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  1. #1

    Literally, You are not prepared!

    I know looking back with nostalgia always jades perspective but I absolutely love leveling characters, it has been a past time of mine to prepare myself for elite encounters and overcoming them. Why the hell did blizzard get rid of elite encounters/group quests at the lower levels, this game does an excellent job now of making you think that you are doing a good job while doing a terrible job. How are new players supposed to realize that after 60+ levels of lackluster performance and succeeding that all of a sudden they are doing a piss poor job? Elites/Boss Mobs gave players a reason to maximize their skill base(at least it did with me when others weren't available). Now their is absolutely no challenge to the early levels because blizzard decided that beginners did not need to learn this. Come on if you have used LFR it is blatantly obvious to differentiate between characters who have a clue, players that have half a clue and players that have absolutely no clue. Why did 100% of low level content need to be accessible to those not capable of overcoming challenges. You don't need to make elite quests insurmountable but at least make them require a majority of your skills to succeed. So many new characters have no clue why they are bad because they haven't been presented with any challenges.

    Low level elites need to be re-implemented to bring back the challenge to the game and reward rare quality gear to bring incentive to the challenge.

    TL;DR : Bring back the early game challenge, aka Make people Think proactively early game and they will be more prepared for endgame

    Edit: I want to clarify that while in my post I most certainly come across aggressively. I am not saying that my overall opinion of the player base is everyone is bad or that we need to punish lowbies. I am simply stating that I think it would be a good idea if Blizzard introduced more low level challenges for the player base in order to learn to maximize their skills and awareness from the get go.

    As it currently Stands the leveling process is so mind numbingly easy with very minimal consequence that when you reach max level You do not feel adequately prepared to endeavor into the end game content like Heroic or LFR where you will probably get flamed due to your inexperience.

    My suggestion is: Optional Solo-Able Elite Quests in each zone Via Phasing Technology Rewarding Rare(blue) gear to give incentive to do it.

    Make the bosses require elementary skills such as:
    -Don't stand in the fire
    -Dodge barrage of missiles
    -Run away hes going to AOE
    -Stun him(Using an item) he's going for reinforcements.
    -Run away hes raging
    -Cross the beams/Don't Cross the beams
    -Etc.

    This would help lower level players be better equipped and gain some exposure to common end game mechanics.

    As it currently stands you can run just about any sub60 dungeon and stand in the fire and soak up as much AOE and boss damage as you want and with a moderate healer you would never even know you were being damaged. This is poor game mechanics and players should have some reason to critically think before the game rolls out the red carpet and drives out with the pain train to mow your ass down with a heavy dose of end game reality.
    Last edited by Geminiel; 2013-04-26 at 04:45 PM.

  2. #2
    Field Marshal Yutani's Avatar
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    The only thing you learn from being beaten to a pulp by some vanilla style elite is that elites apparently aren't to be fucked with. It doesn't contribute to the fun nor does it contribute to one learning his class. There are some classes that through skillful use of their abilities were able to beat some encounters others couldn't thus contributing to the aforementioned "skill base maximization". Low level quests, however, need to be solvable by all classes.

    That being sad I do agree with the base sentiment of your post that people can faceroll through the entire game until all of a sudden they are (after todays q&a the following phrase will probably become a little bit overused) not prepared.
    I don't think bringing back the old 'bring a tank and a healer or the right class, good luck, potions and timing'-elites is the right way to do that though. At all.

    Now, THAT being sad I am not sure whether or not it is actually a good idea to sort of 'force' everyone to thorougly learn their class at all. I believe that the fact that you don't play with and against 10 million koreans with 900apm and an encyclopedical knowledge of the game and everything in and about it (no offense intended) is a major part of the fun even and especially for high end players because after all, if everyone were high end it would become the average.

    So I think once again Blizzard did the right thing and they shouldn't revert those decisions.
    Last edited by Yutani; 2013-04-26 at 02:36 AM.

  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral dacoolist's Avatar
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    But but but HOOOGGGEERRRR. No JK

    -> I think that they could tune the game a bit to be rougher on the noobs. But I think it would suck for the new people to try out wow constantly died getting in WAILING Caverns like I did back in 2007... just doesn't work like that anymore.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    In my opinion?

    Have various rare elites out there. These elites are tuned for maximizing game play at a low lvl, or at least giving ppl a good struggle. Make, say, 4 in every lvling zone, with each designed for different cases (One for healers, one for tanks, one for dps with heals, one for dps with low heals but high control). Somehow make them to where you will HAVE to down them on your own (For instance, when it spawns, the first person to tag it phases out or something till they die or its defeated). Make these rares give you an advanced rare (something with an ilvl 5 lvls above your current lvl or so) and give 1 lvl worth of xp.

    Thus, long-time players have a method of lvling up quickly, but with a challenge. Newer players can try this out, and possibly realize that they need to increase thier skill lvl if they fail. Higher lvl players shoudlnt be able to touch these rares (Give the rares a buff that causes them to take less damage and deal more relative to the lvl of the person attacking them- I.E a lvl 40 player fighting a lvl 35 rare will actually have a much harder time taking it out then the lvl 35 player, but its still doable. A lvl 90 player would get close to rofl-stomped if they fight it. A lvl 30 would have it harder then a 35 as well, but due to the lvl difference and the hit%ages.)

    Make them out of the way so an explorer will find them, cool stuff like that.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Yutani View Post
    The only thing you learn from being beaten to a pulp by some vanilla style elite is that elites apparently aren't to be fucked with. It doesn't contribute to the fun nor does it contribute to one learning his class. There are some classes that through skillful use of their abilities were able to beat some encounters others couldn't thus contributing to the aforementioned "skill base maximization". Low level quests, however, need to be solvable by all classes.

    That being sad I do agree with the base sentiment of your post that people can faceroll through the entire game until all of a sudden they are (after todays q&a the following phrase will probably become a little bit overused) not prepared.
    I don't think bringing back the old 'bring a tank and a healer or the right class, good luck, potions and timing'-elites is the right way to do that though. At all.

    Now, THAT being sad I am not sure whether or not it is actually a good idea to sort of 'force' everyone to thorougly learn their class at all. I believe that the fact that you don't play with and against 10 million koreans with 900apm and an encyclopedical knowledge of the game and everything in and about it (no offense intended) is a major part of the fun even and especially for high end players because after all, if everyone were high end it would become the average.

    So I think once again Blizzard did the right thing and they shouldn't revert those decisions.
    I"m not saying force a noob to play through elite content to advance, I guess to elaborate I'm saying a quest chain should end in an elite quest to challenge the player progressively. This whole faceroll concept is pretty sad. Give players an elite at the end of a quest chain to overcome if they want some blue gear.

    If said player can't overcome said challenge allow them to move onto the next quest chain without a damper. This game at the early levels puts absolutely no pressure on the low level player to understand and adapt to new skills even in dungeons, I, as a healer, dps 75% of dungeons because healing is barely required unless the tank is pulling obscene amounts.

    This game doesn't introduce consequence until you are at the point that players will flame you to the point of ashes. At least a gradual increase in difficulty to bridge players into endgame should be applied not this easy game 80% into get fucked by mechanics 20%. This game does absolutely nothing to bridge noobs into endgame, it only gives a false sense of progression to later find out in actuality you suck.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 02:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    In my opinion?

    Have various rare elites out there. These elites are tuned for maximizing game play at a low lvl, or at least giving ppl a good struggle. Make, say, 4 in every lvling zone, with each designed for different cases (One for healers, one for tanks, one for dps with heals, one for dps with low heals but high control). Somehow make them to where you will HAVE to down them on your own (For instance, when it spawns, the first person to tag it phases out or something till they die or its defeated). Make these rares give you an advanced rare (something with an ilvl 5 lvls above your current lvl or so) and give 1 lvl worth of xp.

    Thus, long-time players have a method of lvling up quickly, but with a challenge. Newer players can try this out, and possibly realize that they need to increase thier skill lvl if they fail. Higher lvl players shoudlnt be able to touch these rares (Give the rares a buff that causes them to take less damage and deal more relative to the lvl of the person attacking them- I.E a lvl 40 player fighting a lvl 35 rare will actually have a much harder time taking it out then the lvl 35 player, but its still doable. A lvl 90 player would get close to rofl-stomped if they fight it. A lvl 30 would have it harder then a 35 as well, but due to the lvl difference and the hit%ages.)

    Make them out of the way so an explorer will find them, cool stuff like that.
    O completely agree, you understood the overall stance of my post. This is exactly what I was trying to portray, not an elitist attitude but a progressive attitude. I agree with rares giving more to the player though they already give more exp, perhaps they should give rare random gear to the player or perhaps based on spec but be more challenging to deserve a better gear reward like a random blue.
    Last edited by Geminiel; 2013-04-26 at 02:51 AM.

  6. #6
    I agree that TBC screwed things up by removing many elites from questing zones. I thought the elites really fostered group play.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    I agree that TBC screwed things up by removing many elites from questing zones. I thought the elites really fostered group play.
    Starting a new account it was just so bleh. Nothing felt challenging in the first 60+ levels it was embarrassing. It didn't matter if I quested or did dungeons, they were all a complete joke. I don't understand why blizzard made early progression so easy mode, I understand LFR in order to allow the casual player base to see content, but so much of that player base is /retard because they have barely any incentive to maximize their performance early on. Half the fun of this game in its earlier leveling days was overcoming adversity with your skill set(which I understand not every class was capable of). Now though, this game barely teaches you the basics. You repeat the same awful minimizing rotation for a large amount of levels and are somehow expected to pull off good dps in heroics? The game never taught you how to do shit and now people are flaming you and you don't know why because all you did was continue your same practices.

  8. #8
    I agree and wish Blizzard would put some effort into the leveling zones. Not like the "new quest structure" from Cata. But make it so that leveling means something more than "I need to solo face roll from 1-max.....zzzz". There are so many awesome ways to do it. Would be nice if it got looked at.

  9. #9
    Scarab Lord Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    I agree that TBC screwed things up by removing many elites from questing zones. I thought the elites really fostered group play.
    I believe that happened in Cata, not BC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Yutani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminiel View Post
    This game doesn't introduce consequence until you are at the point that players will flame you to the point of ashes. At least a gradual increase in difficulty to bridge players into endgame should be applied not this easy game 80% into get fucked by mechanics 20%. This game does absolutely nothing to bridge noobs into endgame, it only gives a false sense of progression to later find out in actuality you suck.[COLOR="red"]
    I acknowledge that problem and I think it should be tackled but I think that this is one of the most difficult things to solve because
    a) there are so many different types of people playing wow for different reasons and with different ambitions
    b) and combining all of those so everyone has an enjoyable experience is also a task of the community.

    I think this mainly concerns DPS players in PvE. As a tank or a healer you'll have to learn certain aspects of the game or you can't proceed. So some are naturally going to choose dps because they don't want to do that and I guess they shouldn't if they don't want to. It's a difficult problem.

    Maybe they could introduce some sort of DPS checks for certain high level dungeons and lfr. Say you want to queue for some dungeon so before you get into the queue the first time you get teleported to some target dummy area where you'll have to pass some preset dps mark on single and/or multitargets. It shouldn't be overly hard to beat if you use some sort of adequate rotation (gear could be normalized if neccessary) but it shouldn't be possible to pass the check if your rotation is completely off or you're not using a rotation at all.

    Come to think of it they might implement those checks into a scenario that you have to do once before you can queue for any high level stuff using the LF-system. Some sort of raiding or high level dungeon tutorial that helps players better understand what is expected of their role and what other roles are doing. Then you'd have to pass a dps check (for dps) on some mockup fights and that's it.
    Anyway I think the main problem with that I believe is that it might force players to do something they may not want to do.

  11. #11
    Cata redeveloped the intro levels which IMO was necessary, but they butchered it completely. I Loved soloing what Blizzard considered 3man content. Ya maybe you died a couple of times but you wanted the reward and if no one else was available you gave it a go based on your abilities. I Think blizzard should focus on more 1 player content that really challenges you to use you abilities even if it is as simple as a Dance Dance Revolution style of gameplay where you are simple pressing your abilities to press them. Shit do you know how many people I have had to explain their abilities to because they were never prompted or required to use said abilities ingame? It really is embarrassing, and I know better than to blame the player because I have leveled enough characters to know that this game doesn't really teach you shit all.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 03:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yutani View Post
    I acknowledge that problem and I think it should be tackled but I think that this is one of the most difficult things to solve because
    a) there are so many different types of people playing wow for different reasons and with different ambitions
    b) and combining all of those so everyone has an enjoyable experience is also a task of the community.

    I think this mainly concerns DPS players in PvE. As a tank or a healer you'll have to learn certain aspects of the game or you can't proceed. So some are naturally going to choose dps because they don't want to do that and I guess they shouldn't if they don't want to. It's a difficult problem.

    Maybe they could introduce some sort of DPS checks for certain high level dungeons and lfr. Say you want to queue for some dungeon so before you get into the queue the first time you get teleported to some target dummy area where you'll have to pass some preset dps mark on single and/or multitargets. It shouldn't be overly hard to beat if you use some sort of adequate rotation (gear could be normalized if neccessary) but it shouldn't be possible to pass the check if your rotation is completely off or you're not using a rotation at all.

    Come to think of it they might implement those checks into a scenario that you have to do once before you can queue for any high level stuff using the LF-system. Some sort of raiding or high level dungeon tutorial that helps players better understand what is expected of their role and what other roles are doing. Then you'd have to pass a dps check (for dps) on some mockup fights and that's it.
    Anyway I think the main problem with that I believe is that it might force players to do something they may not want to do.
    I think the emphasis needs to remain that IT IS NOT NECESSARY to complete said elite quest to progress, this would allow players who are not capable of the challenge to continue playing the game while players who want some blue gear to undertake some challenging early level content to gain an advantage. I in no way want to destroy the experience for people less skilled who simple want to enjoy the game, but making some challenge bosses in each zone shouldn't be an issue and I think would overall benefit the game

    P.S. Please don't think the caps lock was trying to yell at you, I was simply trying to establish my point.

  12. #12
    Field Marshal Yutani's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminiel View Post

    I think the emphasis needs to remain that IT IS NOT NECESSARY to complete said elite quest to progress, this would allow players who are not capable of the challenge to continue playing the game while players who want some blue gear to undertake some challenging early level content to gain an advantage. I in no way want to destroy the experience for people less skilled who simple want to enjoy the game, but making some challenge bosses in each zone shouldn't be an issue and I think would overall benefit the game

    P.S. Please don't think the caps lock was trying to yell at you, I was simply trying to establish my point.
    I like that idea. Still then the 'noobs' would feel excluded but how about this:
    You just dinged 20 and are questing in Ashenvale. A quest pops up telling you that 'Dolan', an elite creature, is running rampant in the northwest of Ashenv.
    So you go there and there are some NPCs telling you all about Dolan and how it came to be that hes running rampant now. But to fight Dolan you must prepare yourself (told you its going to be overused^^) first and fight gooby. Fighting Gooby is already tough but most should be able to do it. This already rewards something (important otherwise it wont get implemented) and the player must know that if he/she beats the next stage they can upgrade that item (or whatever it is they are getting). So then stage 2 hits with another mob or lots of mobs or whatever. This should be a lot harder and def. require you to push your buttons in the right order.
    After that comes Dolan and hes very hard to beat and requires cooldowns and the right buttons once he is defeated you can upgrade your reward once more and get an achievment ofc.

    The mob abilities/events could even be tailored to the class and specifically remind you for example to use certain skills. So you could do the event as a mage but not by just spamming ice lance or chaincasting frostbolt but you could also do it as a healer by keeping up some npcs with all the spells at your disposal.
    There should be no penalty for failing and restarting the fight/event at a later point and the difficulty between each stage should increase gradually so that it initally remains accessible to all (It's like blizzard said; if its there people will want to do it and if they cant they get frustrated) while ultimately posing a very real challenge to everyone.
    Now let's say you can't beat stage 2 so you do something else first but when you come back it won't be any easier (item and level normalization) you just have to get better. (this is why the reward shouldn't just be an item that you'd discard at best a few levels later)Hopefully by increasing the difficulty just a little bit every time it should be doable for the majority while actually turning them into better players without them having the feeling that they either were forced to do something they didnt want to do or by making them feel excluded by providing a challenge they can not solve without assistance.

    and finally: It shouldn't just be elite mob events. Making a movement challenge event that in it's last stage requires your full attention should also be fun.
    Last edited by Yutani; 2013-04-26 at 04:06 AM.

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    I don't see the problem with adding difficult elites onto the ends of quests to begin with. You aren't forced to do them. i doubt most people complete all the quests in zones, or even close to all of them anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  14. #14
    The rares in MoP were designed well. The leveling areas could benefit from similar mobs that are soloable by every class yet have abilities that can destroy you if ignored.

    These could probably provide rewards such as blue quality gear and experience boosts for characters within a certain level. They shouldn't drop anything that a level 90 players would want in order to prevent them from being camped too much.

  15. #15
    Legendary! Destil's Avatar
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    This topic is new and alluring.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    The rares in MoP were designed well. The leveling areas could benefit from similar mobs that are soloable by every class yet have abilities that can destroy you if ignored.
    yep and thats what i like about them. and they could make low lvl bosses abit harder.

  17. #17
    Scarab Lord Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    The rares in MoP were designed well. The leveling areas could benefit from similar mobs that are soloable by every class yet have abilities that can destroy you if ignored.

    These could probably provide rewards such as blue quality gear and experience boosts for characters within a certain level. They shouldn't drop anything that a level 90 players would want in order to prevent them from being camped too much.
    So, not tied in to quests at all?
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

  18. #18
    Immortal Haven's Avatar
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    Agreed. No challenge and no reward for challenge, however the whole 1-89 leveling is just a bother which everyone wants to sprint through as fast as possible. THere's no enjoying this game until "the real game" - endgame - begins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    So, not tied in to quests at all?
    As much as I might personally enough that, I don't see it happening in this time and and age. I also don't think that it's necessary as long as killing them is encouraged. For the players who know about them there should be enough incentives without having to tie them to the quests, and for the players who don't know about them they should be placed not only in hidden places as a bonus but also in plain sight to awaken the interest in killing them.

  20. #20
    Scarab Lord Lemonpartyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    As much as I might personally enough that, I don't see it happening in this time and and age. I also don't think that it's necessary as long as killing them is encouraged. For the players who know about them there should be enough incentives without having to tie them to the quests, and for the players who don't know about them they should be placed not only in hidden places as a bonus but also in plain sight to awaken the interest in killing them.
    Smart man. I would enjoy something like that as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
    Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...
    New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
    Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
    Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool
    yea its probably nostalgia

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