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  1. #141
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meiluy View Post
    Yes, there would be new animations. That was a given, especially after Vol'Jin's update. But we were discussing SKELETON, which doesn't need to change. They only need to modify the animations (and add new ones), which, once again, is expected to bring them in line with the newer races.
    Really? You just said that OLD animations would work just fine for the new models. Now you're saying that new animations are a given? Okay.

    Well, if only one team is working on them, I would expect them to take some time. Keep in mind, they do entire expansions in about three years, and that has a lot more resources than the 8 initial races alone. However, I would also expect them to be done by this next expansion, as three years is enough for an expansion, it should be plenty for 16 models (8 races x 2 Genders)

    You seem to be missing the point. The point is that there's no way they're going to make 8 remolded races plus 2 new races, which is why its apparently a given that the next new expansion feature will be a class.

    One or two teams working on this would not detract from an expansion's team. They could still very easily give us a new race or two with this next expansion. You are clearly underestimating their resources if you think the one or two teams working on this model revamp would detract from an expansion's team and their ability to add races.
    Actually I'm not underestimating their resources. I'm pointing out how illogical it is for Blizzard to bring out new races when clearly their team has been working on revamping the old races. Its also illogical when you consider that the old models have more features than the newer races (Worgens, Goblins, Pandarens) have, and that revamping the old races is a bigger risk. In other words, I highly doubt that Blizzard would use a side team to get this done, they more than likely have their main teams working on it.

    Really? You think that anything new isn't enough to sell an expansion? Tell that to Everquest, which has had expansions that only added areas, no level increases, classes or races. That stuff sold like hotcakes back then. However, if we're sticking with WoW, keep in mind the only reason we were getting two races each before was for faction balance. Which is why the neutral factions work, since after a starting zone, the player can pick which side they want to end up on. Therefore the factions remain balanced (options wise, not population wise). As for the one race being the reason we got a new class, I don't think that's the case. We had just had an expansion where we didn't get a class, so I think they planned on giving us a class for the fourth expansion regardless.
    Thanks for not addressing any point I made. Again, the neutral race in the previous expansion also came with a class. If you're suggesting another neutral race, you're going to need another class as well. It would just be expected. However, again, revamping the models AND adding a neutral race seems like overkill, because the neutral race would be overshadowed by the revamped character models, which would get all the attention. So why bother wasting resources on the neutral race when you could use those resources to make the revamped character models even better?

    It would be like Blizzard revamping every class in the game AND giving us a new class on top of it. Doesn't that seem a bit ridiculous to you?


    Do you have any proof that the most requested feature is revamped vanilla races? That sounds entirely projected. I see more threads requesting Demon Hunter class, more Dungeons instead of Scenarios, removal of LFR, changing LFR to queue for Normal and Heroic modes, etc than I see for any model changes. By the way, since you're the one making such an absurd claim and refusing to back down, the burden of proof falls on YOU, not me. So, start up that poll in the official forums asking which people would prefer, updated models of vanilla races or two new races, then put the link to it here. Try not to influence people's decision in the thread, just post the question and the poll, and we'll see what we get.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...or-2-new-races

    One of the most one-sided polls ever.

    BTW, I have yet to hear any developer at Blizzard talk about Demon Hunter classes outside of GC's one twitter comment, but the developers talk about revamped models nearly every time there's an interview.

    Why? Because people are constantly asking about them.


    Yes, they broke a pattern. That doesn't mean they will definitely do it again. "Being Fair" has nothing to do with it, as they had no real option for this expansion. If they'd not given us the Pandaren race but let us explore Pandaria, there would have been a major backlash.
    They don't really have an option for the next expansion either. Again they're putting out revamped vanilla character models. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for anything else except a new class.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    This isn't to say that there aren't merits to redoing the models, or that they shouldn't redo them. There are, and they are. But there's no way in hell they're going to try to pretend it's the same thing as adding a new race or class when the time comes. It just plain is not a selling feature. The fact that a game made after 2004 looks like a game made after 2004 isn't a feature, it's an expectation.
    Whether its a selling point or not is really a non-issue. The point is that the revamped models take time and resources. Resources that could have been used to create 2 new races for the next expansion. Because of that, I seriously doubt you're seeing new races next time around, because Blizzard spent time and resources on revamping the 8 vanilla races.

  2. #142
    ..as much as i want the new models... i dont think they can really be a selling point of the next expansion. Included in the game? Yeah thatd be sick. But if you think about it.. people that dont buy the expansion are still going to get the models. Itd be weird if some humans looked dumb and some looked awesome. And the dumb ones asked, "how do i look like that?" and he replies, "you have to buy the new xpac:wrath of the new models" or something

  3. #143
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukhoi View Post
    ..as much as i want the new models... i dont think they can really be a selling point of the next expansion. Included in the game? Yeah thatd be sick. But if you think about it.. people that dont buy the expansion are still going to get the models. Itd be weird if some humans looked dumb and some looked awesome. And the dumb ones asked, "how do i look like that?" and he replies, "you have to buy the new xpac:wrath of the new models" or something
    Agreed. Which is my point. You'll get the new models whether you buy the next expansion or not. Heck, it might not even be considered a feature of the next expansion. However, those new models are still taking a massive chunk of development time, and would eclipse any new race Blizzard would create. Let's face it, no future race concept can compete with brand new looking Humans, Orcs, Trolls, and Night Elves.

    So what's the best option? A new class.

  4. #144
    Blizzard doesn't have to follow any formula. They will do what they believe is best for the game (whether right or wrong is a different story).

    I do think they know there's a strong demand for another class. It's a big selling point. I also think Blizzard realizes that class homogenization is already a big problem and class balance is a big problem.

    With that said, I think Blizzard really WANTS to add a new class to WoW, but they won't do it until they feel they have a viable class that's fun, unique, and relatively balanced. I really do hope it's next expansion, but I won't be surprised if it isn't.

  5. #145
    I don't see why they can't be a selling point though. While it might not be as fresh as something completely new, it's still a pretty big thing to tout for the expansion, and something to draw back an old crowd if it's WoW with a new coat of paint. TBH most of the superficial complaints I hear from friends is the outdated look of character models, especially compared to other MMO's. They pride themselves in the look of their characters, and turn helmets off. It's still universal that the character faces need an update.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    I don't see why they can't be a selling point though. While it might not be as fresh as something completely new, it's still a pretty big thing to tout for the expansion, and something to draw back an old crowd if it's WoW with a new coat of paint. TBH most of the superficial complaints I hear from friends is the outdated look of character models, especially compared to other MMO's. They pride themselves in the look of their characters, and turn helmets off. It's still universal that the character faces need an update.
    "This game doesn't look at all like it's nine years old" doesn't make a very catchy blurb on the box or bullet point in a presentation. They need to do other things in addition to the model updates that they can advertise with a straight face.

  7. #147
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    Blizzard doesn't have to follow any formula. They will do what they believe is best for the game (whether right or wrong is a different story).

    I do think they know there's a strong demand for another class. It's a big selling point. I also think Blizzard realizes that class homogenization is already a big problem and class balance is a big problem.

    With that said, I think Blizzard really WANTS to add a new class to WoW, but they won't do it until they feel they have a viable class that's fun, unique, and relatively balanced. I really do hope it's next expansion, but I won't be surprised if it isn't.
    That would be a tinker class. It would be fun, unique, and given how monks were implemented, it would be well-balanced.

    Sounds like a no-brainer. Mainly because I can't honestly think of a superior candidate.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That would be a tinker class. It would be fun, unique, and given how monks were implemented, it would be well-balanced.

    Sounds like a no-brainer. Mainly because I can't honestly think of a superior candidate.
    It's pretty obvious the next expansion will be Burning Legion focused (hello Wrathion), and I know what makes more sense than a tinker for that.

    And seriously, when did this Tinker-phase happen? Why does everyone on this website suddenly want to play a Tinker randomly?

  9. #149
    I am Murloc! Conscious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    BC - Race (Dr/Be)
    Wrath - Class, meta-race (DK)
    Cata - Race (Wr/Gb)
    Mists - Class/Race (Mo/Pa)

    I can see them easily avoiding adding a new class. Based off your own information.

    Regardless, speculation is still silly.
    If they still had twelve million subscriptions, I could see them trying to pull a fast one.

    Fortunately for us, they probably don't want to give people any more reasons to unsubscribe, so my money's on both a Class/Race and New Models.

  10. #150
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    It's pretty obvious the next expansion will be Burning Legion focused (hello Wrathion), and I know what makes more sense than a tinker for that.

    And seriously, when did this Tinker-phase happen? Why does everyone on this website suddenly want to play a Tinker randomly?
    Mainly because people realized that it is the last WC3 hero unit that has no ability representation in WoW. The last two that also had no ability representation became WoW classes.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Mainly because people realized that it is the last WC3 hero unit that has no ability representation in WoW. The last two that also had no ability representation became WoW classes.
    What about Alchemists?

    Crypt Lord doesn't either. I'm not saying they should make a Crypt Lord class, but I'm not saying I'd be against it either.
    Last edited by Larynx; 2013-05-29 at 11:24 PM.

  12. #152
    I am Murloc! Conscious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Mainly because people realized that it is the last WC3 hero unit that has no ability representation in WoW. The last two that also had no ability representation became WoW classes.
    Yeah, but it's the least feasible as Engineering covers most of it's bases already.

    If anything, Demon Hunter is the probable candidate.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You seem to be missing the point. The point is that there's no way they're going to make 8 remolded races plus 2 new races, which is why its apparently a given that the next new expansion feature will be a class.
    So, by that logic, the fact that they were revamping all of the oldworld zones in Cata meant there was no way they'd add more zones. You keep thinking they can't do more races just because they're working on the old ones. That's a terrible way to look at things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually I'm not underestimating their resources. I'm pointing out how illogical it is for Blizzard to bring out new races when clearly their team has been working on revamping the old races. Its also illogical when you consider that the old models have more features than the newer races (Worgens, Goblins, Pandarens) have, and that revamping the old races is a bigger risk. In other words, I highly doubt that Blizzard would use a side team to get this done, they more than likely have their main teams working on it.
    Your earlier reply tells me you are underestimating their resources, because you think they don't have enough for both. They do. And one again, you're doing this "Main team/side team" thing, which doesn't make sense. They're divided up by project, not quality. Some teams are working on the next expansion, some are working on content patch stuff, some are working on this, some are working on that. That's how a studio works. Team A is not necessarily any better than teams B, C or D.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Thanks for not addressing any point I made. Again, the neutral race in the previous expansion also came with a class. If you're suggesting another neutral race, you're going to need another class as well. It would just be expected. However, again, revamping the models AND adding a neutral race seems like overkill, because the neutral race would be overshadowed by the revamped character models, which would get all the attention. So why bother wasting resources on the neutral race when you could use those resources to make the revamped character models even better?

    It would be like Blizzard revamping every class in the game AND giving us a new class on top of it. Doesn't that seem a bit ridiculous to you?
    You say that the new race came with a class because they only added one race? That is terrible logic. As said before, we got a new class more due to the fact we hadn't had one since Wrath than anything else. We got the neutral race Pandarens because people would throw a fit if they weren't playable, and they were "introduced" this expansion. They didn't have to add a second race because, being neutral, both sides gets the race, so no second race HAD to be added. What part of that don't you understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...or-2-new-races

    One of the most one-sided polls ever.

    BTW, I have yet to hear any developer at Blizzard talk about Demon Hunter classes outside of GC's one twitter comment, but the developers talk about revamped models nearly every time there's an interview.

    Why? Because people are constantly asking about them.
    First off, not the forum I said. I said the official World of Warcraft Forums, the ones run by Blizzard. No other forums count in this. Second, you've yet to hear them discuss something that's currently being kept secret, what a SHOCK! They haven't announced ANYTHING for the next expansion, why would they be discussing it in any interviews or tweets? As for them discussing the character models, they've already announced they were doing it. So, why not talk about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    They don't really have an option for the next expansion either. Again they're putting out revamped vanilla character models. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for anything else except a new class.
    They have any option they want. If they want to release an expansion that doesn't add a class or a new race, they are capable of doing so. If they want to add both, they can. Same with only having one or the other. As for the new models meaning they can't do anything other than a new class, that is the worst leap of logic I've heard yet. As stated earlier, they have an entire group of teams set aside for working on expansion stuff, which does not take away from the other teams. That means the new vanilla models team isn't effected... at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That would be a tinker class. It would be fun, unique, and given how monks were implemented, it would be well-balanced.

    Sounds like a no-brainer. Mainly because I can't honestly think of a superior candidate.
    Oh, here we go again. I'm insanely glad you don't work for Blizzard, as it's obvious all you care about is pushing this one class that YOU think is best, without looking at the over all picture. I was hoping we'd go through this thread without you pushing it, but I see I was mistaken.

  14. #154
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larynx View Post
    What about Alchemists?
    Similar technology theme that can be rolled into a Tinker class.

    Crypt Lord doesn't either. I'm not saying they should make a Crypt Lord class, but I'm not saying I'd be against it either.
    Unholy Blight. Though in WC3 it was called Locust Swarm.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 12:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Conscious View Post
    Yeah, but it's the least feasible as Engineering covers most of it's bases already.
    Engineering allows you to tank, heal, and do competitive DPS with technology/gadgets? Since when?

    If anything, Demon Hunter is the probable candidate.
    Warlock covers the Demon Hunter's bases FAR more than what you just said about Tinkers and Engineering.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 12:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Meiluy View Post
    So, by that logic, the fact that they were revamping all of the oldworld zones in Cata meant there was no way they'd add more zones. You keep thinking they can't do more races just because they're working on the old ones. That's a terrible way to look at things.
    Blizzard had to create new zones for level 81-85 content. You can't make an expansion and not create new leveling content for max level. Its a necessity.

    Your earlier reply tells me you are underestimating their resources, because you think they don't have enough for both. They do. And one again, you're doing this "Main team/side team" thing, which doesn't make sense. They're divided up by project, not quality. Some teams are working on the next expansion, some are working on content patch stuff, some are working on this, some are working on that. That's how a studio works. Team A is not necessarily any better than teams B, C or D.
    Again, if it took them almost a year to just finish Dwarves, do you seriously think they're going to have time to also do two completely new races on top of that? I'm not underestimating their ability, I'm simply using common sense. It takes time to develop 2 new races, and it takes time to redesign the 8 vanilla races. I'm also willing to bet that redeveloping the 8 vanilla races is a bigger job that developing 2 new races. If you were a developer, would you seriously have a team working on 2 new races when the most demanded item by your playerbase is the redesign of your original 8 races? Further, would you seriously have a team working on 2 new races when you know that those 2 new races would get completely overshadowed by the 8 redesigned vanilla races?

    Let's use some common sense here.


    You say that the new race came with a class because they only added one race? That is terrible logic. As said before, we got a new class more due to the fact we hadn't had one since Wrath than anything else. We got the neutral race Pandarens because people would throw a fit if they weren't playable, and they were "introduced" this expansion. They didn't have to add a second race because, being neutral, both sides gets the race, so no second race HAD to be added. What part of that don't you understand?
    Either way, Blizzard isn't just going to add a neutral race and be done with it when the previous expansion had a neutral race AND a class. Also you ignored the earlier point that a neutral race being added to the game would be completely overshadowed by new character models. It would be a complete waste of development time.


    First off, not the forum I said. I said the official World of Warcraft Forums, the ones run by Blizzard. No other forums count in this.
    LoL! Does it seriously matter which forum? Do you honestly believe that the results on the official forums would be any different than the results here?


    Second, you've yet to hear them discuss something that's currently being kept secret, what a SHOCK! They haven't announced ANYTHING for the next expansion, why would they be discussing it in any interviews or tweets? As for them discussing the character models, they've already announced they were doing it. So, why not talk about it?
    GC already discussed the Demon Hunter in tweets. When the 4th spec rumor was swirling around, Blizzard got asked it several times. In short, if a large portion of the WoW community is asking about it, they're going to ask the devs when they interview them. Class redesigns come up constantly all over the place because its highly demanded by the community.

    They have any option they want. If they want to release an expansion that doesn't add a class or a new race, they are capable of doing so.
    But they wouldn't, because such an expansion would be viewed as deficient compared to previous expansions.

    If they want to add both, they can. Same with only having one or the other. As for the new models meaning they can't do anything other than a new class, that is the worst leap of logic I've heard yet. As stated earlier, they have an entire group of teams set aside for working on expansion stuff, which does not take away from the other teams. That means the new vanilla models team isn't effected... at all.
    You think its bad logic that they wouldn't bother developing new races because they've spent considerable development time redesigning 8 vanilla races, and new races aren't really highly demanded by the playerbase?


    Oh, here we go again. I'm insanely glad you don't work for Blizzard, as it's obvious all you care about is pushing this one class that YOU think is best, without looking at the over all picture. I was hoping we'd go through this thread without you pushing it, but I see I was mistaken.
    Someone asked what class concept would be unique and original. I gave them the concept.

    Relax.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Blizzard had to create new zones for level 81-85 content. You can't make an expansion and not create new leveling content for max level. Its a necessity.



    Again, if it took them almost a year to just finish Dwarves, do you seriously think they're going to have time to also do two completely new races on top of that? I'm not underestimating their ability, I'm simply using common sense. It takes time to develop 2 new races, and it takes time to redesign the 8 vanilla races. I'm also willing to bet that redeveloping the 8 vanilla races is a bigger job that developing 2 new races. If you were a developer, would you seriously have a team working on 2 new races when the most demanded item by your playerbase is the redesign of your original 8 races? Further, would you seriously have a team working on 2 new races when you know that those 2 new races would get completely overshadowed by the 8 redesigned vanilla races?

    Let's use some common sense here.
    True, they needed to create 81-85 zones... that logic can be applied, just as well, to new races. Either way they have to spend effort making SOMETHING new, either class or race. So if they don't have the resources to make a new race, then they don't have the resources to make a new class (Which we've already discussed requires MORE resources than a race). Your own logic defeats you on that argument. And why do you keep using the length of time it takes them to complete dwarves as an indicator that the others aren't near completion as well? They are working on them all at the same time, not one at a time. If the dwarves would have been 100% at MoP launch, and the others only 80% complete (yes, speculation, but making an example), the statement that only the dwarves were ready is still correct, AND the others would be done by this point. Stop assuming that they take so much time to complete that we can't possibly have more races.




    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Either way, Blizzard isn't just going to add a neutral race and be done with it when the previous expansion had a neutral race AND a class. Also you ignored the earlier point that a neutral race being added to the game would be completely overshadowed by new character models. It would be a complete waste of development time.
    Why does what happened this past expansion dictate what has to happen with the next? It doesn't. As I said last post, they can choose to do whatever they want regarding what they give us. If anything, I'd say one new neutral race PLUS the new models for the old races sounds about right. And no, a new race would NOT be overshadowed by new models on existing races. Once again we enter the land of OPINION, and mine is new models don't have the draw that a new race does.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! Does it seriously matter which forum? Do you honestly believe that the results on the official forums would be any different than the results here?
    Yes, and I have two reasons.

    1: The official World of Warcraft forums have a larger, and more diverse, user base than the MMO Champion Forums.
    2: The World of Warcraft forums don't have a large amount of threads in which we've been bickering back and forth, so people are more likely to view the question on fresh terms.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    GC already discussed the Demon Hunter in tweets. When the 4th spec rumor was swirling around, Blizzard got asked it several times. In short, if a large portion of the WoW community is asking about it, they're going to ask the devs when they interview them. Class redesigns come up constantly all over the place because its highly demanded by the community.
    True, they've said a number of things, in the past, regarding several topics. Some of those things are in game, some of them aren't. You might notice that the same thing they said about Pandarens was also said about Demon Hunters... mainly that they were no plans for them to be in the game at the time. That's neither confirmation nor negation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    But they wouldn't, because such an expansion would be viewed as deficient compared to previous expansions.
    You sure about that? The example I gave about EQ covers that one pretty well. When that expansion came out, it out sold the others released at the time. Clearly THEY didn't think the expansion was deficient even though it added no new classes or races, just new zones to explore with more story. Blizzard has more people working on this than SOE had at the time, and they could very easily give us an expansion that focuses entirely on 91-95 content, and it would sell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You think its bad logic that they wouldn't bother developing new races because they've spent considerable development time redesigning 8 vanilla races, and new races aren't really highly demanded by the playerbase?
    I think it's bad logic to assume that because they are doing the remodels, they won't make new races for the expansion. You are not allowing for the possibility of new races because of something which HAS NO CONNECTION. Everything that is relating to the new Expansion is handled by a specific team to it. These new models are as of right now NOT connected to the new expansion, but rather their own thing. Until Blizzard announces them as a feature specific to the new expansion, they should be considered their own thing. As such, they have their own team, separate from the expansion team. So their existence takes NO resources from the expansion team. What part of that don't you understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Someone asked what class concept would be unique and original. I gave them the concept.

    Relax.
    I have one question for you, then. If this class concept is so original, why do so many people ask you what this class offers that isn't in engineering? Sounds to me like the originality you claim to have isn't actually there.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So now that 4th spec has been slapped down by Blizzard, and the new race candidates predicted by others look extremely lackluster, it appears more than ever that a new class is on the way.
    That makes no sense whatsoever.
    "Let's see. There are monkeys that evolved into men and monkeys that didn't. Just as well, there are men that remained men and men that evolved into something else. Do you really think humans are the ultimate form of evolution? How arrogant."
    --Kakurine, Evil Zone for PS1

  17. #157
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meiluy View Post
    True, they needed to create 81-85 zones... that logic can be applied, just as well, to new races. Either way they have to spend effort making SOMETHING new, either class or race. So if they don't have the resources to make a new race, then they don't have the resources to make a new class (Which we've already discussed requires MORE resources than a race). Your own logic defeats you on that argument. And why do you keep using the length of time it takes them to complete dwarves as an indicator that the others aren't near completion as well? They are working on them all at the same time, not one at a time. If the dwarves would have been 100% at MoP launch, and the others only 80% complete (yes, speculation, but making an example), the statement that only the dwarves were ready is still correct, AND the others would be done by this point. Stop assuming that they take so much time to complete that we can't possibly have more races.
    It can't be applied to races because Blizzard HAS to make new leveling content for max level players in an expansion. It doesn't need to make a new race for an expansion. One is a necessity, the other is not.





    Why does what happened this past expansion dictate what has to happen with the next? It doesn't. As I said last post, they can choose to do whatever they want regarding what they give us. If anything, I'd say one new neutral race PLUS the new models for the old races sounds about right. And no, a new race would NOT be overshadowed by new models on existing races. Once again we enter the land of OPINION, and mine is new models don't have the draw that a new race does.
    .

    Again you ignore common sense. Why would Blizzard sink development time into developing 1 new neutral race when they're working on 8 vanilla race remodels? Doesn't that seem kind of pointless when we both know that all the attention race-wise is going to be on the new models, and that all the future race concepts are lackluster?

    Worgen, Goblins, and Pandaren are the lowest played races in the game. You really think another new neutral race is going to shine in the next expansion when we have newly remodeled Humans, Orcs, Trolls, and Night Elves? Again, it would be a waste of developer time. Yeah, that's an opinion, but its a sound opinion that few would disagree with.



    Yes, and I have two reasons.

    1: The official World of Warcraft forums have a larger, and more diverse, user base than the MMO Champion Forums.
    2: The World of Warcraft forums don't have a large amount of threads in which we've been bickering back and forth, so people are more likely to view the question on fresh terms
    Actually the official forums isn't more diverse than these forums. These forums include inactive WoW players, and players from outside the US. On the US official forums, Eu players couldn't post their opinions because they wouldn't have an NA BNET account. This forum provides a much better sample of players than the official forum would. Also, its common sense that WoW players would prefer remodeled vanilla races to new races. The vanilla models are the most popular races in WoW. You honestly believe that a new race concept beats out Humans, Orcs, and the other vanilla races? C'mon now.




    True, they've said a number of things, in the past, regarding several topics. Some of those things are in game, some of them aren't. You might notice that the same thing they said about Pandarens was also said about Demon Hunters... mainly that they were no plans for them to be in the game at the time. That's neither confirmation nor negation.
    I would say that GCs response about DHs was pretty much a negation to them being included in the game. Pandaren were a given to eventually be included as a playable race.

    You sure about that? The example I gave about EQ covers that one pretty well. When that expansion came out, it out sold the others released at the time. Clearly THEY didn't think the expansion was deficient even though it added no new classes or races, just new zones to explore with more story. Blizzard has more people working on this than SOE had at the time, and they could very easily give us an expansion that focuses entirely on 91-95 content, and it would sell.
    Again, this isn't EQ, this is WoW. It's smarter to compare a future WoW expansions to other WoW expansions, not to an inferior game.

    I think it's bad logic to assume that because they are doing the remodels, they won't make new races for the expansion. You are not allowing for the possibility of new races because of something which HAS NO CONNECTION. Everything that is relating to the new Expansion is handled by a specific team to it. These new models are as of right now NOT connected to the new expansion, but rather their own thing. Until Blizzard announces them as a feature specific to the new expansion, they should be considered their own thing. As such, they have their own team, separate from the expansion team. So their existence takes NO resources from the expansion team. What part of that don't you understand?
    Um, remodeling the old vanilla models is just like designing new races for the game. Blizzard may be designing new skeletons for some of the old races, adding new animations, and more textures. So in essence Blizzard is designing 8 new races for the game.

    What part do you not understand? Whether or not these are considered part of the next expansion is pretty irrelevant. These remodels clearly take work and development time to complete. Work and development time that takes away from developing new races for the game. Again, this should be common sense.

    I have one question for you, then. If this class concept is so original, why do so many people ask you what this class offers that isn't in engineering? Sounds to me like the originality you claim to have isn't actually there.
    Just because people are ignorant about the Tinker doesn't mean that the class isn't original and unique. I mean, we're talking about people who cant differentiate between a profession from a class.

    The concept is highly unique and original. Please name another class in WoW that comes close to the tinker thematically. Please name another class that is as different from existing classes as the tinker. Good luck.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It can't be applied to races because Blizzard HAS to make new leveling content for max level players in an expansion. It doesn't need to make a new race for an expansion. One is a necessity, the other is not.
    I think my comparison was perfect, as they had the time to rework the entirety of Azeroth (make new player models) AND add new zones (new races) in the same expansion. By the way, the necessity in an expansion is new content. Your own logic for dictating we don't need a new race is easily applied to a new class too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again you ignore common sense. Why would Blizzard sink development time into developing 1 new neutral race when they're working on 8 vanilla race remodels? Doesn't that seem kind of pointless when we both know that all the attention race-wise is going to be on the new models, and that all the future race concepts are lackluster?

    Worgen, Goblins, and Pandaren are the lowest played races in the game. You really think another new neutral race is going to shine in the next expansion when we have newly remodeled Humans, Orcs, Trolls, and Night Elves? Again, it would be a waste of developer time. Yeah, that's an opinion, but its a sound opinion that few would disagree with.
    Least played races due to appearing later in the game lifespan when people have other characters already made. Your argument isn't incorrect as much as influenced by outside events, making them an unfair comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually the official forums isn't more diverse than these forums. These forums include inactive WoW players, and players from outside the US. On the US official forums, Eu players couldn't post their opinions because they wouldn't have an NA BNET account. This forum provides a much better sample of players than the official forum would. Also, its common sense that WoW players would prefer remodeled vanilla races to new races. The vanilla models are the most popular races in WoW. You honestly believe that a new race concept beats out Humans, Orcs, and the other vanilla races? C'mon now.
    And I disagree about it being common sense that people would prefer a new look on something they have compared to new gameplay/lore/story etc that comes with a new race. As someone posted either here or in the thread you linked (Yes, I read through a few posts) people will LOVE the new models... then promptly forget about them within a week. Much like the Cata redesigned zones, they quickly become remembered as normal, with nothing special about them. Why would Blizzard focus all their effort in something that people are going to only "ooh" and "ahh" over for a few months at most, as opposed to a new race or two, which will give people more options come character creation time. Also, plenty of people race change existing characters over to new races, and why would Blizzard say no to those people paying money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I would say that GCs response about DHs was pretty much a negation to them being included in the game. Pandaren were a given to eventually be included as a playable race.
    His responses regarding DHs are almost EXACTLY what he was saying about Pandaren back in BC and Wrath. The Pandaren were a joke race that only got included because the people demanded it. Don't argue against that, as it's part of their history (Started out as an April Fools joke, inserted in an expansion as a courtesy to the millions of fans who loved the joke and really wanted them in). They were NOT a given, and questions regarding them at panels and Blizzcon were generally treated with disdain up until a few years ago. I see much nicer reactions regarding DHs than we ever got for Pandaren prior to their announcement of MoP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, this isn't EQ, this is WoW. It's smarter to compare a future WoW expansions to other WoW expansions, not to an inferior game.
    EQ is the history upon which WoW was built. You really want to call the game that was the basis for the mechanics of most classes (rogue energy and combo points, mana, cast bars, 1.5 second global cooldown in general), and has lasted for 6 years longer than WoW, 'inferior'? Know your roots, boy, and show them respect. We would not have WoW if it wasn't for EQ. And as WoW has taken so much from EQ, it is the PERFECT example when referring to what Blizzard CAN do in regards to expansions. Keep in mind, EQ is still putting out expansions, their last one came out this past November.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Um, remodeling the old vanilla models is just like designing new races for the game. Blizzard may be designing new skeletons for some of the old races, adding new animations, and more textures. So in essence Blizzard is designing 8 new races for the game.

    What part do you not understand? Whether or not these are considered part of the next expansion is pretty irrelevant. These remodels clearly take work and development time to complete. Work and development time that takes away from developing new races for the game. Again, this should be common sense.
    Except they aren't reworking starting zones, they aren't adding/changing quests, they aren't designing new racial abilities, and they aren't adding new voices, jokes or flirts. The only thing they're doing is changing the models, changing/adding animations, and MAYBE making new skeletons (though I doubt that, as they didn't for Vol'Jin or Thrall when they got their remodel). Most development time goes into the stuff they are NOT doing for the remodels.

    And once again you keep on missing the point of my argument: They have different teams working on this remodel than they do on the expansion. This project has no effect on the expansion team! It does NOT take away any resources/development time/work/staff from the expansion team, who could very easily be working on races!

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Just because people are ignorant about the Tinker doesn't mean that the class isn't original and unique. I mean, we're talking about people who cant differentiate between a profession from a class.

    The concept is highly unique and original. Please name another class in WoW that comes close to the tinker thematically. Please name another class that is as different from existing classes as the tinker. Good luck.
    Well, all of your descriptions seem to lead people to think more of Engineering than a class, so maybe you should rework your entire approach. The problem is, most of the stuff you list has been modified and added to the game as either engineering devices/tinkers, or as racials. But every time someone points these out to you, you ignore them with the rebuttal "the Tinker is different, cause it does [insert unmodified ability, typically overpowered and nowhere near balanced for the game]"

    Monk: A class that specializes in unarmed strikes, as well as focusing their life energy, or "Chi" to allow them to summon up the power of the four "gods" that the Pandaren give faith to.

    Warlock: A class that specializes in harnessing the power of Demons, enslaving some to their will for the purpose of battle, and invoking the power of others for curses, blasts of fire or shadows, draining a foe's health, or even BECOMING a demon themselves for a small time.

    Druid: A class that specializes in harnessing the power of Nature, allowing them the gift of wildshape, and ability that grants them access to the power and forms of nature's form. They also use the abilities to grant them a selection of spells focused from sun and moon, and spells that heal wounds using the power of nature.

    Shaman: A class that specializes in harnessing the power of the Spirits... etc

    Hunter: A class focused around using a ranged weapon and using a wild animal tamed by the hunter themselves...etc

    There's five that are THEMATICALLY as unique as your Tinker class. Keep in mind, you challenge was for thematic uniqueness, not mechanic. I haven't played a Hunter or Shaman high enough level to be able to spruce up their entries. Keep in mind, each class, for the most part, has a unique Theme to them. DK's are the risen soldiers of old, using the power of death to hurt their foes while protecting their allies. Paladins are the holy soldiers, trained in the power of the Light to strike down evil, and save the innocent. Mages are the keepers of power arcane, summoning fire, ice or pure magical energy to their command. Rogues are the shadows at our back, either stealing our coin or stabbing us when we least expect it: luckily they can work for us just as easily.

  19. #159
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meiluy View Post
    I think my comparison was perfect, as they had the time to rework the entirety of Azeroth (make new player models) AND add new zones (new races) in the same expansion. By the way, the necessity in an expansion is new content. Your own logic for dictating we don't need a new race is easily applied to a new class too.
    Actually its not. We've had expansions where there is no new race. There's never been an expansion where Blizzard doesn't add content and additional levels for max level players.This comparison is actually worse than your Everquest comparison.

    Least played races due to appearing later in the game lifespan when people have other characters already made. Your argument isn't incorrect as much as influenced by outside events, making them an unfair comparison.
    Actually its due to new players almost always choosing that which they're most familiar with. That would be Humans and Elves since they look the most human on either faction. Blood Elves for example are by far the most popular race on the Horde, and they were introduced after the original 4 Horde races.

    So if your goal is to bring in new players, what would you do? Make the Human and Elf model look better, or bring in some crazy race that most people aren't even going to play? Seriously, what races are even left to be made into playable races? Ogres? Ethereal? Furlongs? You think anyone is just itching to get their hands on something like that instead of a better looking Human or Blood Elf model? Please.

    You see this thread;

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Alliance-race

    Guess which race is winning? Yeah, Elves. Mainly because they look like this;



    The vast majority of players want to look like hot and sexy people. Not bandaged mummies with energy coming out of them, or fat ugly ogres. Just how it is.

    Want to bet that if I make a Horde version and include the Vrykul, they'd win that poll as well?

    And I disagree about it being common sense that people would prefer a new look on something they have compared to new gameplay/lore/story etc that comes with a new race. As someone posted either here or in the thread you linked (Yes, I read through a few posts) people will LOVE the new models... then promptly forget about them within a week. Much like the Cata redesigned zones, they quickly become remembered as normal, with nothing special about them. Why would Blizzard focus all their effort in something that people are going to only "ooh" and "ahh" over for a few months at most, as opposed to a new race or two, which will give people more options come character creation time. Also, plenty of people race change existing characters over to new races, and why would Blizzard say no to those people paying money.
    So using that argument, why bother creating any new races at all since people are going to forget about them after a week? It works both ways. Either races interest people or they don't.

    Of course you go on to contradict your own argument in the same paragraph. So races matter now? Okay, so what would a race-changing player more likely to race change to? The most popular races in Warcraft, or some weird new race that they know nothing about?

    His responses regarding DHs are almost EXACTLY what he was saying about Pandaren back in BC and Wrath. The Pandaren were a joke race that only got included because the people demanded it. Don't argue against that, as it's part of their history (Started out as an April Fools joke, inserted in an expansion as a courtesy to the millions of fans who loved the joke and really wanted them in). They were NOT a given, and questions regarding them at panels and Blizzcon were generally treated with disdain up until a few years ago. I see much nicer reactions regarding DHs than we ever got for Pandaren prior to their announcement of MoP.
    I'm pretty sure that Blizzard said that Pandaren were planned to be the actual new races in TBC. How do you equate GC pretty much saying that there's no space for Demon Hunter as a class to a race that was almost considered for implementation numerous times?

    Here is an example of one of Blizzard's responses regarding Pandaren implementation;

    Katricia (Donna Anthony): "Maybe they will be found in the beta or retail version of the game and maybe they will be granted a special place in an expansion. Just imagine how exciting it will be to find one!" and "pandaren will not be a playable race ... at this time. Will they make cameo appearances in the game as NPCs? Some things are best left unanswered I think "
    http://www.wowpedia.org/History_of_pandaren_in_Warcraft

    That was from 2006.

    EQ is the history upon which WoW was built. You really want to call the game that was the basis for the mechanics of most classes (rogue energy and combo points, mana, cast bars, 1.5 second global cooldown in general), and has lasted for 6 years longer than WoW, 'inferior'? Know your roots, boy, and show them respect. We would not have WoW if it wasn't for EQ. And as WoW has taken so much from EQ, it is the PERFECT example when referring to what Blizzard CAN do in regards to expansions. Keep in mind, EQ is still putting out expansions, their last one came out this past November.
    Yeah, EQ is inferior to WoW on just about every level. Deal with it.


    Except they aren't reworking starting zones, they aren't adding/changing quests, they aren't designing new racial abilities, and they aren't adding new voices, jokes or flirts. The only thing they're doing is changing the models, changing/adding animations, and MAYBE making new skeletons (though I doubt that, as they didn't for Vol'Jin or Thrall when they got their remodel). Most development time goes into the stuff they are NOT doing for the remodels.
    Since we know next to nothing about the remodels, how do you know they aren't designing new racial abilities, new voices, jokes, or flirts? Also how do you know that the starting quests for the 8 original WoW races are going to remain the same after the events in MoP?

    Oh yeah, you don't.

    And once again you keep on missing the point of my argument: They have different teams working on this remodel than they do on the expansion. This project has no effect on the expansion team! It does NOT take away any resources/development time/work/staff from the expansion team, who could very easily be working on races!
    So when this remodel team isn't working on remodeling the old 8 WoW races, what are they doing? Are they sitting around playing ping pong? When the remodels are finished, is this entire team going to the unemployment line?


    Well, all of your descriptions seem to lead people to think more of Engineering than a class, so maybe you should rework your entire approach. The problem is, most of the stuff you list has been modified and added to the game as either engineering devices/tinkers, or as racials. But every time someone points these out to you, you ignore them with the rebuttal "the Tinker is different, cause it does [insert unmodified ability, typically overpowered and nowhere near balanced for the game]"
    Oh, you mean the argument when people say that these two abilities....

    Engineering Specialization: Engineering skill increased by 15.
    Engineering Upgrade: mproves other Tinker abilities with each level learned:
    Cluster Rockets - Larger Area.
    Pocket Factory - Builds Clockwerk Goblins more quickly.
    Robo-Goblin - Increases armor and Strength; enhances Demolish.

    Also gives bonus damage and increases the Tinker's movement speed.
    ...are the same abilities? Do I really need to rebut something that blatantly stupid?


    There's five that are THEMATICALLY as unique as your Tinker class. Keep in mind, you challenge was for thematic uniqueness, not mechanic. I haven't played a Hunter or Shaman high enough level to be able to spruce up their entries. Keep in mind, each class, for the most part, has a unique Theme to them. DK's are the risen soldiers of old, using the power of death to hurt their foes while protecting their allies. Paladins are the holy soldiers, trained in the power of the Light to strike down evil, and save the innocent. Mages are the keepers of power arcane, summoning fire, ice or pure magical energy to their command. Rogues are the shadows at our back, either stealing our coin or stabbing us when we least expect it: luckily they can work for us just as easily.
    I'm sorry, I meant concept classes, not classes that are already in the game. However, thank you for showing how Blizzard's goal with classes is to make them as distinct as possible. That was my point in regards to Demon Hunters and why such a class would never be implemented, yet a class like Tinkers which are unique and original have a strong chance to be implemented.

  20. #160
    I would rather have no new class/race and instead get model updates for the older races.

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