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  1. #201
    [QUOTE=Teriz;21310088]Actually no Tinker or Alchemist abilities are present in WoW. The only one that comes close is an NPC ability from a boss in the Brawler's guild.

    Demon Hunters on the other hand have all of its abilities stripped. Rogues have Evasion. Priests had Mana Burn. Warlocks have Immolation and Metamorphosis.


    I not gonna argue the point blizzard don't have to make class like w3 tho players may want that but they may change it to feel more wow like we never no.
    And demon hunter are the most request class
    And class are based the theme

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    1. If Blizzard is using its time to redo the 8 vanilla races, and vanilla races require more effort than new races, why would they create 2 new races on top of that? Why wouldn't they put all of their efforts behind remaking the 8 vanilla races?
    Who says there's going to be 2 new races? 8 Vanilla is a lot (maybe 10 with TBC revamps included). They could make a Neutral race on top. Why make a new race at all? It would be in the style of the revamps and still be relevant to the work they're doing. They're making all armor sets refit the classic models, with that system in place they might as well work in a new race. The only big hurdle is new animations. TBH though, character revamps on its own is enough to draw people back.

    2. If Blizzard is spending a great deal of time creating races, what else could they do as a new feature for the game? In the past, Blizzard has used races or classes as major selling points. With races out of the question due to Blizzard remaking over 8 of them, the only thing left is a new class. Right?
    Plenty of things, including completely new systems put in place that have nothing to do with Race or Class. Like my earlier profession example. Path of the Titans 2.0 perhaps?

    Keep in mind, New Races are not what draw people to play WoW. They're icing on the cake. Even you linked that graph showing a majority of players are Human and Elf players. While it is a new feature, it's not going to make people start or stop playing the game. Even the Panda haters ended up playing MoP.

    3.If 2 new races are introduced, and the Vanilla races are postponed, people will be quite upset, and wonder why Blizzard wasted resources on new races instead of fixing the most popular ones. Further, if both are introduced at the same time, the new races would be completely overshadowed by the older races for obvious reasons. Finally, the candidates for new races are lackluster compared to previous races that were implemented.
    Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Same goes with any new feature that's been anticipated. The same argument could have been said with Pandarens and Monk class implemented at the same time, that combo overshadows making Monks using existing races. It doesn't hold water. If we get Revamp + new Race, it's all for the good and people will accept it all as what it is, not for what it should be or could be. Even people have come to accept Pandarens, even if they revile the 'cartoony' playable race.

    The revamps work for your existing characters. The new race appeals to starting something new. It's ultimately going to hit different audiences, and saying that there is a major conflict with the concept is simply focusing on a narrow aspect which ultimately has no bearing on the outcome of how people play the game. If I were limited to creating only ONE character in WoW, then I could see where you come from. However, this game promotes playing alts and making any/every race you want, so really there is no conflict of interest.

  3. #203
    I doubt it. You would need entire new graphical effects, possibly animations, lore and design when they have already said that they are focusing a lot on revamping the race models. I expect 1 or 2 new races tbh but even that is pushing it, the old race revamp is enough. Adding a new class is a huge commitment to the game whereas a new race or updating models is significantly easier to design.

  4. #204
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Haven2011;21310196]
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually no Tinker or Alchemist abilities are present in WoW. The only one that comes close is an NPC ability from a boss in the Brawler's guild.

    Demon Hunters on the other hand have all of its abilities stripped. Rogues have Evasion. Priests had Mana Burn. Warlocks have Immolation and Metamorphosis.


    I not gonna argue the point blizzard don't have to make class like w3 tho players may want that but they may change it to feel more wow like we never no.
    And demon hunter are the most request class
    And class are based the theme
    Demon Hunters have been the most requested class but they've been passed over twice, and weren't a new class during the Burning Crusade. TBC was the perfect expansion to release a Demon Hunter class, but it didn't happen. That speaks volumes.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    Demon Hunters have been the most requested class but they've been passed over twice, and weren't a new class during the Burning Crusade. TBC was the perfect expansion to release a Demon Hunter class, but it didn't happen. That speaks volumes.
    It does. It says they weren't ready for new classes when they hadn't even properly balanced the ones they had. They even had to give Paladins and Shamans to the opposing factions due to the imbalances between the two, and it was during a time when class balance was being done in a round-robin style 'flavour of the month', with a balance patch focusing on one class at a time.

  6. #206
    High Overlord Gren's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Teriz;21310536]
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven2011 View Post

    Demon Hunters have been the most requested class but they've been passed over twice, and weren't a new class during the Burning Crusade. TBC was the perfect expansion to release a Demon Hunter class, but it didn't happen. That speaks volumes.
    If there is a possible return of the Legion in the next expac a Demon Hunter would be a good fit. As far as new races, I think not. They have enough on their plate with converting the older playable races to the new models, which I look forward to with much excitement.
    Cthulhu 2016, why vote for a lesser evil

  7. #207
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Who says there's going to be 2 new races? 8 Vanilla is a lot (maybe 10 with TBC revamps included). They could make a Neutral race on top. Why make a new race at all? It would be in the style of the revamps and still be relevant to the work they're doing. They're making all armor sets refit the classic models, with that system in place they might as well work in a new race. The only big hurdle is new animations. TBH though, character revamps on its own is enough to draw people back.
    Because the major expansion feature isn't going to be something we've known about for years.

    Plenty of things, including completely new systems put in place that have nothing to do with Race or Class. Like my earlier profession example. Path of the Titans 2.0 perhaps?

    Keep in mind, New Races are not what draw people to play WoW. They're icing on the cake. Even you linked that graph showing a majority of players are Human and Elf players. While it is a new feature, it's not going to make people start or stop playing the game. Even the Panda haters ended up playing MoP.
    It's clear that the fundamental disagreement here is that you don't view classes or races as signature expansion features. I do, since they've been signature features of each expansion since the first one. I guess on this one, we'll have to agree to disagree.



    Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Same goes with any new feature that's been anticipated. The same argument could have been said with Pandarens and Monk class implemented at the same time, that combo overshadows making Monks using existing races. It doesn't hold water. If we get Revamp + new Race, it's all for the good and people will accept it all as what it is, not for what it should be or could be. Even people have come to accept Pandarens, even if they revile the 'cartoony' playable race.
    Actually it's not the same. In the race example, the new race doesn't compare to the old races at all. Everyone's attention will be focused on the model revamps, and the new race will be almost completely ignored. It's already a known fact that Humans and Elves are by far the most popular races in the game. You put a remodeled Human or Elf next to some weird bottom tier race and the vast majority of people aren't going to care.

    However, add a new class alongside those new races, and it's a different matter entirely. People will want to try the new class alongside their new race models. They'll be more apt to reroll to check out the new animations of their favorite classic race and so forth.

    In short, a new race conflicts with the revamped old races. A new class does not.

  8. #208
    I never said it wasn't a signature expansion feature. When they are present, they are definitely a signature feature. They are important to presenting a new expansion.

    However, that being said they are not necessary in every expansion. I very much believe that they can create new features or spin the revamps in a way that makes things interesting again. While it may not be new, every expansion has opened up new classes. TBC gave Shamans and Paladins to the opposite faction, and I knew many people who changed their mains to the 'new' class. Death Knights came in Wrath. Cataclysm opened up new Race/Class combos, which was touted as a prominent feature.

    Actually it's not the same. In the race example, the new race doesn't compare to the old races at all. Everyone's attention will be focused on the model revamps, and the new race will be almost completely ignored. It's already a known fact that Humans and Elves are by far the most popular races in the game. You put a remodeled Human or Elf next to some weird bottom tier race and the vast majority of people aren't going to care.
    Not true. Cataclysm is a prime example of this. They opened up Race/Class combos while also introducing the Goblins and Worgens. You're pretty much saying that the much better looking Goblins prevented people making Tauren Paladins. We all know this isn't true. People will make Goblins AND Tauren Paladins if they choose to do so. I made a bunch of new alts in Cataclysm with RAF (NE Mage, Dwarf Shaman) as well as Worgen (DK, Hunter).

    While I agree it would take away from the hype of a new race, the character revamps are also something that people are looking forward to for their existing characters. It doesn't mean someone who's always hated the look of the Dwarf will now start playing a Dwarf. As awesome as they can look, they're still nothing new and there is no great incentive for rolling new characters. A new race will ultimately be something completely different.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-05-31 at 11:12 PM.

  9. #209
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    I never said it wasn't a signature expansion feature. When they are present, they are definitely a signature feature. They are important to presenting a new expansion.

    However, that being said they are not necessary in every expansion. I very much believe that they can create new features or spin the revamps in a way that makes things interesting again. While it may not be new, every expansion has opened up new classes. TBC gave Shamans and Paladins to the opposite faction, and I knew many people who changed their mains to the 'new' class. Death Knights came in Wrath. Cataclysm opened up new Race/Class combos, which was touted as a prominent feature.
    And TBC gave us new races, WotLK gave us additional race customization options, Cata gave us new races, and MoP gave us a neutral race. Every expansion has gave us something new on the class side and something new on the race side. My argument is simply that is time on the class side of things, we are probably getting a new class, since the race side of things is covered by race remodels.

    Not true. Cataclysm is a prime example of this. They opened up Race/Class combos while also introducing the Goblins and Worgens. You're pretty much saying that the much better looking Goblins prevented people making Tauren Paladins. We all know this isn't true. People will make Goblins AND Tauren Paladins if they choose to do so. I made a bunch of new alts in Cataclysm with RAF (NE Mage, Dwarf Shaman) as well as Worgen (DK, Hunter).
    That's a different case. Goblins and Worgen were highly desired races. There are no potential upcoming races that were nearly as wanted as those races were. Also the old models were still the old models, and didnt look nearly as good as the Goblin and Worgen models did.

    We're talking about a scenario where we now have an updated Vanilla models and some random race that Blizzard shoehorned into the game. Keep in mind, new players tend to gravitate towards Human and Blood elves, and veteran players have mainly human and Blood Elf characters. So who is this neutral race supposed to appeal to? Why is it there? You know what someone is going ton say in this scenario? "Why didn't Blizzard take the time they took to make this stupid neutral race, and use it to make the remodels better?"

    While I agree it would take away from the hype of a new race, the character revamps are also something that people are looking forward to for their existing characters. It doesn't mean someone who's always hated the look of the Dwarf will now start playing a Dwarf. As awesome as they can look, they're still nothing new and there is no great incentive for rolling new characters. A new race will ultimately be something completely different.
    Well to be fair, I hate trolls, but that new female troll NPC model and Vol'jins new model has me tempted to make a troll. I also never rolled a dwarf and forsaken because their models looked so terrible. If the remodels are nice enough, I may create 2 new characters. I can't imagine I'm alone in feeling that way.

  10. #210
    Fair assessment. Would you say that if they came out with a new race, you would no longer make a Troll? Or that you wouldn't make the new race because the Troll is so awesome?

  11. #211
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Fair assessment. Would you say that if they came out with a new race, you would no longer make a Troll? Or that you wouldn't make the new race because the Troll is so awesome?
    Honestly? I wouldn't give the new race a chance because I'd be too busy with the remodeled vanilla and tbc races. However that's partly because my favorite Warcraft races are all in the game now, and future race concepts seem pretty lackluster to me.

    If a Tinker class were introduced, I'd roll a Goblin. I love those guys, but I feel that there isn't a class that properly represents them. The conceptual races like Ethereals, Naga, and Ogres do nothing for me. IMO they don't measure up to the other playable races.

  12. #212
    i would prefer demon hunter class over a new race. i don't know what new race could be given. demon hunter would be awesome imo. monks this xpansion for me are meh. i don't like the combat the healing or the tanking. pandas are gay as well. demon hunter please.

  13. #213
    The Lightbringer Shadow the Edgehog's Avatar
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    As a long-time Warlock player, I'd rather NOT see Demon Hunters added to WoW. There's just too much overlap (ESPECIALLY between Demonology).

    Warlocks already have most of the Demon Hunter's iconic spells, including Metamorphosis. Other classes have some of their abilities as well, but they share the most with us Warlocks. Adding in Demon Hunters would be difficult because A. How do you bring more than 2 specs out of the class (they don't do ranged, nor do they heal; they're pretty much limited to tanking and melee DPSing), as well as gearing - They only wield glaives, don't wear chest or shoulder armor, and headgear is limited to headbands that cover the eyes. Pretty boring models, not to mention the problems mentioned above (I guess you could make stats on those items greater than other classes, but that brings in the problem of extra items on loot tables, as well as it screwing up monks, druids, and rogues, since DHs wear leather).

    Yeah, Demon Hunters would be a cool, iconic thing to add. There are too many problems, too many overlaps, too many technical limitations that would need to be overcome first. Blizzard would be better off fixing up the older race models and not adding in a new race/class for the next expansion, I think.

    NOTE: Demon Hunters in WoW are MUCH different than those seen in D3. Don't get caught in the whole "duel crossbow wielding badassery," because WoW's Demon Hunters all are carbon-copies of Illidan.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    1. If Blizzard is using its time to redo the 8 vanilla races, and vanilla races require more effort than new races, why would they create 2 new races on top of that? Why wouldn't they put all of their efforts behind remaking the 8 vanilla races?
    Because redoing the 8 vanilla races are at the very bottom of the To-Do list. They are, as Blizzard puts it, being worked on in the artists free time, when they have nothing else to do. That's why they are taking so long. If the new Xpac was slated to bring in 2 new races, then THEY would get priority, not the vanilla races - probably to the point the Xpac woudl launch without them.

    2. If Blizzard is spending a great deal of time creating races, what else could they do as a new feature for the game? In the past, Blizzard has used races or classes as major selling points. With races out of the question due to Blizzard remaking over 8 of them, the only thing left is a new class. Right?
    An argument based upon a false premise. New races aren't out of the question

    3.If 2 new races are introduced, and the Vanilla races are postponed, people will be quite upset, and wonder why Blizzard wasted resources on new races instead of fixing the most popular ones.
    Another argument based upon a fallacy - this time the presumption that players will see new races as a waste. You might. My own feeling is that new races would be welcome.

    Further, if both are introduced at the same time, the new races would be completely overshadowed by the older races for obvious reasons. Finally, the candidates for new races are lackluster compared to previous races that were implemented.
    Ogres, High Elves, Drakonid, Ethereals. Naga.

    Lacklustre? No.

    My personal conclusion is that we're getting a new class because of the old race remodels. I could DEFINITELY be wrong about that
    If we believe Blizzard, you are.

    but I don't see how unless Blizzard is bringing out a whole bunch of races next expansion, which wouldn't make much sense.
    New faction.

    EJL

  15. #215
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Because redoing the 8 vanilla races are at the very bottom of the To-Do list. They are, as Blizzard puts it, being worked on in the artists free time, when they have nothing else to do. That's why they are taking so long. If the new Xpac was slated to bring in 2 new races, then THEY would get priority, not the vanilla races - probably to the point the Xpac woudl launch without them.
    I seriously don't believe that Blizzard is going to bring out another expac without updating the races. At this point, the old races are starting to look jarring next to the graphics of the game. This is why you're seeing so many people begin to request new models. Bringing out yet another new race after pandas would simply make things the old models look even worse.

    Another argument based upon a fallacy - this time the presumption that players will see new races as a waste. You might. My own feeling is that new races would be welcome.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...or-2-new-races

    One of the most one sided polls I've seen on MMOC.

    Ogres, High Elves, Drakonid, Ethereals. Naga.

    Lacklustre? No.
    Compared to the original 8 races, yes.

    If we believe Blizzard, you are.
    We shall see.

    New faction.
    Yeah, that's not happening.

  16. #216
    Mechagnome Kobomino's Avatar
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    Can we give 'new class' and 'new race' a break? I know we had them in previous expansions but it's different now that expansions are getting shorter. In this rate, I hope we'll see new stuff every 2nd expansion.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I seriously don't believe that Blizzard is going to bring out another expac without updating the races.
    Why? Most of the time you don't actually notice the poor quality of the models because they are covered with the high quality armor graphics anyway. And Blizzard can and will add new animations for moves as they have done before. I don't consider it likely myself, but I'm also not writing off the possibility. This is not a core feature Blizzard are developing. This is something they see as desireable, but of low importance. Something that can (and indeed has) waited on other features.


    One of the most one sided polls I've seen on MMOC.
    And also a poll on MMO. None of those are reliable - simply by being on MMO you are taking a biased poll

    Compared to the original 8 races, yes.
    No. In YOUR opinion, yes. Not everyone is going to like every race.

    Yeah, that's not happening.
    No - but it does create a scenario where creating multiple races makes sense.

    EJL

  18. #218
    Before MoP, there was sort of a "pattern". TBC had 2 new races, WotLK had a new class, Cataclysm had 2 new races, but then MoP was released with a new race and a new class, which broke the "pattern". Because of it it's impossible to say what the next expansion will introduce. There could be a new race and a new class, or 2 new races, or just a new class, or updated original races and a new class. But it is likely that whatever comes, it will be revealed in Blizzcon.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Why? Most of the time you don't actually notice the poor quality of the models because they are covered with the high quality armor graphics anyway. And Blizzard can and will add new animations for moves as they have done before. I don't consider it likely myself, but I'm also not writing off the possibility. This is not a core feature Blizzard are developing. This is something they see as desireable, but of low importance. Something that can (and indeed has) waited on other features.




    And also a poll on MMO. None of those are reliable - simply by being on MMO you are taking a biased poll



    No. In YOUR opinion, yes. Not everyone is going to like every race.



    No - but it does create a scenario where creating multiple races makes sense.

    EJL
    Don't try to talk to make this guy see sense, he ignores it. Also, you bring up a point I was not aware of: The remodels were not being done by a dedicated team, but rather when there were no high priority projects? Do you have a link where that is, because I'd love to point that out to him to get him to shut up about how "focused" they are on it. I also agree with you about not using MMO Champion as a proper site for the poll. You have a bias, also it allows people who have never played WoW or aren't currently playing WoW, and that data is flawed.

    Either way, I think the best thing to do, for ALL instances, is to shut up and wait for Blizzard to announce the next expansion, or for a leak similar to the Worgen/Goblin Masks.

  20. #220
    The Lightbringer Shadow the Edgehog's Avatar
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    Part of what is taking the remodels so long is that they don't want people to be mad thjat their character is changed. So they're being really careful with how they're doing them.

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