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  1. #1
    The Patient
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    Discussing Solutions to Arms Fiasko

    Currently Arms is in a really bad spot both PvE and PvP and also completely lacks the dynamic and proccy playstyle it used to make it fun. Fortunately in PvE we have Fury, which is a decent Alternative, being alright in single target dmg and all.

    Now i've thought about possible Solutions how to fix Arms, making it more fun and less stale in PvE while not buffing it to stupid OP levels in PvP again.
    Here is what i'd like to see atm. Those suggestions are purely mechanic wise, numbers would ofc have to be adjusted.

    Give Arms a real Raid Role:

    Currently its Role is being the spec for ppl who dont have 2 2Handers yet or lack gear. That is really boring. On the other Hand switching Specs depending on Encounter is fun and other classes certainly do that aswell (Many other classes do it).

    -So why not make Arms the AoE-Centered DPS spec, thats slightly behind Fury in Single Target. The Tools are certainly in place (except for the horrible Mastery for AoE). For this Sweeping Strike would certainly have to be fixed. Currently its completely useless in PvE and even more useless in PvP since it double Dips Resilience. Also Whirlwind is rather pathetic for Arms. Make it hit harder, just as Arms spec.

    Overpower:
    Im sick of Overpower being the Button that hits for exactly the same dmg every time, even during Recklessness. Its also the single Reason why we are scaling like shit in the Endgame but at the same time have way too much Basedmg both in low ilvl and PvP. I propose the following changes:

    - Remove the Bonus Crit.
    - Make it cost 5 Rage.

    This would make it scale better with crit, decrease pvp dmg from OP drastically and on the same time free up some rage to use on other abilities.
    If it truly has to be a crit centered ability it should function like chaosbolt, with maybe 80-90% Weapondmg or so.


    Taste for Blood:

    I think the basic concept of Taste for blood procs is pretty good. The problem is that atm its not a real proc anymore and thus completely stale and boring. I understand that the old Version doesnt work, making it a proc of a proc that triggers a strong off-GCD attack, but there are better solutions than making it a static mechanice like it is atm:

    -MS only procs 1 Taste for Blood stack
    -Slam has a 50% Chance to proc OP aswell

    No we would actually weave in Slams outside of Recklessness once in awhile, since there is less Taste For Blood procs overall and we also have the Rage since OP only costs 5 Rage now.


    Slows:

    Currently Harmstring feels really bad. The effect is really nice being physical and all, but its a pain in the ass to apply, yet mandatory. We are the only melee class who's slow requires a GCD, primary Ressources and melee range to be applied. On the same time we are the class that relies the most on having the slow up. This makes the whole concept of sticking to a target really frustrating. I understand that an autoslow combined with our mobility and our current pvp dmg we would be too strong (thinking 5.0), but combined with the pvp dmg nerfs mentioned above i suggest the following solution:

    - Harmstring stays like it is
    - Piercing Howl applies same Harmstring effect
    - Cleave and Heroic Strike extend the Harmstring effect to its natural duration (yet they dont apply a slow)

    Now you would still have to apply it manually once in awhile, but would also have the option to invest a bigger amount of Rage on HS/Cleave for gaining an additional GCD every 8 Secs.

    Final Thoughts:
    So this would be my suggestions of an easy way to bring back the fun to arms, without introducing completely new mechanics. What are your thoughts on this? Do you guys have any ideas what can be done to adress our problems? One thing is clear to me, Arms cant stay like it is and has to be fixed. After all the spec is the real reason why i rolled warrior...

  2. #2
    Agreed that arms could use an AoE buff, they should go ahead and bump up Sweeping Strikes back to 100% and give it back it's old cleaving power, having Aff and Destro warlocks do more 2-target cleave damage than Arms is just plain stupid, considering it was always an Arms and Combat trademark.

    In Cataclysm early MoP beta build we had Overpower with 0 extra crit chance and much higher weapon damage, and to be honest that felt even worse, it was hard to tell apart a Slam from a Mortal strike from an Overpower number wise. I like the extra Overpower crit chance but would be nice if the crits would have any kind of actual meaning.

    Suggestion that I made on official forums some time ago, got fairly positive feedback so I'll copy paste: Replace the horrible Arms mastery (in turn greatly increase white swing Sudden Death chance) with a modified version of the old Deep Wounds:

    Deep Wounds Mastery: Target bleeds for 20% (+1% every 300 mastery or so) of all your critical hits over 12s, rolling like a strong Ignite dot.

    This would adress 4 problems at the same time:
    1. Reliable way to increasing Arms sustained dps in both PvE and PvP
    2. without increasing Arms PvP burst (Reckbannatar would instead leave one hell of a dot behind)
    3. Better secondary stat scaling for arms with a mastery that synergizing greatly with crit chance.
    4. A mastery that actually increases our AoE damage output in a significant way, just like it does for Fury.

    Would also bring back some of that old Warrior bleed flavor that kind of feels missing these days, no offense Bloodbath.
    Last edited by Calamari; 2013-05-09 at 02:27 PM.
    They stack the bodies high, reaching for a castle in the sky.
    Ikelos@Argent Dawn EU

  3. #3
    I actually enjoy the fluidity of Arms atm (outside of lusts on boss fights with constant shit going on, aka Jin'Rohk with a few puddles out) however I'd say that Sweeping Strikes and the Mastery need a bit more tuning.
    If I recall(and I could be mistaken), it was originally nerfed because of cleave fights with modifiers (Garalon) it was doing too much damage comparatively and proceeded to get nerfed below Fury.
    That being the case, they already overhauled Arms to the point where I feel they could change a few more things and I don't think many would mind. Specifically, I'd rather see Arms as the better single target (depending on it's performance in pvp compared to other melee) while having Sweeping Strikes follow Colossus Smash in that it's PvE/PvP roles are a bit modified. I'd suggest Sweeping Strikes become a cd used to have increased damage output temporarily (aka, 50% chance for any attack to hit a second time, ala Sword Spec-ish).

  4. #4
    Blademaster Yngver's Avatar
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    What do you guys think of this idea I just got:

    Sudden death gives you 2 options: either you reset the cd on CS, or your next slam has its rage reduced with 100% and hits for like 30% more or so. That way when your SD procs and your CS is just about to go of cd you could save the proc and use an empowered slam right after your CS, and you get to use slam more. And if you get 2 fast SD procs in a row that would give you some nice damage output. Maybe it would make mastery scale better aswell as more mastery means more oppertunity strikes which means more SD procs. ^^
    This is just me kinda brainstorming, might be way too op for pvp?

    About sweeping strikes, it's an overexaggeration to say that its completely useless for PvE, but it could use some tweaking for sure, doesn't feel fun to use right now, I liked it more when it was kind of this powerful cd, instead of "something you can maintain for some extra damage when fighting 2+ mobs" like it is now.

    One thing I really like with arms in PvE compared to fury is that storm bolt is way more viable as you want to use SB when CS is up, and you have more CS uptime as arms so that makes it easier to use SB off cd (big crits, yay!).
    For Khaz Modan!!

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  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    1.) Buff the AoE or the cleave. Either buff SS back to 100, or to 75 or something, or make it so you can glyph it to hit a 3rd target for 25% damage. Increase the Wep damage percentage of WW.

    2.) Buff mastery. Make mastery a higher weapon damage percentage.

    Not sure if those would fix it but they'd definitely improve the numbers somewhat.

  6. #6
    I dont think that Arms a fiasko at all. I really like the solid, not RNG dependant playstyle which arms offers. I've played Arms the last two expansions, and after getting used to charge,see big numbers, rage management etc none of my other toons seems to appeal me anymore.

    The only thing I want to see buffed is the AOE.

  7. #7
    Not everyone enjoys a "proccy" playstyle.. personally I find arms quite fine atm, they just need to upscale the damage(specially AoE) a bit to make it align with the other melee.
    Last edited by Frakchaw; 2013-05-08 at 08:13 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    In cata we had Overpower with 0 extra crit chance
    Are you sure? I'm fairly certain OP has had extra crit chance the entire time I've been playing my warrior...at least with a talent, anyway.

  9. #9
    Arms became playable for me again in 5.2. The way it worked at the start of MoP totally turned me off and made me shelve my warrior altogether, since I was never a fan of the Fury playstyle anyway. Right now, I'm enjoying Arms a lot again. It's fine as it is.
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  10. #10
    The Patient
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    Ok apparently most people enjoy the rather static and predictable playstyle, which is fine i suppose. If you want procs just go Fury.
    The problem that remains is the bad scaling with secondary stats and the way too high basedmg in low lvl gear.
    So what we need is a more generally viable Mastery and maybe some form of Crit interacting to offset the bad crit scaling of Overpower.

    I actually like the idea of the Deep Wounds Mastery posted above (obviously some renaming would have to be done). Also for Bladestorm and Whirlwind need to be adressed, since they both are balanced for dual wielding and not for Arms.

    Generally i dont like that most ppl are just calling out for straight buffs. This wouldnt be a solution long term tho, since this would just increase the current scaling problems...Mechanics is what has to be changed.

  11. #11
    My Arms proposals:

    1. Sweeping Strikes reverted to 30 sec CD, 10 sec duration, no rage cost, 100% damage cleave.

    2. Deadly Calm brought back for Arms (Cata version). All abilities cost 0 rage for 15 seconds, 2 min CD.
    Note: The reason Deadly Calm is one of my fav CDs, or was at the time, was because you weren't supposed to stack it with Recklessness. Stacking CD's is super boring, and really takes a lot of fun out of Arms imo.

    3. Slam needs to replace Overpower during Colossus Smash windows - some passive like...

    Unrelenting Assault
    When you Slam a target suffering from Colossus Smash, the cost of your next Slam is reduced by 5 and deals 15% more damage. This effect lasts 6 seconds and stacks up to two times.

    The idea being that during normal rotation, you use MS, OP, OP, X. When you get a Colossus Smash proc, you'd change to MS > Slam > X > Overpower. Slam hopefully doing enough damage, at a reduced rage cost to make it way better than overpower and rage free fillers during a Colossus Smash, and at the same time not completely emptying your rage bar.

    4. Incite comes back but tied to mastery and haste: Incite - your Strikes of Opportunity and auto attacks have a 20% chance to grant Incite. Incite increases the critical strike chance of your next Heroic Strike by 100% and reduces the rage cost by 100%.

    5. Cleave buffed so it's actually worth using.

    6. Spell reflection reworked so you can use it with a 2H weapon as Arms.

    7. Shield wall reworked so you can use it with a 2h weapon as Arms
    OR
    8. An AMS type move for physical damage as Arms - Ignore Pain or something, allowing us to absorb 75% of all physical damage done to us over 6 secs, granting an extremely high amount of rage for damage taken. Basically, trying to get back to "don't train the warrior" mentality that there used to be. People used to be scared of feeding us rage and us then going berserk and one-shotting everything. Now we just get completely focused all game because we can't do anything while playing defensively.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcall View Post
    Are you sure? I'm fairly certain OP has had extra crit chance the entire time I've been playing my warrior...at least with a talent, anyway.
    During Cataclysm Enrage used to proc off melee special attack crits. Since they didn't like Arms having a high Enrage uptime through Overpower crits, they instead removed the crit chance bonus on it and turned Overpower into a cheap to cast Mortal Strike for a while, until reverting the change in MoP.
    They stack the bodies high, reaching for a castle in the sky.
    Ikelos@Argent Dawn EU

  13. #13
    No no no no no.

    Balance Arms for PvP. If you want to raid, you go Fury. We won't have more than 1 spec viable for PvP/PvE, but one for each.

    Arms = PvP

    Fury = PvE

    Play Fury.

  14. #14
    Why? Mages have three very viable pve dps specs, two of which are very viable in pvp as well. Locks also, albeit not quite so pvp viable as they have been in the past right now. Likewise DKs don't have a 'pve' and a 'pvp' spec. Why should we?

  15. #15
    I'd be content with Arms lack of umpf if we weren't so fragile. Melee in general have become the red shirts of LFR. A tank loses aggro, they die. A healer goes down, they die. If they get caught in a tight spot, they die. I'd be interested in comparisons of the numbers of deaths of melee compared to range. It might call into question the merit of giving range higher damage AND higher practical survivability.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia View Post
    Why? Mages have three very viable pve dps specs, two of which are very viable in pvp as well. Locks also, albeit not quite so pvp viable as they have been in the past right now. Likewise DKs don't have a 'pve' and a 'pvp' spec. Why should we?
    Because blizzard are incapable of balancing around 10 specs let alone 30+.

    1 spec for PvP, 1 for PvE, makes things easier for them, gives us better balance.

    No mages play frost in "higher end" PvE.
    UH is the DK PvP spec.
    Lock PvP spec was almost always affliction, until they gave another spec a 1shot button and turned aff dots into 2k tickles.

    It's better for balance.

  17. #17
    The Patient
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    UH DK is also the PvE DPS Spec...also frost is situationallz used and so are all 3 Warlock specs...

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    UH is the DK PvP spec.
    Unholy is also the prime PvE specc right now (with a wide gap to frost, all those nerfs to it on the frontpage have a good reason ), so what? All warlocks speccs are viable for PvP, so what again? All hybrids have viable dps and heal specc, druids in fact two.

    Your statement is just wrong, we warriors are an archaic debris and need several fixes on all sides to actually compete on what we were good ... a long time ago. I still remember those times fighting bosses in classic when somebody announced sub 20% "and here they come" and warrior skyrocketed on the meters. And today? My execute barely crit for 70k in pvp while i ate just yesterday night a 180k shadowburn crit while sitting in defstance, "yay" for the balance.

  19. #19
    Whatever it takes im jsut tired they sit around with their thumbs in their ass not doing anything because they cant figure out a long term solution to make arms a well functioning spec in both pve and pvp. So instead they plug their ears ignore the problem and hope it goes away. out of sight out of mind right???

    my sugestion is shifting more of our inexistant burst damage into bleeds damage, because Blizz will never allow us to have competative burst dps. Thats something only their pet mages + frost DKS + rogues are entitled to now.

    They dont give a fk about frost mage burst, but the moment arms does good burst and kills some lobotomy patients with cds up, they hotfix our damage within days. suggest they get rid of the strikes of opportunity and turn it into a bleed, its a sh***y ass unrelbiable RNG mechanic that either happen when you need it or leave you hanging when you need it most. Then you finally get a lucky chain of procs with reck+ skull banner and some slow witted bADDy just stands there eating it all and dying. that mage then posts a screenshot on forum and crying like a btch for nerfs about our burst and gets it. so fking tiring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Choptimus View Post
    Because blizzard are incapable of balancing around 10 specs let alone 30+.

    1 spec for PvP, 1 for PvE, makes things easier for them, gives us better balance.

    No mages play frost in "higher end" PvE.
    UH is the DK PvP spec.
    Lock PvP spec was almost always affliction, until they gave another spec a 1shot button and turned aff dots into 2k tickles.

    It's better for balance.
    you are not entitled to tell anyone how to play the game. Some people enjoy arms more than fury in pve. Deal. With. It.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    During Cataclysm Enrage used to proc off melee special attack crits. Since they didn't like Arms having a high Enrage uptime through Overpower crits, they instead removed the crit chance bonus on it and turned Overpower into a cheap to cast Mortal Strike for a while, until reverting the change in MoP.
    Again, that is not how I recall it at all. In fact, I'm looking at the Cata 4.3 talent trees right now, and it is exactly as I remember it, with TfB being a 3 point talent that increases your OP crit chance by 20% per point and gives a 33% chance per point to allow Rend ticks to proc OP.

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