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  1. #21
    There are opportunities all over the place for them to do this sort of thing, and you already see it being implemented a "little" on some of the Isle of Thunder group quests. All they really need to do is spice up what's currently available... a lot of the named NPC's that you need to kill throughout this game could be far more dangerous, while not needing their health pools boosted at all.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    In my opinion?

    Have various rare elites out there. These elites are tuned for maximizing game play at a low lvl, or at least giving ppl a good struggle. Make, say, 4 in every lvling zone, with each designed for different cases (One for healers, one for tanks, one for dps with heals, one for dps with low heals but high control). Somehow make them to where you will HAVE to down them on your own (For instance, when it spawns, the first person to tag it phases out or something till they die or its defeated). Make these rares give you an advanced rare (something with an ilvl 5 lvls above your current lvl or so) and give 1 lvl worth of xp.

    Thus, long-time players have a method of lvling up quickly, but with a challenge. Newer players can try this out, and possibly realize that they need to increase thier skill lvl if they fail. Higher lvl players shoudlnt be able to touch these rares (Give the rares a buff that causes them to take less damage and deal more relative to the lvl of the person attacking them- I.E a lvl 40 player fighting a lvl 35 rare will actually have a much harder time taking it out then the lvl 35 player, but its still doable. A lvl 90 player would get close to rofl-stomped if they fight it. A lvl 30 would have it harder then a 35 as well, but due to the lvl difference and the hit%ages.)

    Make them out of the way so an explorer will find them, cool stuff like that.
    I like your idea, but the current incarnation of Blizzard will never devote resources to content like that. If the content isn't sparkling, glowing, blaring trumpets and dragged in front of players repeatedly, Blizz isn't interested in putting effort into it. Which is a pity.

  3. #23
    so, you want to lose subs? I remember reading when blizz was going to nerf leveling 1 - 10 leveling was because new players quit before level 10 cause they kept dieing. So, blizz changed that to keep subs.

    So I think the reason Blizz eliminated elite mobs and group quests was to make leveling easy. Most people want to quest to experience the Lore not be "Oh shit...My butt is being kicked...again..and again and again. Then Beg someone to come help them or find people in the zone to kill the "boss".

    As for Not learning how to play because there's no real challenge, those that can't or wont learn simply are weeded out of End game raiding naturally. If you come across a "baddie", Ignore them. An Elite Mob isn't going to teach them anything Unless THEY really want to learn how to play.

    Personally, I like the change. Questing in alterac when those Orges were elites was a pain. Same with doing those quests in Hillbrads with the Elite Dwarves at the edge of arathi. Go kill...retrieve, return. Now go back and kill those respawn again and kill...return and turn in the quest Only to be sent back again.... ugh

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdLady68 View Post
    so, you want to lose subs? I remember reading when blizz was going to nerf leveling 1 - 10 leveling was because new players quit before level 10 cause they kept dieing. So, blizz changed that to keep subs.

    So I think the reason Blizz eliminated elite mobs and group quests was to make leveling easy. Most people want to quest to experience the Lore not be "Oh shit...My butt is being kicked...again..and again and again. Then Beg someone to come help them or find people in the zone to kill the "boss".

    As for Not learning how to play because there's no real challenge, those that can't or wont learn simply are weeded out of End game raiding naturally. If you come across a "baddie", Ignore them. An Elite Mob isn't going to teach them anything Unless THEY really want to learn how to play.

    Personally, I like the change. Questing in alterac when those Orges were elites was a pain. Same with doing those quests in Hillbrads with the Elite Dwarves at the edge of arathi. Go kill...retrieve, return. Now go back and kill those respawn again and kill...return and turn in the quest Only to be sent back again.... ugh
    I bet my life on it that half the people you are speaking for don;t know anything about the lore at all. Elite mobs and elite quests in the game were easily skippable. Thats what really boggled my mind. You didn't have to do them to graduate to the next zone. They were just there. My and a friend would always make sure to get them in specific zones.

    You nailed the problem with current questing for what it is: A huge grind. Thats all it is now. You know WHY its a grind? Because no one cares about it. They don't care because they can breeze past it. Dungeons, quests, doesn't matter. Its easy. I recently leveled a priest through dungeons as disc, and had THREE BUTTONS ON MY BARS. THREE. Smite, PWS, and Flash Heal.

    When things were harder to level, I didn't notice the grindy aspect of the game. Now, since I can 1-2 shot anything.. its just grind grind grind.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  5. #25
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Threads like this leave the impression nobody ever plays anymore from Classic and TBC (aka, apparently the time when the game taught you how to play your class) and now there are 9 million people who started to play yesterday, facerolled to 90 and are now clueless.

    OP: Does your guild have trouble recuiting great players for raiding Hardmodes or why are you all so concerned about what others do, how they play and how they get their fun out of the game? I mean, c'mon...everyone who didn't start in TBC is shit because the game poses no level challenge? We had underperforming and very bad players in our guilds and raids even back then. It is about the individual player wanting to improve. And since forever, people who wanted to improve were either numbercrunching theorycrafters willing to help the community or players that read up on their class and strategy.

    The wish to get better needs to come from within YOU.

    Why punish and drill 10 million players when the absolutely biggest chunk of them ends up doing pvp, pet battles, dailies and LFR and 500 000 decide to go into normal raiding of which sth like 75 000 end up in Hardmodes. And the numbers have never been much different...even back in Classic and TBC.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Threads like this leave the impression nobody ever plays anymore from Classic and TBC (aka, apparently the time when the game taught you how to play your class) and now there are 9 million people who started to play yesterday, facerolled to 90 and are now clueless.

    OP: Does your guild have trouble recuiting great players for raiding Hardmodes or why are you all so concerned about what others do, how they play and how they get their fun out of the game? I mean, c'mon...everyone who didn't start in TBC is shit because the game poses no level challenge? We had underperforming and very bad players in our guilds and raids even back then. It is about the individual player wanting to improve. And since forever, people who wanted to improve were either numbercrunching theorycrafters willing to help the community or players that read up on their class and strategy.

    The wish to get better needs to come from within YOU.

    Why punish and drill 10 million players when the absolutely biggest chunk of them ends up doing pvp, pet battles, dailies and LFR and 500 000 decide to go into normal raiding of which sth like 75 000 end up in Hardmodes. And the numbers have never been much different...even back in Classic and TBC.
    In no way would putting elite quests or mobs back into the game "punish" people that like doing pet battles.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    I agree that TBC screwed things up by removing many elites from questing zones. I thought the elites really fostered group play.
    there were many many group quest in TBC from hellfire peninsula and onward, and i believed vanilla wow was untouched either, even naxx 40 was still available.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 11:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdLady68 View Post
    so, you want to lose subs? I remember reading when blizz was going to nerf leveling 1 - 10 leveling was because new players quit before level 10 cause they kept dieing. So, blizz changed that to keep subs.

    So I think the reason Blizz eliminated elite mobs and group quests was to make leveling easy. Most people want to quest to experience the Lore not be "Oh shit...My butt is being kicked...again..and again and again. Then Beg someone to come help them or find people in the zone to kill the "boss".

    As for Not learning how to play because there's no real challenge, those that can't or wont learn simply are weeded out of End game raiding naturally. If you come across a "baddie", Ignore them. An Elite Mob isn't going to teach them anything Unless THEY really want to learn how to play.

    Personally, I like the change. Questing in alterac when those Orges were elites was a pain. Same with doing those quests in Hillbrads with the Elite Dwarves at the edge of arathi. Go kill...retrieve, return. Now go back and kill those respawn again and kill...return and turn in the quest Only to be sent back again.... ugh
    This response (and many others) made me reflect on how do work game design.

    When develloper (at least the lead designer and develloper) design a game, i suppose they would want to design a game they would like to play, but also a game that will be popular. They have a vision, they have their own design in mind. But often, they have to compromise because of the vision of other or because they know some decision, though like it, might be unpopular.

    Some studios decide to really go with their gut and feeling in game design, while other aim at a large public thus must include popular design.

    Designing a challenging, punishing game is not popular. But some developper do it. XCOM ironman impossible will NOT cater to you, it will slap you in the face so hard your ancestor will feel it. The game does have easier settings, but the hardest one are very very punishing.

    Somehow wow decided to remove any hard or punishing design in the leveling process. That's too bad, those elite mob were never mandatory, even an entire region of questing isn't mandatory, they could have kept area for group quest and elite mob, they didn't. In a game as large as wow, i don't know why. I guess they have a different public in mind that did have in 2004.

    They are not trying to design a game from they heart anymore, but for gaining and retaining as much sub as they could. As one guy said, they even nerfed the 1-10 leveling in order to make more sub.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    I agree that TBC screwed things up by removing many elites from questing zones. I thought the elites really fostered group play.
    Fel Reaver's in hellfire say hi.

    Also iirc there were elite giants walking around in Wrath at Howling Fjord.

  9. #29
    If you think getting your face mashed by elites while solo questing is how you learn to play WoW, then, I wonder, what exactly do you think is WoW?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 02:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    Fel Reaver's in hellfire say hi.

    Also iirc there were elite giants walking around in Wrath at Howling Fjord.
    Fel Reavers are just PvE gankbots. They serve no gameplay purpose other than to, I dunno, kill bots and AFKers? You can round up a group to kill one but they drop like 10 silver so ... why?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 02:41 AM ----------

    Meanwhile, questing at level 90 is essentially a solo activity, so what would group quests before level 90 teach you to do?

  10. #30
    Pandaren Monk vep's Avatar
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    How about................................................. Class quests!

    I know we have some class quests today but they are rather boring and silly. Why not add class quests with class and spec specific challenges? Maybe, as a reward, give out a scaling piece of gear, similar to heirlooms but weaker (That way new players get decent gear to play with while keeping the incenitive to get heirlooms for players who roll alts).

  11. #31
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    I agree, many aspects are better with the new leveling design but things like the elite hard quests are definitely missing. I remember trying to beat them on your own and it required you to either think about what abilities to use and survive, or get a group because it's too hard. Leveling being faceroll easy is something I don't like, as you said, it helps the player explore their abilities more and actually have to think what they did wrong because they died, not use 1 shot the mobs with ease.

  12. #32
    I am Murloc! Baracuda's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure no elites were removed in TBC... At least Hogger is still elite.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbarh View Post
    may i suggest you check out wowwiki or any similar site, it's Grom that orders the murder of Cairne

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    Fel Reavers are just PvE gankbots. They serve no gameplay purpose other than to, I dunno, kill bots and AFKers? You can round up a group to kill one but they drop like 10 silver so ... why?
    Actually Fel reavers needed to be slain as part of a 5 man instance key quest in TBC.

    The reality of all elite group quests is you spend all day in /1 spamming to do it. (Ring of blood, Crucible of Carnage, etc) They end up being a huge waste of time searching for help.

    Also I'd agree that all roaming elites ended up as pve gankers that are just annoying.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    Actually Fel reavers needed to be slain as part of a 5 man instance key quest in TBC.

    The reality of all elite group quests is you spend all day in /1 spamming to do it. (Ring of blood, Crucible of Carnage, etc) They end up being a huge waste of time searching for help.

    Also I'd agree that all roaming elites ended up as pve gankers that are just annoying.
    Yes the same problem exists now with the ... almost ... brand new summoning quests on Isle of Thunder. Most specs can't solo what gets summoned, but if you don't have a guild healer to go with you you can spam /1 for a week and never get a nibble. Back when IoT was new on my (med/low pop) server it could be 30 minutes or 3 hours before someone found a healer for a 5-man quest boss.

    People are only interested in group quest content when it is relevant, and it stays relevant for a very short period of time. After that, it's just you and whoever you know who happens to be on at the same time and wants to waste some of that time with you.

    Making the MoP "Crucible of Carnage" into a scenario was brilliant, frankly.

  15. #35
    I remember when I started, I was Alliance. I heard "The Horde is attacking" and I looked across the river from Elwynn forest and saw level XX spiders and thought that was the Horde since I really didn't know anything. An hour later, I ran into Hogger. We had a group of 4 and we kept dying (I think we were all ripe n00bs to WoW). It was one of those chest pounding experiences to see "/1 Can someone help with Hogger?" and to triumphantly proclaim that I had helped defeat him once and I'd happily do it again... only to wipe another time or two.

    Now... leveling my monk at level 61 I could take on the Hellreaver.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    The wish to get better needs to come from within YOU.
    I think there is nothing wrong with encouraging it. This doesn't even have to mean punishing those who aren't interested.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    Yes the same problem exists now with the ... almost ... brand new summoning quests on Isle of Thunder. Most specs can't solo what gets summoned, but if you don't have a guild healer to go with you you can spam /1 for a week and never get a nibble. Back when IoT was new on my (med/low pop) server it could be 30 minutes or 3 hours before someone found a healer for a 5-man quest boss.

    People are only interested in group quest content when it is relevant, and it stays relevant for a very short period of time. After that, it's just you and whoever you know who happens to be on at the same time and wants to waste some of that time with you.

    Making the MoP "Crucible of Carnage" into a scenario was brilliant, frankly.
    I want to clarify that I am not suggesting they bring group quests back I understand the problem with that, Bring back elite quests but make them solo-able. To elaborate Include some challenging aspects(perhaps the quest could read like the Dungeon Journal?) that they have to overcome like include some boss mechanics from the end game that actually need to be avoided. Have these types of things warn the player to watch out for fire/aoe and maximize their utility in the form of silences and interrupts slows and roots etc.

    Some of the replies in this thread makes me feel like I am asking blizzard to spawn Fel Reavers in every zone to terrorize the innocent so that beginners cry themselves to sleep.

    I want Blizzard to do more to attempt bridging the skill gap at max level where for example a Hunter for 90 levels barely maximized his abilities because he was never encouraged to, never avoided boss mechanics in dungeons because for the most part you really don't have to then all of a sudden at 90 starts doing heroics and everyone flames him into submission. A lot of new players come to WoW and are pretty new to the genre or only play very casually and don't find a necessity to maximize their character but then they become apart of the end game community and they are frowned upon heavily by the more vocal and disturbed part of the player base. I doubt very much that a single player with any endgame experience hasn't witnessed a noob get scorned and ridiculed by someone else sometimes to the level of harassment.

    I am simply suggesting that Blizzard adds some incentive earlier in the game to maximize your characters abilities to help reduce this unfortunate occurrence many new players experience.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Baracuda View Post
    I'm pretty sure no elites were removed in TBC... At least Hogger is still elite.
    May I introduce you to patch 2.3.

    Many elite creatures and quests in the level 1-60 experience have been changed to accommodate solo play.
    Yes, I want elite creatures back. Make them optional and we have win-win situation. Those who can't be bothered to do them or there is none available (with CRZ highly unlikely) can skip them and those who enjoy little team play at low levels will have their fun.

  19. #39
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    Actually Fel reavers needed to be slain as part of a 5 man instance key quest in TBC.

    The reality of all elite group quests is you spend all day in /1 spamming to do it. (Ring of blood, Crucible of Carnage, etc) They end up being a huge waste of time searching for help.

    Also I'd agree that all roaming elites ended up as pve gankers that are just annoying.
    Well, I'd say Felreavers were in a good place. They kept you on your toes and when needed for the quest eventually, you could cont on getting a group in guild for them.

    I'd say they wouldn't have been in a good place if they were part of a questchain in HFP that gated into further quests and was mandatory.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  20. #40
    I just thought, why not use Phasing Tech. If you decide to do the elite quests in a zone the Elite is phased into your game this way low levels that aren't interested have absolutely nothing to worry about.

    I think this would be the perfect win-win scenario.

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