1. #1
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Would PvP be improved without healers and tanks?

    Blizzard seem to be debating the idea of declaring one spec per class as the "PvP spec", and I do think that's what they should be doing - instead of 34 classes, you're only balancing 11 (or 12, if they add a new class with the next expansion.)

    So what if they decided to tune it so that healing and tank specs aren't good at PvP?

    Consider: Every spec of every class has at least some self-healing capability, and as far as I'm aware, every spec of every class has at least some disables or other utility spells (like roots, disarms, silences, etc) available to them. So why do we even need dedicated healers and tanks?

    Currently, healers are designed so that they more or less can't be killed by a DPS spec (or tank spec) in a solo fight, and I'm sure plenty of people have seen healers running around in circles tanking multiple players for a considerable amount of time before finally dying (or being rescued.) This is because of the balance emphasis on 3v3 arenas - if healers could be soloed by DPS specs, why would you bring a healer at all? And the reverse is generally true - because of a healer's generally poor DPS and the self-healing abilities of DPS specs, healers typically can't kill a DPS either.

    This also typically applies to tanks - they can't be killed, but they can't really kill, either. Their job is to sit their ass on a flag, or carry a flag around, and if a single DPS could easily bring them down, there'd be no reason to bring them... and if tanks could easily kill DPS or healers, there'd be no reason not to stack tanks.

    In my opinion, this results in somewhat boring gameplay, for everyone involved. When I play a tank, the only thing I can really do (especially now that tanking is done by mashing Shield Barrier and not, say, rotating Shockwave with Concussion Blow and then LOSing while those stuns are on DR timers) is grab the flag and run around - I can't kill people, and changes made in MoP also largely robbed me of the ability to effectively protect teammates (this is now pretty much exclusively the healer's role.)

    This also applies for a healer, and even for a DPS. As long as tanks are around, you'll never really exclusively delegate defensive roles to a DPS, and you'd certainly never ask a priest to start turreting Smite instead of Flash Heal.

    So why not just get rid of tanks and healers, and design PvP to be done with just DPS specs? Since this is the kind of change that would only take place during a new expansion, I don't think PvP would turn into a button-mashing burst orgy, either - you'd have plenty of time to develop it and pace it properly.
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  2. #2
    Banned Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    If they removed healers that would require them to overhaul the entire system. Everything would have to be changed. I guess you would be looking for something similar to guild wars then. I've never played that game so I couldn't say if it would a good change or bad one.

    As for tanks I think they've recently more or less stated that they're trying to remove them from pvp. The debuff from being a tank specced flag carrier reflects that.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Tanks haven't been good in PvP since you couldn't get vengeance from players.

    More self healing, stronger healer offenses (thinking about all healers being akin to retribution paladins) and weaker *just constant healing nonsense that healers do now* would be neat.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I guess you would be looking for something similar to guild wars then. I've never played that game so I couldn't say if it would a good change or bad one.
    This. GW 2 is tailored around hybrid system where everyone have healing capabilities, dmg is less bursty and pvp is objective based, not last man standing mode that WoW arena is. In GW 2 lots of dmg can be avoided with buffs/debuffs/combo fields/positions/build in CC breakers, all classes are sturdy and can get even more sturdy if they want. Game is simply build around pvp and it's very good at that.

    But try to incorporate GW2 system in WoW and you'll destroy all what's left of pvp becouse there's a lot of spammable CC/thought the roof dmg/ low cds on most offensive moves. All that simply demands a healer, otherwise top burst classes like hunt/mage/rogue will reign even more supreme (my ench shaman got killed by rogue through 67% resiliance in duration of cheap-kidney-paralitic proc, no chance whatsoever). Different games are different.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 06:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    Tanks haven't been good in PvP since you couldn't get vengeance from players.
    Not good as can't do retarded dmg, but their survivability is still insane in pvp.

  5. #5
    no. i could do without tanks, but healers are necessary to add depth to what would otherwise be a zerg/burst fest.

    tanks are only annoying in 1v1, 2's and flag spinning in rbgs. i don't even mind them as FCs cause there is always the stacking debuff.

  6. #6
    I still believe, tanks has no place in PvP, unkillable players till 4/5 stack of debuffs from flag, in every other bg, they are unkillable with healer.

    As for healers, we need them, so im fine with it.
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  7. #7
    Bloodsail Admiral Cjeska's Avatar
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    Removing healers from pvp would remove me from wow.

  8. #8
    Well i didnt read those original sources where blizzard is playing with the idea.
    But what i get from reading the OP is that they "plan" to have one spec per class as the PVP spec. Nowhere this means we aint got healers or tanks. Maybe discipline will be the PVP spec of priests. This way we would still have healers. I cant read anything about that the pvp spec will always be the DD spec.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord joepesci's Avatar
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    Personal opinion, but I would like to see both go away, not only from PvP but from the whole game.
    Tanks aren't such a big issue in PvP, but healers are an incredibly big problem for PvP balance. It would be much easier to balance without their existence.

    In PvE, tanks force the developers to not give any sort of artificial intelligence to mobs, as they of course would NOT attack the tanks then. Every modern game works on AI and is proud to achieve something in that domain, only MMOs completely block AI, as the tank (aggro) concept just cannot work with it. The tank concept relies on indefinite mob stupidity. How can this be considered a good thing?

    If you could play a raid boss once, what would you do? I know one thing I wouldn't do.
    Last edited by joepesci; 2013-04-26 at 10:05 AM.

  10. #10
    inb4 Retri Pala Spriest Ench shaman = tier 1 godcomp

  11. #11
    Bad idea. I would remove self healing abilities instead and give healers a bit more dmg (MW-Monks and Discs are fine). It sucks that I can´t kill a hunter as a resto druid.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Peng View Post
    Bad idea. I would remove self healing abilities instead and give healers a bit more dmg (MW-Monks and Discs are fine). It sucks that I can´t kill a hunter as a resto druid.
    Why cant you do that? As a resto you have acess to damage spells as well, including your dot. As the hunter has very limited selfheal abilities compared to a resto druid, all you need to be able to is to survive his burst. If you can outheal his damage you can win.

    Giving your damage spells more damage wont change this scenario a bit. You still cant win if you cant outheal the hunters damage unless you talk of something like bursting the hunter down before he bursted you down, which would be a bit over the top for a healer, wont it?

  13. #13
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    Undoubtedly, however you dont need to completely remove them, just gimp them alot so that arenas dont last an hour. Healers should have to worry about mana and who they have to heal / whos expendable. Instead of just spamming hots on everything that moves.

  14. #14
    Lower burst and overall damage and maybe this could work. Them 5k rejuv on a 400k health player ain't nothing against 230k Chaos Bolts. Rogues stunning the shit out of you until you die (depends on resilience, of course.)

    It also could only work if gear was not an as much factor as it is now. Roughly ~2.3k pvp power on S13 Malevolent Gladiator's Spellblade and then you get S13 Tyrannical Gladiator's Spellblade with ~6k more PvP power it's a bit over tuned.. for a world where healing in PvP has no place.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ripponesan View Post
    Why cant you do that? As a resto you have acess to damage spells as well, including your dot. As the hunter has very limited selfheal abilities compared to a resto druid, all you need to be able to is to survive his burst. If you can outheal his damage you can win.

    Giving your damage spells more damage wont change this scenario a bit. You still cant win if you cant outheal the hunters damage unless you talk of something like bursting the hunter down before he bursted you down, which would be a bit over the top for a healer, wont it?
    In duels I can hold a draw against equally geared (485) hunters for hours. But even in my 45s burst I can´t kill him. Even a hunter has more selfheal than I can dmg him. R-Shaman and R-Druid are a bit lost here. Discs and Monks are better off.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    So what if they decided to tune it so that healing and tank specs aren't good at PvP?
    The most fun I had as a tank in PvP was in SWTOR. In that game, your taunt reduced damage on the target by 30% unless they attacked you. They also had an ability to guard an ally that transferred 50% of their damage taken to you. It made tanking amazingly fun because you had the tools to protect people in PvP.

  17. #17
    Legendary! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Tanks can go, but healers are essential to this game.

  18. #18
    I highly doubt that Blizz will make 1 PVP spec per class. Pure Damage Dealers like Mages and Rogues could be forced into 1 spec - after all their specs are more or less the same by concept. However I doubt they would force a Priest to PVP in Disc as there would be an uproar of Shadow Priests complaining that they don't want to heal and that Blizz makes them reroll. Can't blame them really. And what about Shamans? They have a healer spec, a ranged DD spec and a melee DD spec.

    Considering Blizz will make 1 officially viable PVP spec per pure DD class and 2 specs for hybrids capable of healing. Mages will get Frost obviously, Priests - Shadow and Disc, Rogues - Subtlety, Paladins - Retri and Holy, etc. Then what about Shamans and Druids? Will they get 3 viable PVP specs all of a sudden? It would've been pretty disheartening to hear that your favorite feral cat spec is no longer supported, now go play Moonkin. On the other hand it's quite lame to be in the shoes of pure DD classes. Hybrids get 2 specs and Druids+Shamans get whopping 3?! Daaayumn!

    To even things out they could introduce new (4th) specs for everyone but Druids in the next expac, effectively making all classes hybrids or giving some pures a second PVP viable spec from scratch. Melee Battle Mages, melee Demon Hunters, ranged Inquisitor Paladin and so on. But that would almost negate the class squish! Instead of reducing PVP balancing from 34 spec to 11 we'll have ~25.

    They could add healing specs only to the pure classes, but that's quite a stretch as some classes would be better off receiving tank specs instead of heals (Rogues, Hunters).

    The most probable outcome is Blizz cutting pure classes into only 1 officially viable PVP spec and I don't like that variant. Also the whole MoP talent trees concept contradicts the PVP spec squish, so that would need a redesign too.



    As for healers, sometimes I just hate them. 3 healers in a random WSG is like a nightmare. Left 1 on 1 with a Healer in Arena is awful. Evenly matched 2v2 arenas with endless mana of healers is so frustrating! But making WoW PVP completely devoid of healers is so radical that I doubt it would work.

    I don't approve tanks in PVP, so I'm fine with them going away. Healers on the other hand could use some tuning, like people above said. In my opinion the overall damage in PVP should be toned down, the pace of battles slowed a bit, number of CCs and instants reduced. Healers should be healing for less and be greatly concerned about mana. 1 on 1 a DPS class shouldn't bring them down easily, but rather through lucky crits and timely CC or wearing their mana pool down. Dispels shouldn't be on 8 sec cd, but limited by high mana cost, so that there is a choice - to dispel or to conserve mana. Healers should use slower efficient heals, not being afraid that their teammate is going to be globalled and burning their mana if heals are desperately needed. If there's a window of opportunity - they should be able to cast some damaging spells, so that they feel more like 1/2 healer, 1/2 damage dealer compared to now.

    That way healers aren't frustrating to fight as (or against) in 1 on 1 scenario. DPS can wear them down, but they themselves can meaningfully fight back and don't be forced to pillar hump and prolong the boring fight.
    Last edited by Nightfall; 2013-04-26 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Doublepost

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