1. #1

    "...RPPM trinket model allows for more Interesting gameplay decisions..."

    What are your feelings about RPPM trinkets?The general opinion in our guild(top 10 25 man guild) is that they are bad for the game.Its simply HUGE rng which is not even balanced between classes.Having or not having procs on pull on Lei Shen HC for example can make or break which force guilds to wait to make sure that all RPPM trinkets will proc.

    This sounds like a bit of hyperbole to me. You're saying you intentionally wipe Lei Shen pulls when not enough trinkets proc in the first 15 seconds? I am highly skeptical. We did add protection against streaks of bad luck to the various ToT trinkets, and they're generally the overall strongest options currently available. We're still fine-tuning their design, but the so-called "RPPM" trinket model allows for more interesting gameplay decisions, particularly where skilled players can react to procs and modify their actions accordingly. Individual players may experience more variation, but on a raidwide level, trinket proc luck is incredibly unlikely to meaningfully vary to a degree that it would affect your entire group's success or failure.
    So, has anyone been doing anything, in particular, to "modify their actions accordingly," when their RPPM trinkets proc?

    As for me, the blue post sounds a bit like hyperbole, but I'm open to ideas.

  2. #2
    When my RPPM trinket not proccs at the very beginning I instantly jump into a fire and blame lag.

  3. #3
    For Enhancement, its an entirely passive experience since our top trinkets are the most boring options out there. However, I could see how Rune of Origination and the Caster DPS trinket off of Lei Shen are causing people to change things up a bit. If Blizzard wants to make the gameplay surrounding trinkets more interesting, then they need to move away from the huge stat proc trinkets, and create more like RoR.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    For Enhancement, its an entirely passive experience since our top trinkets are the most boring options out there. However, I could see how Rune of Origination and the Caster DPS trinket off of Lei Shen are causing people to change things up a bit. If Blizzard wants to make the gameplay surrounding trinkets more interesting, then they need to move away from the huge stat proc trinkets, and create more like RoR.
    That has nothing to with with RPPM trinkets though and could be achieved (and would be better imo) with the old trinkets as you could plan ahead and add en extra skill level.

    Now it's more like "hope it procs when i have 7 ES stacks" instead of making sure you will have it just before the ICD ends.

  5. #5
    I am not even seeing a single indicator of when Horridon's Last Gasp procs, let alone stacks, so I certainly can't react to it in any meaningful way. I don't see how RPPM is more involved than standard procs... At least with ICDs which are trackable, one can plan ahead and see when they are coming.

  6. #6
    Yes. I react to all my trinkets. If I manage to get a Che-yes proc (boomkin. I know this is a Shaman thread, but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents about RMMP trinkets) and I also have my haste buff active, Im going to refresh as least my empowered dot. I use WeakAuras to track all of my Procs (RPPM and otherwise) so that I can change my rotation whenever I have a proc.

    I also got the Lei Shen crit trinket last night and that COMPLETELY changes my rotation when it procs. So I do agree with Blizzard in the fact that RPPM trinkets really do allow the good players to stand out a little more than the bad when it comes to just raw playstyle.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 04:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by moveth View Post
    Yes. I react to all my trinkets. If I manage to get a Che-yes proc (boomkin. I know this is a Shaman thread, but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents about RMMP trinkets) and I also have my haste buff active, Im going to refresh as least my empowered dot. I use WeakAuras to track all of my Procs (RPPM and otherwise) so that I can change my rotation whenever I have a proc.

    I also got the Lei Shen crit trinket last night and that COMPLETELY changes my rotation when it procs. So I do agree with Blizzard in the fact that RPPM trinkets really do allow the good players to stand out a little more than the bad when it comes to just raw playstyle.
    And Shockeye, if you use something like Weakauras or TellMeWhen to track "Cloudburst", you can see when your trinket is proccing :]

  7. #7
    I think that statement mostly applies to dot classes and the lei shen trinkets for some classes. Dots snapshot stats on cast so if you have trinket procs coming at random intervals that's forcing you to refresh in a somewhat random fashion which definitely spices things up a bit.

    For enh it's pretty limited. If you know the boss is going to die in the next 5 minutes you might hold your fire ele until you get a trinket proc (or ascend if you know it's coming in the next 3 minutes). In general though you don't end up holding any Cds because you don't really know when those procs are going to come and you may end up losing out on a whole cast of that CD.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by moveth View Post
    I also got the Lei Shen crit trinket last night and that COMPLETELY changes my rotation when it procs. So I do agree with Blizzard in the fact that RPPM trinkets really do allow the good players to stand out a little more than the bad when it comes to just raw playstyle.[COLOR="red"]
    Might be true for dot classes. I personally as ele absolutely hate the rppm system. Maybe because pretty much every other boss has a nuke phase where it takes increased damage. Back in the day I could make a difference in dps by knowing the internal cooldowns of my trinkets and try to line up my fire elemental with that. Now it has become an absolute passive experience, and I really hope for some on use trinkets next tier.

  9. #9
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    Not at all. It was much more interesting with a trinket that I could work around. Now I get something which flies on and off randomly and I would lose way too much dps getting the most out of the trinket.

    I wish they'd go back to ICD for the next raid, but I doubt it'll happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  10. #10
    The bit that pissed me off the most was:
    particularly where skilled players can react to procs and modify their actions accordingly

    I personally don't see any skill in downloading an aura addon from curse, or mod-ing your current one whatever, and then when the indicator goes off you then go from pressing 1234 to 2314 (just for example).

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Phinxx View Post
    The bit that pissed me off the most was:
    I personally don't see any skill in downloading an aura addon from curse, or mod-ing your current one whatever, and then when the indicator goes off you then go from pressing 1234 to 2314 (just for example).
    This is a gross oversimplification. You could say the same thing about popping a CD.

    Think about a class like a warlock:
    You hit your 4th soul shard. Normally at this point you would be looking to haunt. Instead your trinket procs. Now you're tabbing all over the place to get your dots up to support your now more powerful stats. Same with a With the old system you would just track the ICD and be like "hey I know my trinket is about to proc so when that happens in 10s I'll start refreshing my dots/bleeds". There are plenty of examples like this (especially with Rune and Unerring Vision) but not so much for Enh.

  12. #12
    I agree with Zenga on this.

    The Rppm system sucks most , when the trinket just doesnt want to proc at the beginning so you cant line up prepot, trinket and Ascendence or when it just doesn't want to proc during a nuke or burn phase.

    Maybe the normal mode and heroic mode versions proc better and more often, but my LFR Wushoolsay hates me.

  13. #13
    People who played at the highest skill level always tracked the ICDs of their trinkets with addons so they could plan their rotation around the procs as much as they could. High skill is all about minimizing the RNG after all.

  14. #14
    I think what they are saying is true in certain cases, affliction locks being the prime example.

    Other than trying to sync up some procs with cooldowns many other classes gain little from altering their rotation though. In many cases, the example being elemental, there is no change in rotational execution whatsoever, and delaying cooldowns is only of marginal gain.

    From personal experience, using Affdots to track dot strength... it's really a pretty compelling gameplay perk to dynamically alter your "rotation" to those procs. It's both fun and rewarding, though I doubt it makes a huge difference past not altering anything based on afflicitions low standard deviation on raidbots.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Telefonorm View Post
    That has nothing to with with RPPM trinkets though and could be achieved (and would be better imo) with the old trinkets as you could plan ahead and add en extra skill level.

    Now it's more like "hope it procs when i have 7 ES stacks" instead of making sure you will have it just before the ICD ends.
    It has everything to do with RPPM because Ghostcrawler is saying that less predictability makes them more interesting.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    I think what they are saying is true in certain cases, affliction locks being the prime example.

    Other than trying to sync up some procs with cooldowns many other classes gain little from altering their rotation though. In many cases, the example being elemental, there is no change in rotational execution whatsoever, and delaying cooldowns is only of marginal gain.

    From personal experience, using Affdots to track dot strength... it's really a pretty compelling gameplay perk to dynamically alter your "rotation" to those procs. It's both fun and rewarding, though I doubt it makes a huge difference past not altering anything based on afflicitions low standard deviation on raidbots.
    Many specs can take advantage of this beyond affliction tbh. Ret can get an extra TV or two under buffs with a little planning.

  17. #17
    I don't have many problems with the RPPM system overall. Some trinkets feel too random, but that's only really because they have low proc rates (look at the melee meta gem as an example of a very stable/consistent RPPM proc, or even talisman of bloodlust for an example of a relatively stable trinket).

    If anything, the biggest issue with RPPM effects is how they're putting too much emphasis on haste stacking. Enhancement went from having relatively balanced secondary stats to haste stacking all the way, solely from the addition of 3 RPPM effects. If anything, Blizzard should balance RPPM effects around a higher base proc rate (say 2 RPPM minimum for somewhat stable results) and then cut the haste (and crit, from some RPPM effects) scaling entirely.

  18. #18
    What many of you guys are forgetting is that this same thing could be done with the ICD, but in alot more skillfull/better way.

    Reacting to procs isn't the hard part. Planning ahead what to do when X procs and when it will proc, if you should or shouldn't save cooldowns, if you can stack up an earthsohck / EB before lei shen trinket procs, that's the hard part and the part that requires the most skill.

    What blizzard is reffering to is that now skilled players can react better and do more dps but in reality they just shrunk the difference between mediocare players and very good players. Specially for certain classes. Refreshing dots when power auras/weakauras/TMW lights up really isn't hard, but to plan ahead when the best time to use a potion with a haste ICD trinket and ascendance coming up and saving Fire elemental 40 seconds more just for that, that's the hard decisions. This RPPM system totally nullifies it.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Telefonorm View Post
    What many of you guys are forgetting is that this same thing could be done with the ICD, but in alot more skillfull/better way.

    Reacting to procs isn't the hard part. Planning ahead what to do when X procs and when it will proc, if you should or shouldn't save cooldowns, if you can stack up an earthsohck / EB before lei shen trinket procs, that's the hard part and the part that requires the most skill.

    What blizzard is reffering to is that now skilled players can react better and do more dps but in reality they just shrunk the difference between mediocare players and very good players. Specially for certain classes. Refreshing dots when power auras/weakauras/TMW lights up really isn't hard, but to plan ahead when the best time to use a potion with a haste ICD trinket and ascendance coming up and saving Fire elemental 40 seconds more just for that, that's the hard decisions. This RPPM system totally nullifies it.
    And that's exactly the problem, once more elemental gets shafted because these trinkets, like alot of things work better for classes with dots... with the amount of random procs I have, haste, various int procs, theres no way for me to plan for anything to be lined up, if haste procs, ill go with it, if it procs ill go with it... no point delaying... Sure if you have a class like AFF (wushoo) or Boomy (lei shens) then great this system adds a level of skill to significantly increase dps. But for ele ? saving anything is going to be a dps loss, because if you save it and it is an 'unlucky phase' even with protection, then you may end up losing a cd usage or just never get a proc lineup that you are looking for. RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG means attempt one your ASC dps can be double that of attempt two... and with so much dps tied into a single cd the randomness of it is just plain silly...

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