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  1. #1

    Question healer trinket question: chalice, etc

    Let me just start by saying Ive read a number of the threads regarding Holy/Disc and the newer trinkets. But what I am not seeing in any of the threads is actual numbers or some type of log/back up to show why so and so trinket is bad. So my question is: as either Holy or Disc, why is the Chalice a bad trinket? As disc, at least on normal 25 mode, mana is never an issue. As Holy, I do go out of mana by the end of the fight but Ive never been in a fight where I am sweating bullets with no mana in our 25 man.

    Now I am not a huge math person, and a lot of people on here are way further along then I am. Mazi for example. But without any logs or numbers, I just cannot figure out what is bad about the Chalice as a whole for either spec?

    With regards to the other SPI trinkets: is the static SPI from those any better then a twice upgraded normal Spirits of the Sun?

    Thank you for the help and input. I appreciate it.

  2. #2
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...?s=1190&e=1856

    from disc PoV, its ok. that parse was 2.1% healing, ive seen it as high as 4%. i believe that was with the ilvl522 version, ive not got the TF chalice, so hoping for a little more. during progression fights when damage isnt as controlled i can imagine it will do a smidge more healing (more chance of people not already being topped off). i haven't got logs of last night on HC Ji Kun, our normal WoL uploader was afk.

    a 2/2 upgrades spirits of the sun is nice, im not loving the spirit trinkets in ToT, id prefer static int, purely on a stat budgeting standpoint.

    if you have mana probs as holy, run the 2/2 spirits with another regen tirnket (shado-pan rep item for example). if you dont need the mana, swap out for the chalice

  3. #3
    If you never have any mana issues you are simply gearing for too much regen, it is always a trade-off. Chalice basically means that you gain that proc, but have to sacrifice X amount of int (at least 500, probably more) regemed into spirit to ensure that you have the same regen. Most players simply prefer the reliability of that int over the chalice proc. Math wise I haven't really compared this after the chalice buff, but I'd imagine that it's a fair trade-off if you don't mind the rng nature of the proc. Personally 2/2 spirits hc+horridons would be my choice for normal mode (with qin-xi's and shado-pan just below spirits), but if I had access to the heroic version I'd probably consider chalice+horridons BiS (again, I haven't actually done the math yet, so just guesstimates).

    Regarding the spirit trinkets they are quite awful, itembudget wise 2 spirit=1 int meaning that the passive is very weak compared to chalice, horridons or even spirits hc. In addition to this the active shield procs are quite awful (even with the buffs). To me both of those trinkets are basically enchanting mats. I haven't compared them to normal spirits but I'd imagine that it'd be superior as well.

    I might add some math later, in a bit of a rush atm.

  4. #4
    Lei Shen and Horridon trinket are BiS for Disc this tier, imo. The only class that should use static spirit trinkets is Shamans.

  5. #5
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    I think it's usually between 3-5% of your healing depending on a few factors.

    Personally I really want it because the spirit trinkets are garbage in ToT. 3% might not seem like a lot but increasing your healing by 3% by just a proc on one item is a decent amount.

  6. #6
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    I currently run at 13k spirit with the healing trinket from lei shen + the crit proccing trinket from lei shen, I do also have the legendary meta gem, and mana is never a problem for me. Havent gotten the horridon trinket to drop yet, when it does, i'm gonna switch the crit proc trinket and drop some more spirit.

    As cookie stated above, spirit trinkets are way underbudgeted and its much better if you gem for the spirit you need. If you have trouble with your mana even though you are fully spirit gemed i suggest you run int trinkets with regen procs. If thats the case though you might not play the mana game good enough.

    Using solace/mb on cd and get as many rapture procs as you can possibly get are key to this, along with good spell usage ofc=)

  7. #7
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    I'd suggest using Spirits of the Sun and Horridon's Last Grasp for holy since they're giving the best bang for your buck. After getting the legendary meta and stacking a good amount of spirit preferably using gems, I'd suggest you switch to int flask/food first for throughput increase, and in the end maybe switch to mastery/spirit gems or pure mastery gems instead of pure spirit ones to maximize your throughput. (this is at 100% inner fire uptime)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorfie View Post
    Lei Shen and Horridon trinket are BiS for Disc this tier, imo. The only class that should use static spirit trinkets is Shamans.
    Depending on play style, I would argue that the Lei Shen trinket and the dps crit trinket (Chen Ye's or w/e its called, having a blonde moment) would be about equal. I personally really dislike RNG trinkets when it comes to healing, such as most of the ones this tier, so I would rather have some static crit and an int proc versus static int and a random proc that with overheal half the time.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Asyra View Post
    Depending on play style, I would argue that the Lei Shen trinket and the dps crit trinket (Chen Ye's or w/e its called, having a blonde moment) would be about equal. I personally really dislike RNG trinkets when it comes to healing, such as most of the ones this tier, so I would rather have some static crit and an int proc versus static int and a random proc that with overheal half the time.
    You could say the 4 piece bonus is just a random proc that overheals half the time, but it still does 3-5% of my healing. More healing is more healing, and the proc is pretty reliable.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorfie View Post
    You could say the 4 piece bonus is just a random proc that overheals half the time, but it still does 3-5% of my healing. More healing is more healing, and the proc is pretty reliable.
    Except the 4 pc bonus is way stronger for holy than it is for Disc, ending up being less than 1% of someones healing on certain fights. Along with the fact that not all the tier items are that well itemized for disc, you are just as good off getting items that are itemized perfectly which leads to an overall increase in healing anyway. I would rather have higher stats overall, than a "reliable" proc.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Brightmist View Post
    I'd suggest using Spirits of the Sun and Horridon's Last Grasp ...
    So I'm not the only one in the world misread the "horridon's last gasp"... I only found out after having it for more than a month!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Asyra View Post
    Except the 4 pc bonus is way stronger for holy than it is for Disc, ending up being less than 1% of someones healing on certain fights. Along with the fact that not all the tier items are that well itemized for disc, you are just as good off getting items that are itemized perfectly which leads to an overall increase in healing anyway. I would rather have higher stats overall, than a "reliable" proc.
    I've never seen my 4 set as Disc below 3%, and have seen it up to 6% on Heroic Primordius where all I do is atonement. The set pieces aren't terrible, assuming you drop gloves for the heroic Primordius ones. You get a little extra haste than I'd like, but it's definitely worth it. This is coming from a 10 man perspective however, where I've only seen 1 thunderforged piece in 7 full clears. If I was doing 25 man it might be worth dropping 4 set.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorfie View Post
    I've never seen my 4 set as Disc below 3%, and have seen it up to 6% on Heroic Primordius where all I do is atonement. The set pieces aren't terrible, assuming you drop gloves for the heroic Primordius ones. You get a little extra haste than I'd like, but it's definitely worth it. This is coming from a 10 man perspective however, where I've only seen 1 thunderforged piece in 7 full clears. If I was doing 25 man it might be worth dropping 4 set.
    Ya, on 25H Prim this week, the 4 set did 0.9% of my healing and I think 3% is the highest I have ever seen on any fight this tier. Its much harder to keep Penance on CD in 25M, at least during Heroic progression (depending on playstyle and role, of course). So I might go back to it at some point, but for now, I'll pass. The only pieces I plan on keeping are the shoulder/chest. Would much rather have Tort helm, Prim gloves and Duru legs.

  14. #14
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    I find the 4-set very strong, dont forget it can crit, and when it does, you also get a DA from it. I dont understand why you dont use penance on cd, using it offensive is very high hps, what would you do if you dont use it on cd?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Gottan View Post
    I find the 4-set very strong, dont forget it can crit, and when it does, you also get a DA from it. I dont understand why you dont use penance on cd, using it offensive is very high hps, what would you do if you dont use it on cd?
    In H 25M there are plenty of times that you wouldn't use it on CD because if you do, you aren't being the most effective you can be. Prime examples are stacking SS, seeing that you need the full 15 seconds on 25M to try and get as much coverage you can. During periods of high AoE damage, such as H Meg Rampage, Lightning Storm on H Jin, Discharge during H Council, Ro'shak phase/Fist Smash H IQ, Suen Phase H Twins. I'm not saying that I don't make good use of penance, I use it plenty, but keeping in 100% on CD is just not practical in a 25M H setting, at least until a month from now when its all so easy I can just /afk dps the whole time. And because of this, I would rather have extra static stats.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asyra View Post
    In H 25M there are plenty of times that you wouldn't use it on CD because if you do, you aren't being the most effective you can be. Prime examples are stacking SS, seeing that you need the full 15 seconds on 25M to try and get as much coverage you can. During periods of high AoE damage, such as H Meg Rampage, Lightning Storm on H Jin, Discharge during H Council, Ro'shak phase/Fist Smash H IQ, Suen Phase H Twins. I'm not saying that I don't make good use of penance, I use it plenty, but keeping in 100% on CD is just not practical in a 25M H setting, at least until a month from now when its all so easy I can just /afk dps the whole time. And because of this, I would rather have extra static stats.
    Fair enough if raid is topped and you have ss popped, but if raid is not topped and ss popped, penance would most likely be just as good.

  17. #17
    Penance is more hps than poh. Unless it goes to overheal, you should cast offensive penance even with SS up.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Asyra View Post
    In H 25M there are plenty of times that you wouldn't use it on CD because if you do, you aren't being the most effective you can be. Prime examples are stacking SS, seeing that you need the full 15 seconds on 25M to try and get as much coverage you can. During periods of high AoE damage, such as H Meg Rampage, Lightning Storm on H Jin, Discharge during H Council, Ro'shak phase/Fist Smash H IQ, Suen Phase H Twins. I'm not saying that I don't make good use of penance, I use it plenty, but keeping in 100% on CD is just not practical in a 25M H setting, at least until a month from now when its all so easy I can just /afk dps the whole time. And because of this, I would rather have extra static stats.
    Here's the catch, offensive penance is just as strong/stronger than PoH even in aoe situations. This combined with the fact that it doesn't consume borrowed time means that you basically want to use it close to on cd even in situations with extreme aoe damage. Not using penance when aoe damage is going out is a very common misstake, but it's simply that good right now. Stacking spirit shell on a full hp raid is the only time where you don't want to use it on cd.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Here's the catch, offensive penance is just as strong/stronger than PoH even in aoe situations. This combined with the fact that it doesn't consume borrowed time means that you basically want to use it close to on cd even in situations with extreme aoe damage. Not using penance when aoe damage is going out is a very common misstake, but it's simply that good right now. Stacking spirit shell on a full hp raid is the only time where you don't want to use it on cd.
    Which 10man shares the same problem, with the added "benefit" that if a boss targets you with an ability you need to move for, he's probably gonna do it twice.

    Fuckers.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    Which 10man shares the same problem, with the added "benefit" that if a boss targets you with an ability you need to move for, he's probably gonna do it twice.

    Fuckers.
    I am very confused right now:P

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