I don't see how we can avoid getting a new class in the next expansion.

[Razorice]

I don't think we're going to get a new race next expansion since new models are being introduced and I don't think Blizzard wants a new race to weaken the shine of new models. I would like to see a new class though, I enjoy trying out new classes :P

[Aquamonkey]

I wouldn't go that far, but a new class could work. I feel like it's unlikely because they had to expand our character slots just so people could add an 11th character on their servers for a monk. If they add a 12th class then they have to expand all the servers again so we have a 12th slot, in case someone has (or wants) 1 of each class.

That said I do think a mail wearer is a good choice, with the possibility of it having a plate wearing spec that would use int plate so it isn't holy paladin exclusive.

It was quite myopic of them to choose this over removing the realm limit (while keeping the account limit).

[Amerissis]

I don't see how we can avoid getting a new class in the next expansion.

Why would you want to?

[Pull My Finger]

"Avoid getting a new class"? What kind of wording is that? Sounds like avoiding herpes or something. People ...

[Monekop]

here's my thoughts on the new xpn, and I am lovin the ideas about a 4th spec - demon hunter esp seems to fit so well with the almost garanteed theme of the next xpn TBC mk II

If not 4th spec then, New Hero Class - Demon Hunter. This has been banded about a lot I know but it fits so well.
New Outland Continent - the whole place blew up - doubtful that only 1 "small" area survived, with phased redesign of existing Draenor 60-70 zone.
Exodar is now fixed (as per short story) and is updated as such. Silvermoon repaired and updated as such.
3rd Facton (ogres, birdy peeps, etc) - focusing on the rebirth of Draenor - they dont want alliance or horde on outland but they need Azeroth resources to pull it off. Horde (orcs) dont want to sever ties with their homeland. alliance dont want resources stolen. Small "Dark Portals" leading from starter zones into the current blank zones , inaccessable, that exist on Azeroth.

so far flight not enabled in TBC starter zones to avoid 3rd faction lvl 15-25 areas being exposed.

Possible whole new engine (wish list)

also - bringing equipment to the account level. Item Journal for any existing BoA item, heirloom or otherwise. Gold?

[Teriz]

Oh look, effectively the same thread from the same guy. For god's sake, pay attention to the first guy to reply to you, and understand we are not likely to get a new class next expansion. We've had this argument too many times for me to go in depth, but here's the basics: The new models will most likely be using the same skeletons, just higher poly count for the models themselves. That gives these people time to work on new models for the upcoming expansion as well, meaning we could just as likely have new races with the expansion as not. Keep in mind, the team working on the modeling is separate from the team working on the mechanics of a new race.

Do you have a source to back that up? Seems that the people responsible for race design and animation would be the team who would handle redoing the race design and animation of the original 8 vanilla races. Also we don't know how detailed these designs are going to be. There could be tattoos, sub-races, etc. Also, even if they use the same skeleton, they're doing 8 models and the Death Knight models to boot. That's a pretty big undertaking. In addition, players are already using these races for their main characters, so they have to look good or people are going to be ticked off. Wouldn't you use your main team for such an important task instead of some side team?

New class? Unlikely, as they're STILL trying to balance the new class, Monk, as well as the other classes from before. On top of this, right now they have to design entire tier sets (appearance and stat) for 11 classes, I don't see them adding a 12th this quickly after just adding the 11th. I honestly expect the last of the new classes to be added with the expansion after the next one, following the pattern we've got going of even numbered expansions adding classes.

Considering that balance resets every expansion, that really doesn't matter. Blizzard would be rebalancing the Monk class and the other classes regardless. Also, we could apply your same argument for a new race as well. Blizzard just introduced the Pandaren. Why would they introduce two new races? Adding two new races to the game would arguably be more work than adding a new class, since new races require new animations, starting zones, NPCs (if its an existing race like Goblins), armor, weapons, etc. Blizzard is obviously working on the vanilla models, which frankly would do more for the games longevity than two more races. Also there's plenty of untapped lore for the existing races that Blizzard hasn't utilized yet.

But you're going to ignore that, because you will ignore anything that doesn't fit your perfect little world.

I never ignore your posts (unless you're trolling). You simply don't like my answers.

---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 11:26 AM ----------

Are you suggesting that to allow a Tinker class to fit the theme of a burning legion expansion, they should use demon technology? That makes no sense from a class identity perspective and is shoehorning for the sake of shoehorning. People who want to play a Tech-based class will want to use Tech-based weaponry. Once you style it after demons, it's going to be some demon-engineer class, and that's just weird. Honestly, it's a worse idea than making a Demon Hunter class, which would at least make sense as a class.

It was simply a suggestion. A technology class wouldn't be required to use Demon tech, but the possibility is there.

And we already have a class that fights demons using demonic magic. They even have some of the DHs abilities.

[Deleted]

To much balancing issues, they wont do it. Heard it here first /thread.

[RicardoZ]

If a 'show piece' is necessary as you pitch it, would new models not fill that role perfectly while utilizing the same team who usually would be working on the previous races?

New races require a lot more work than new models. You not only need art and animations for the new race, you need a starting zone full of original art and animation, quests which require writers, scripting, programming, the introduction of new items. This also leads to having new racial abilities which must then be balanced...There's really no way to compare updated character to skins to getting a new race.

[Deleted]

Well if you want to get technical, since TBC, Blizzard has done something for both classes AND races.

TBC: 2 new races + Shaman and Paladin can now be played by both Horde and Alliance.
WotLK: 1 new class (DKs) + New cosmetic features for each race, including an "undead look" for DK races.
Cataclysm: 2 new races + New class combinations for the races.
MoP: 1 new neutral race + 1 new class.

So as you can see, Blizzard has consistently done things for both classes and races in each expansion. In the next expansion, we're more than likely getting remodeled vanilla races. That only leaves the class option, and we're not getting 4th spec for each class, so that really narrows the options quite a bit.

Now you're just clutching at straws. The only discernible clear pattern (so far), is there has been a new class every other expansion.

[Meiluy]

Do you have a source to back that up? Seems that the people responsible for race design and animation would be the team who would handle redoing the race design and animation of the original 8 vanilla races. Also we don't know how detailed these designs are going to be. There could be tattoos, sub-races, etc. Also, even if they use the same skeleton, they're doing 8 models and the Death Knight models to boot. That's a pretty big undertaking. In addition, players are already using these races for their main characters, so they have to look good or people are going to be ticked off. Wouldn't you use your main team for such an important task instead of some side team?

What do you want a source to back up? That different people in the company design the mechanics of a race than those who do the models? The art asset side has ALWAYS been a different group than those who do the mechanics in game. As far as the new models using the same skeletons, that is mainly speculation based upon newer mounts using the same skeletons as older mounts, even with much higher poly counts. The skeletons move fine, for the most part, and even what they might change would be minor in comparison to making an entirely new skeleton.

Tattoos are just going to be a skin application, which works exactly like the NE markings: no influence on the polygons. Doubt we'll see subraces, as we've never had them for ANY race, not even the new ones. The closest we'd see would be a skintone for the dwarves that represents the Dark Irons. DK's have the same models as their original race as far as design goes, with an eye effect and different color options. Those don't effect the model designs as much as you seem to think.

Keep in mind they've been doing this since before MoP, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're already done. We wouldn't see them til the expansion, as it's too big a feature to be a simple 5.* feature.

Considering that balance resets every expansion, that really doesn't matter. Blizzard would be rebalancing the Monk class and the other classes regardless. Also, we could apply your same argument for a new race as well. Blizzard just introduced the Pandaren. Why would they introduce two new races? Adding two new races to the game would arguably be more work than adding a new class, since new races require new animations, starting zones, NPCs (if its an existing race like Goblins), armor, weapons, etc. Blizzard is obviously working on the vanilla models, which frankly would do more for the games longevity than two more races. Also there's plenty of untapped lore for the existing races that Blizzard hasn't utilized yet.

Balancing a new race is nowhere near as difficult as balancing a new class. Races have about 5 racial traits. Classes have around 50 to 60 abilities (active and passive), talents, glyphs and their three specs to balance, never mind their mechanic. That is a hell of a lot more to design than a race as far as mechanics go. And new starting zones? You mean like the new starting zones we've gotten for EVERY EXPANSION? Those are par for the course, at this point. As far as the animations, a new race requires an animation set for each class: 22 Animation sets (11 Classes x 2 genders). A new class requires an animation set for each race: 26 Animation sets (13 races x 2 Genders). New class would be more intensive to do new animations for than new race. And yes, before you say it, I know that a new class might not be available to all the races, but the same argument can be used against new races being able to do all the classes. To cut off the claim of multiplying the race entry by two for two races, who ever said we'd be getting two? I have no doubt if we get a new race, it will be neutral like the Pandarens, and able to pick a side at the end of a starting zone.

One last thing on this comment: New models for existing races will do less for the games longevity than a new race. New appearances have never outweighed new content.

I never ignore your posts (unless you're trolling). You simply don't like my answers.

You don't ignore full posts, you just ignore arguments against you that you can't come up with valid counter arguments. You brush it off as "irrelevant", or don't reply at all. I have never once seen you acknowledge when someone has proven your statement wrong, which is why I seem to be so focused on debating this with you.

[mvaliz]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - adding a new class is adding a WHOLE new set of headaches that will NEVER GO AWAY.

The reasons are simple:

1) PVP Balance: That's going to be something that's forever. Change one class, you effect them all...
2) PVE Balance: Same as above... but this time involves making one class OP compared to another
3) Tier Loot Design: You're now adding yet one more set of PVP and PVE tier armor that needs custom designing... from now until the servers shut down.
4) Roster issues: There's already 11 classes... and 10 man raiding is currently the most popular form of progression. This means guaranteed ONE class sits out. Care to make that 2 now?
5) Making them unique: They have to make their mechanics feel unique compared to every other class mechanic in the game while using the same base engine.
6) Giving them new skills every expansion: Same as PVP/PVE balance and "making them Unique" above.

New classes are going to be VERY VERY far and few between when made for expansions simply because every class is not just content - but content you have to balance, adjust and work on forever and ever and ever until the servers shut down.

[Teriz]

What do you want a source to back up? That different people in the company design the mechanics of a race than those who do the models? The art asset side has ALWAYS been a different group than those who do the mechanics in game. As far as the new models using the same skeletons, that is mainly speculation based upon newer mounts using the same skeletons as older mounts, even with much higher poly counts. The skeletons move fine, for the most part, and even what they might change would be minor in comparison to making an entirely new skeleton.

I wanted a source showing that a separate team was working on the new models instead of the team that does standard races. In any case, the art asset team also does new races, and we have no confirmation that Blizzard isn't going to add new animations, skeletons, etc. to the old races. They'd probably have to, since old animations probably wouldn't work with a simple reskin. Not to mention that a simple reskin wouldn't have taken them this long to complete.

Keep in mind they've been doing this since before MoP, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're already done. We wouldn't see them til the expansion, as it's too big a feature to be a simple 5.* feature.

I seriously doubt they're finished, considering they only had dwarves done recently.

The point is this; Clearly redoing the original 8 races is a taxing endeavor for Blizzard. So much so that I seriously doubt we're seeing new races next expansion. I also HIGHLY doubt Blizzard has some B team working on them, since redoing established races is a bigger deal than adding new races.

Balancing a new race is nowhere near as difficult as balancing a new class. Races have about 5 racial traits. Classes have around 50 to 60 abilities (active and passive), talents, glyphs and their three specs to balance, never mind their mechanic. That is a hell of a lot more to design than a race as far as mechanics go. And new starting zones? You mean like the new starting zones we've gotten for EVERY EXPANSION? Those are par for the course, at this point. As far as the animations, a new race requires an animation set for each class: 22 Animation sets (11 Classes x 2 genders). A new class requires an animation set for each race: 26 Animation sets (13 races x 2 Genders). New class would be more intensive to do new animations for than new race. And yes, before you say it, I know that a new class might not be available to all the races, but the same argument can be used against new races being able to do all the classes. To cut off the claim of multiplying the race entry by two for two races, who ever said we'd be getting two? I have no doubt if we get a new race, it will be neutral like the Pandarens, and able to pick a side at the end of a starting zone.

Yeah, I said TWO races, not one. Again, I seriously doubt Blizzard would expend resources developing a new race when they have to redesign 8 races that people are already playing as.

One last thing on this comment: New models for existing races will do less for the games longevity than a new race. New appearances have never outweighed new content.

Wrong. The old races make the game look dated to new players. If you're just starting WoW and 8 out of the 12 races in the game are using 2004 graphics, its going to be off putting, and may even turn you off from playing the game. Those race models are the first ingame graphics you see in WoW, and the original 8 races are on the top of the race selection screen.

Modernized character models help the game feel up to date, attracts new players, and may get veteran players to try another race. In my case, I refuse to play as a Dwarf and a male human because they're models are so terrible. I also rolled a Panda Monk because the Human models look so dated that it doesnt do the new class' spell animations justice. i mean, the damn Keg from Keg smash probably has more graphic detail in it than the entire human model. Don't even get me started on how bad old models look with newer armor.

I can't imagine that I'm alone in feeling that way. The majority of players in WoW play Humans. I think it would help the game's longevity quite a bit if the most popular race in the game didn't look like a collection of blocky polygons.

---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 11:50 PM ----------

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - adding a new class is adding a WHOLE new set of headaches that will NEVER GO AWAY.

The reasons are simple:

1) PVP Balance: That's going to be something that's forever. Change one class, you effect them all...
2) PVE Balance: Same as above... but this time involves making one class OP compared to another
3) Tier Loot Design: You're now adding yet one more set of PVP and PVE tier armor that needs custom designing... from now until the servers shut down.
4) Roster issues: There's already 11 classes... and 10 man raiding is currently the most popular form of progression. This means guaranteed ONE class sits out. Care to make that 2 now?
5) Making them unique: They have to make their mechanics feel unique compared to every other class mechanic in the game while using the same base engine.
6) Giving them new skills every expansion: Same as PVP/PVE balance and "making them Unique" above.

New classes are going to be VERY VERY far and few between when made for expansions simply because every class is not just content - but content you have to balance, adjust and work on forever and ever and ever until the servers shut down.

1+2. PvE and PvP balance constantly changes from patch to patch and expansion to expansion. History has shown us that balance isn't going to stop Blizzard from adding content to the game.

3. And this is a big deal because? Blizzard just added even more armor sets via challenge gear. This leads me to believe that their teams aren't overly taxed by having to design armor. Also since Blizzard is making bucketloads of cash, I seriously doubt the extra work is killing them.

4. If there was only 12 people in WoW and each one was playing a different class, you'd have a point.

5. They did just fine with DKs and Monks. I have little doubt they can do it again.

6. A lot of that falls in what type of class is implemented. A unique class like Tinkers/Technicians/Inventors would have no problem feeling unique from existing classes, no matter how many more abilities they add to it.

[Meiluy]

I wanted a source showing that a separate team was working on the new models instead of the team that does standard races. In any case, the art asset team also does new races, and we have no confirmation that Blizzard isn't going to add new animations, skeletons, etc. to the old races. They'd probably have to, since old animations probably wouldn't work with a simple reskin. Not to mention that a simple reskin wouldn't have taken them this long to complete.

Why would old animations not work for newer models? The way a lot of the mounts are done prove that wrong, as they're still using netherdrake skeletons for standard drake models, such as the ones in Cata, and those dragons had a MUCH higher poly count than the original netherdrakes. Also the new crane mounts use the same skeletons as the Hawkstrider/plainstrider mounts, with a much higher quality model as well. You're assuming they're making totally new skeletons for all 8, when the existing skeletons work just as well, or could possibly be used as a base for the new ones.

I seriously doubt they're finished, considering they only had dwarves done recently.

Got a source for that? Last I heard the Dwarves were finished in time to roll out with MoP's launch, which was 6 months ago. I doubt the rest of them are too far behind, as it doesn't make sense for them to be working on only one at a time.

The point is this; Clearly redoing the original 8 races is a taxing endeavor for Blizzard. So much so that I seriously doubt we're seeing new races next expansion. I also HIGHLY doubt Blizzard has some B team working on them, since redoing established races is a bigger deal than adding new races.

I actually would put money on us seeing the new models next expansion. I don't think Blizzard has a so called "B Team" in their departments, just each one specialized on particular projects, and it wouldn't be surprising to have the team working on expansion specific resources separate from the rest of the standard employees. It keeps the information tighter, and less likely to be leaked. Keep in mind, they've had the theme of the expansion, and whatever races or classes that will be added planned for a while now, as we're probably about a year and a half away from release (following their standard release pattern of every two years).

Yeah, I said TWO races, not one. Again, I seriously doubt Blizzard would expend resources developing a new race when they have to redesign 8 races that people are already playing as.

That's clearly an assumption. The Pandaren race proves that a neutral race works well, so the next race could be neutral like them. As I've said, designing a new race entails multiple departments while the new models for the old races requires only one. They have MULTIPLE art asset teams, shown in a number of behind the scenes on Collector Edition DVDs, and could have one or two focused on the new models while another works on the assets for a new race.

Wrong. The old races make the game look dated to new players. If you're just starting WoW and 8 out of the 12 races in the game are using 2004 graphics, its going to be off putting, and may even turn you off from playing the game. Those race models are the first ingame graphics you see in WoW, and the original 8 races are on the top of the race selection screen.

Modernized character models help the game feel up to date, attracts new players, and may get veteran players to try another race. In my case, I refuse to play as a Dwarf and a male human because they're models are so terrible. I also rolled a Panda Monk because the Human models look so dated that it doesnt do the new class' spell animations justice. i mean, the damn Keg from Keg smash probably has more graphic detail in it than the entire human model. Don't even get me started on how bad old models look with newer armor.

I can't imagine that I'm alone in feeling that way. The majority of players in WoW play Humans. I think it would help the game's longevity quite a bit if the most popular race in the game didn't look like a collection of blocky polygons.

No, not wrong. Right now the people are leaving not because they don't like the old models, but rather because of lack of content to keep their interest. A new race (with new starting zone) is more likely to bring them back than updated models alone. THAT is what will deal with the longevity more than just updated models for already existing races.

I have a few human characters myself. I agree that their models are terrible compared to the Worgen and the Pandaren. New models for them will be appreciated, but I'm not going to consider rerolling one of my many characters human because of a better look. Give me a new race, however, and I'll consider rerolling something to have one of that race, and to experience their storyline. I know I'm not the only one out there who has made new characters to experience the new races, as several of my guildies did it for both Worgen and Pandaren when those expansions came out. Heck, we have one guildy who has three mages because he loves the class, but wanted to play with the new races. If they add a new race that can be a mage, I think he'll probably end up having four mages on that server.

Right now most of our arguments stem from opinions. We will have to agree to disagree. But there are some parts we state based on fact. The fact of the matter is, the only established pattern so far is that we only get new classes on even number expansions. They could break that (we hardly have a fair sample size), but I doubt they will.

[Teriz]

Why would old animations not work for newer models? The way a lot of the mounts are done prove that wrong, as they're still using netherdrake skeletons for standard drake models, such as the ones in Cata, and those dragons had a MUCH higher poly count than the original netherdrakes. Also the new crane mounts use the same skeletons as the Hawkstrider/plainstrider mounts, with a much higher quality model as well. You're assuming they're making totally new skeletons for all 8, when the existing skeletons work just as well, or could possibly be used as a base for the new ones.

The old animations won't work because some of them are awful. Human male running animation immediately comes to mind.
Check out the new Vol'Jin model;



Check out his standing, walking, and running animations. They are quite a bit different than the player-based troll animations. Now both models do use the same skeleton, but the animation on Vol'Jin is superior to what you're seeing currently on player models. Its not surprising since currently female troll models can't blink. So in some models, new animations have to be added to have them match other races. So no, the older animations aren't going to work in all cases. They're going to need a revamp as well.

You can go to Wowhead and pull up the in-game troll animations.

Got a source for that? Last I heard the Dwarves were finished in time to roll out with MoP's launch, which was 6 months ago. I doubt the rest of them are too far behind, as it doesn't make sense for them to be working on only one at a time.

New models were announced in October 2011. Blizzard stated that Dwarves should be done by MoP launch. That's almost a year. Clearly the models are taking a long time to complete. Which again makes me doubt that they'd be working on this and new races at the same time, since the old model revamps are probably the most requested feature right now.

I actually would put money on us seeing the new models next expansion. I don't think Blizzard has a so called "B Team" in their departments, just each one specialized on particular projects, and it wouldn't be surprising to have the team working on expansion specific resources separate from the rest of the standard employees. It keeps the information tighter, and less likely to be leaked. Keep in mind, they've had the theme of the expansion, and whatever races or classes that will be added planned for a while now, as we're probably about a year and a half away from release (following their standard release pattern of every two years).

That's fine. My point is that if Blizzard is using its resources to make these new race models for the 8 original races, where do they have time to create 2 completely new races for the next expansion? That's my point.

That's clearly an assumption. The Pandaren race proves that a neutral race works well, so the next race could be neutral like them. As I've said, designing a new race entails multiple departments while the new models for the old races requires only one. They have MULTIPLE art asset teams, shown in a number of behind the scenes on Collector Edition DVDs, and could have one or two focused on the new models while another works on the assets for a new race.

The difference is that the Pandarens came with a new class as well. It wasn't just the Pandaren by themselves. Clearly Blizzard realized that just a new neutral race wasn't going to be enough to sell a new expansion. They needed either another race, or a new class, and they released the new class along with the Pandaren race.

For a new expansion, you're going to need either 2 races or a new class. Or you could do what they just did in MoP and bring out another neutral race and a new class. Personally, I believe that new races are going to be the revamped character models, and the new class is the new expansion feature. It just makes sense.

No, not wrong. Right now the people are leaving not because they don't like the old models, but rather because of lack of content to keep their interest. A new race (with new starting zone) is more likely to bring them back than updated models alone. THAT is what will deal with the longevity more than just updated models for already existing races.

Again wrong. The most requested feature right now is the revamped vanilla races. If you did a poll right now of what the playerbase would prefer, I'd be willing to bet money that the revamped vanilla models would beat out 2 new races by a hefty margin. Go ahead, make the poll. People are more invested in the original 8 races than any proposed new race.

Right now most of our arguments stem from opinions. We will have to agree to disagree. But there are some parts we state based on fact. The fact of the matter is, the only established pattern so far is that we only get new classes on even number expansions. They could break that (we hardly have a fair sample size), but I doubt they will.

Blizzard broke the class pattern. It seems only fair that they'd break the class pattern as well.

[Meiluy]

The old animations won't work because some of them are awful. Human male running animation immediately comes to mind.
Check out the new Vol'Jin model;

DELETED FOR POST SIZE

Check out his standing, walking, and running animations. They are quite a bit different than the player-based troll animations. Now both models do use the same skeleton, but the animation on Vol'Jin is superior to what you're seeing currently on player models. Its not surprising since currently female troll models can't blink. So in some models, new animations have to be added to have them match other races. So no, the older animations aren't going to work in all cases. They're going to need a revamp as well.

You can go to Wowhead and pull up the in-game troll animations.

Yes, there would be new animations. That was a given, especially after Vol'Jin's update. But we were discussing SKELETON, which doesn't need to change. They only need to modify the animations (and add new ones), which, once again, is expected to bring them in line with the newer races.

New models were announced in October 2011. Blizzard stated that Dwarves should be done by MoP launch. That's almost a year. Clearly the models are taking a long time to complete. Which again makes me doubt that they'd be working on this and new races at the same time, since the old model revamps are probably the most requested feature right now.

Well, if only one team is working on them, I would expect them to take some time. Keep in mind, they do entire expansions in about three years, and that has a lot more resources than the 8 initial races alone. However, I would also expect them to be done by this next expansion, as three years is enough for an expansion, it should be plenty for 16 models (8 races x 2 Genders)

That's fine. My point is that if Blizzard is using its resources to make these new race models for the 8 original races, where do they have time to create 2 completely new races for the next expansion? That's my point.

One or two teams working on this would not detract from an expansion's team. They could still very easily give us a new race or two with this next expansion. You are clearly underestimating their resources if you think the one or two teams working on this model revamp would detract from an expansion's team and their ability to add races.

The difference is that the Pandarens came with a new class as well. It wasn't just the Pandaren by themselves. Clearly Blizzard realized that just a new neutral race wasn't going to be enough to sell a new expansion. They needed either another race, or a new class, and they released the new class along with the Pandaren race.

For a new expansion, you're going to need either 2 races or a new class. Or you could do what they just did in MoP and bring out another neutral race and a new class. Personally, I believe that new races are going to be the revamped character models, and the new class is the new expansion feature. It just makes sense.

Really? You think that anything new isn't enough to sell an expansion? Tell that to Everquest, which has had expansions that only added areas, no level increases, classes or races. That stuff sold like hotcakes back then. However, if we're sticking with WoW, keep in mind the only reason we were getting two races each before was for faction balance. Which is why the neutral factions work, since after a starting zone, the player can pick which side they want to end up on. Therefore the factions remain balanced (options wise, not population wise). As for the one race being the reason we got a new class, I don't think that's the case. We had just had an expansion where we didn't get a class, so I think they planned on giving us a class for the fourth expansion regardless.

Again wrong. The most requested feature right now is the revamped vanilla races. If you did a poll right now of what the playerbase would prefer, I'd be willing to bet money that the revamped vanilla models would beat out 2 new races by a hefty margin. Go ahead, make the poll. People are more invested in the original 8 races than any proposed new race.

Do you have any proof that the most requested feature is revamped vanilla races? That sounds entirely projected. I see more threads requesting Demon Hunter class, more Dungeons instead of Scenarios, removal of LFR, changing LFR to queue for Normal and Heroic modes, etc than I see for any model changes. By the way, since you're the one making such an absurd claim and refusing to back down, the burden of proof falls on YOU, not me. So, start up that poll in the official forums asking which people would prefer, updated models of vanilla races or two new races, then put the link to it here. Try not to influence people's decision in the thread, just post the question and the poll, and we'll see what we get.

Blizzard broke the class pattern. It seems only fair that they'd break the class pattern as well.

Yes, they broke a pattern. That doesn't mean they will definitely do it again. "Being Fair" has nothing to do with it, as they had no real option for this expansion. If they'd not given us the Pandaren race but let us explore Pandaria, there would have been a major backlash.

[wdh1974]

the next expansion must truly change WOW on a HUGE level if they want to bring all those lost subs back, its gota be BIG BIG BIG.

[Drilnos]

Before Cataclysm, people were gushing about how great the updated classic zones would be and how it was about time flying was allowed in the old world. Literally within a week of the expansion's launch the same people were acting like it had always been that way and looking for something new. Nowadays the expansion gets lambasted for the fact that endgame, current content was sacrificed to gussy up the Vanilla zones.

New models on old races are the sort of things that people rabidly look forward to and promptly forget all about once they're in. You don't get any gameplay out of a new character model. You can't really admire it when you're putting gear of varying graphical quality all over it and actually, you know, playing the game. It's just there.

This isn't to say that there aren't merits to redoing the models, or that they shouldn't redo them. There are, and they are. But there's no way in hell they're going to try to pretend it's the same thing as adding a new race or class when the time comes. It just plain is not a selling feature. The fact that a game made after 2004 looks like a game made after 2004 isn't a feature, it's an expectation.

[Talen]

Before Cataclysm, people were gushing about how great the updated classic zones would be and how it was about time flying was allowed in the old world. Literally within a week of the expansion's launch the same people were acting like it had always been that way and looking for something new. Nowadays the expansion gets lambasted for the fact that endgame, current content was sacrificed to gussy up the Vanilla zones.

No. It wasn't. Blizzard did that all by itself. MOst of what wnet into Catcslym as new content...should have been end game content. It had nothing to do with gussying up Vanilla zones.

Blizzard just did a reboot when a sharp tweak was needed. The old stories, the old quests, the old content needed to improved and streamlined.....not replaced. Blizzard, as a result, spent a lot of time and effort on content relatively few people would experience and that, in turn, left the end game empty.

EJL

[Poochy]

Before Cataclysm, people were gushing about how great the updated classic zones would be and how it was about time flying was allowed in the old world. Literally within a week of the expansion's launch the same people were acting like it had always been that way and looking for something new. Nowadays the expansion gets lambasted for the fact that endgame, current content was sacrificed to gussy up the Vanilla zones.

New models on old races are the sort of things that people rabidly look forward to and promptly forget all about once they're in. You don't get any gameplay out of a new character model. You can't really admire it when you're putting gear of varying graphical quality all over it and actually, you know, playing the game. It's just there.

This isn't to say that there aren't merits to redoing the models, or that they shouldn't redo them. There are, and they are. But there's no way in hell they're going to try to pretend it's the same thing as adding a new race or class when the time comes. It just plain is not a selling feature. The fact that a game made after 2004 looks like a game made after 2004 isn't a feature, it's an expectation.

Agree with that. That's what blizz has been saying, no matter how they fix/revamp some things, like old world or classes or races, no matter how polished people still consider it old and it doesn't attract them. Nice fix for people currently playing, but isn't the same thing as something new, which is what GC said, people expect new systems.

[Rotted]

not that is a bad thing,

Unless its a tinker

THEN BURN