor consideration.

    Lets take this a step back for a second. Why have you been looking into AoE stat weights? Are you advocating for a second gearset focusing on AoE centric stats?
    I wouldnt say Ive over optimized at all

    Not that I have been looking into AoE stat weights so much, but I dont hear it discussed a Lot when it should play a role in reforging decisions. People focus far too much on Patchwerk DPS. On this, we are on the weaker end of the spectrum. Not enough people know or understand that things change when you add targets. If there is someone stuck on a progression fight for their guild, or trying to get a WoL rank, knowing this imformation will definitley be helpful. All I see everywhere in every guide is this standard simple Haste > mastery > crit when the answer is much much more complicated than that, and people should know that on some fights, they can squeeze out more performance if they did it differently.

    However Im not blind and have not completely forsaken Patchwerk DPS either, As I have continually said, In my current profile setup, If I reforge into even More haste, I can only get it from Mastery, doing so will ONLY net me less than a .8% dps gain on single target. I feel at this point it is a fair tradeoff to forsake this .6-.8% gain and reforge into stats that better suit Cleave/AoE situations of which there are plenty during this tier.

    If I really really wanted to be OCD I would reforge every fight, but Im not going to do that, so Im going to pick a setup that provides me 99.3% of the single target damage I can do, while also being loads better in AoE/cleave situations. Its a level and a decision Im comfortable with, and its not a blind choice, people focus far too much in general on the choices you DONT make rather than what you gain by making them

  16. #56
    I'll refer you to http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post18504304 then.
    H>M is not all that common in the post, and I do go into detail about the priorities for the typical EB/Echo build. That's also why in that post I recommend changing from the "best" H>M build to a M>H build. I just haven't analysed anything AoE in depth because I know roughly how it will turn out (and I've been fairly busy lately)

  17. #57
    Pit Lord Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMusic View Post
    Hi Bink

    I've heard this mentioned before about switching to a mastery build when players have the 4pc and/or LMG, which is something I am currently fortunate enough to have. However, even after obtaining both of these and running a simc, it is still telling me that H>M>C; is there any particular reason why? I've heard a lot of shammies state that you should be switching to M>H>C or even C=M>H (I suppose for the AoE dmg) but Simc point-blank refuses to agree with that.

    I am told that Simc accounts for all the potential haste increases; so it would surely recognise that you'd spend a lot of time - especially under hero - under the GCD cap when casting LvB. If this is the case, why does it still state that H>M>C? Is it because LB is still our highest damaging spell (not hardest hitting, but does the most dmg over the course of a fight...unless it's AoE ofc) or am I running something incorrectly in simc that people might think is obvious?

    Thanks.
    Well I'd u got the time and money u can always try to regem/forge for mastery and then haste and see what does better... I would do both a 10min test on dummies plus a quick lfg dungeon run to see how they compare.... The sim doesn't factor in several things that could make the diff in stat priority so could explain why its not giving the desired or optimal results.....also the logic behind why mastery>haste makes sense to me and I would prob go that route.... Seems like its more well rounded for variety of encounters and you will not lose any benefits from haste buffs/procs that can happen if you stack too much haste.


    Someone said lava burst Doesn't scale with crit but didn't they change it so it does now? If not, they should so it works like locks chaos bolt since lvb is a good chunk of overall damage to not be effected by a major stat like crit, it was one of my main suggestions for elem in the past.

    Would also like to see some more ways to let haste benefit our dps like buff dmg and tick scaling of flame shock dot, poss add a new dot (like thru unleash elements, consuming buff converts an instant cast spells damage into a dot or something) and lastly increase lava burst cast time to 1.7-8 sec and scale damage accordingly.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    Well I'd u got the time and money u can always try to regem/forge for mastery and then haste and see what does better... I would do both a 10min test on dummies plus a quick lfg dungeon run to see how they compare.... The sim doesn't factor in several things that could make the diff in stat priority so could explain why its not giving the desired or optimal results.....also the logic behind why mastery>haste makes sense to me and I would prob go that route.... Seems like its more well rounded for variety of encounters and you will not lose any benefits from haste buffs/procs that can happen if you stack too much haste.


    Someone said lava burst Doesn't scale with crit but didn't they change it so it does now? If not, they should so it works like locks chaos bolt since lvb is a good chunk of overall damage to not be effected by a major stat like crit, it was one of my main suggestions for elem in the past.
    I'm sorry but this whole quote is incredibly misleading. You probably didn't intend it to be, and it's obvious that you have put out time writing this, but some things you said are just very wrong. First of all doing 10 minutes test/doing dungeons etc is not even close to what a sim does. A sim does that 10000 times instead of 1. You dps can be increased/decreased greatly just on when trinket procs and how you yourself preform. Trying to judge of that small size is like tossing a coin 10 times and concluding that it's a 70% chance for it to be heads.

    Second part is also wrong. They did not change it, they changed so lava burst now always crit and deals more damage if flame shock is applied. This just means that if you don't have a flameshock on your target lava burst will still do decent damage (abit more then a lightning bolt.)

  19. #59
    Pit Lord Protoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telefonorm View Post
    I'm sorry but this whole quote is incredibly misleading. You probably didn't intend it to be, and it's obvious that you have put out time writing this, but some things you said are just very wrong. First of all doing 10 minutes test/doing dungeons etc is not even close to what a sim does. A sim does that 10000 times instead of 1. You dps can be increased/decreased greatly just on when trinket procs and how you yourself preform. Trying to judge of that small size is like tossing a coin 10 times and concluding that it's a 70% chance for it to be heads.

    Second part is also wrong. They did not change it, they changed so lava burst now always crit and deals more damage if flame shock is applied. This just means that if you don't have a flameshock on your target lava burst will still do decent damage (abit more then a lightning bolt.)
    Thanks but I don't need you to explain the basics of sims lol, I know how sims work and I'm sure most who use them do as well....yes they are better prediction tools cause you can run it a billion times, but there is still value to real, in game testing where a sim does patchwerk style fights and has to simulate movement and can't factor in multiple adds or phase shifts and stuff like that. Run LFR twice if you want a better in game result, or even a full raid, but that would take a while if just testing the difference between haste or mastery. My point is don't put full faith in just sims and blindly follow what they think is best, they do their best to be accurate but still not factoring in everything that happens in the game.... its something I see with haste vs mastery for Enhance also where time spent off the target means haste has no effect, or aoe situations....both of which mastery keeps buffing dps but haste does not. These things should play a role in choosing which stat you stack and both methods should be used together to figure out how to maximize your dps.

    And not sure why you are correcting me on the second part since I was not making a statement but asking a question about LvB....and if thats the case then I still think they should give it the chaos bolt treatment and find a way to let it's damage scale with crit, even if only a very minor scaling component. Makes alot of sense.

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