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  1. #1

    Arms t15 2 pc, gaze/twins and stat weights

    Hello fellow barrel smashers. Couple questions... I sim myself on the reg, usually whenever I get a new piece of gear. I plug my weights into AMR and max DPS whenever I get a new piece as well. I like to think I'm an above average player and love beating out my guildies as arms. I haven't tried raiding as fury yet, my oh would be 483 shin ka, gross. So I stick to arms. I regularly pull 120k + single target and when RNG decides to be my sweetie I can get to near 130 single target. AoE is a joke. Anyways...

    My haste and mastery weights flip flop. If I go full haste, haste is my top priority. When I go mastery, mastery is my top priority. This leads me to believe there's an optimal level of haste to mastery ratio that's somewhere between my reforges. Thoughts?

    edit: Ive simmed myself as both, obviously, and when I went haste my dps was ~600 less than mastery reforges.

    Gaze of the twins. Its for sures a love hate relationship. If haste keeps this baby on a higher uptime, why isn't my simcraft telling me to go all out haste, no question?

    This relates to my first question. Can strikes of opportunity process my t15 pc? Like the 2nd hit for 50% damage. Not the initial strike. I know the initial strike can proc it.

    Armory is...
    Kaloras
    Cho gall
    Horde
    Last edited by Karben; 2013-04-27 at 06:42 AM.

  2. #2
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
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    Crit is more important for Gaze uptime then haste.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karben View Post
    My haste and mastery weights flip flop. If I go full haste, haste is my top priority. When I go mastery, mastery is my top priority. This leads me to believe there's an optimal level of haste to mastery ratio that's somewhere between my reforges. Thoughts?

    edit: Ive simmed myself as both, obviously, and when I went haste my dps was ~600 less than mastery reforges.

    Gaze of the twins. Its for sures a love hate relationship. If haste keeps this baby on a higher uptime, why isn't my simcraft telling me to go all out haste, no question?

    This relates to my first question. Can strikes of opportunity process my t15 pc? Like the 2nd hit for 50% damage. Not the initial strike. I know the initial strike can proc it.
    My sims do the same thing as arms. Bouncing either way depending on which I have stacked. I run a haste arms build... if you look across the spectrum its 50/50. Recently I even went as far as forging out of a bit of crit (not gemming) and when I get more data with the Gaze I'll post more, but I've seen the gain in melee a bit better than the Mastery proc. In answer to your question about the OpStrike proccing RPPM, yes it procs them.

    This is a log just after I got the Gaze and went for a test run with a full haste forge. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...0/?s=274&e=787
    with this build http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ppolyon/simple

    Also
    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 12:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Roseby View Post
    Crit is more important for Gaze uptime then haste.
    @Roseby, I've seen your logs several times so I know of you and I know you're a great player....but, its on any crit (not like the enrage effect from BT as fury). So, with Overpower sitting close to 100% and the off chances of all of the rest of your abilities. Gaze isn't ever waiting for a crit to proc. I would certainly agree if you were talkin about MS crits and their advantage - but they aren't needed for the proc. I'm critting from something almost 100% of the time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 02:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Appolyon View Post
    My sims do the same thing as arms. Bouncing either way depending on which I have stacked. I run a haste arms build... if you look across the spectrum its 50/50. Recently I even went as far as forging out of a bit of crit (not gemming) and when I get more data with the Gaze I'll post more, but I've seen the gain in melee a bit better than the Mastery proc. In answer to your question about the OpStrike proccing RPPM, yes it procs them.

    This is a log just after I got the Gaze and went for a test run with a full haste forge. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...0/?s=274&e=787
    with this build http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ppolyon/simple

    Also
    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 12:41 PM ----------



    @Roseby, I've seen your logs several times so I know of you and I know you're a great player....but, its on any crit (not like the enrage effect from BT as fury). So, with Overpower sitting close to 100% and the off chances of all of the rest of your abilities. Gaze isn't ever waiting for a crit to proc. I would certainly agree if you were talkin about MS crits and their advantage - but they aren't needed for the proc. I'm critting from something almost 100% of the time.


    EDIT: I just lost my mind to try this craziness to its n'th degree. I think there is a "crit cap" it would seem to be around 20%. Again, purely trying strange for the sake of science.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 02:30 PM ----------

    my other thought about this is that once Haste overtakes Crit that the raid buff is doubly better
    Last edited by Appolyon; 2013-04-27 at 07:52 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Appolyon View Post
    @Roseby, I've seen your logs several times so I know of you and I know you're a great player....but, its on any crit (not like the enrage effect from BT as fury). So, with Overpower sitting close to 100% and the off chances of all of the rest of your abilities. Gaze isn't ever waiting for a crit to proc. I would certainly agree if you were talkin about MS crits and their advantage - but they aren't needed for the proc. I'm critting from something almost 100% of the time.
    Gaze's RPPM proc rate scales with both crit and haste. The formula for it (and the caster equivalent crit trinket) has both crit and haste in it, something along the lines of: actual RPPM = base RPPM*(1+MeleeCritChance)*(1+MeleeHaste%). So it does scale with crit, though not as fast as it does with haste, as you need less haste rating for 1% haste than you do for 1% crit.

  5. #5
    appolyon, i'm actually curious as to if it was a massive dmg increase switching to haste>crit at that point. i play arms myself and though not as well geared, i am thinking of my theorizing in the future. interesting some on EJ have theorized and simed a 16k crit point and after that haste beats it, but it looks like you are hitting half that crit and then all out haste, i'm actually surprised and in wonder to know how well you do compairatively before and after.

  6. #6
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bietr View Post
    appolyon, i'm actually curious as to if it was a massive dmg increase switching to haste>crit at that point. i play arms myself and though not as well geared, i am thinking of my theorizing in the future. interesting some on EJ have theorized and simed a 16k crit point and after that haste beats it, but it looks like you are hitting half that crit and then all out haste, i'm actually surprised and in wonder to know how well you do compairatively before and after.
    Huge gains, no. However, the advantages...

    1) Less mastery is worth more: More white hits=more chances to proc OpStrikes
    2) More 100% hits passively inside of a CS, given that CS is up so much more of the time - that is a decent jump.
    3) An albeit small help, RPPM's are more frequent.
    4) Rage seems much better. Even with CS up so much I still have more "dump" in most of them.
    5) I have no significant sense in terms of playstyle or "BIG NUMBERS" that I've "lost too much crit."

    Simply put I gave up roughly 10% crit for 20% haste and no I get a 10% raid buff instead of 5% of my best green stat. Lust/Hero feels MUCH better. My parses show "Melee" came up 3 places relative to my total damage done to now being #2. The best part of that from a raid perspective is that as long as you are in range, even on a hectic fight, you're doing more damage passively from OpStrikes and white hits. Now I just have to hope that the DK/Pallies in my raid have all gotten their off pieces so I can get some more goodies (SoZ etc) to really push this a bit further. I'd love to see what it would be with something closer to 50%. I will certainly keep the updates comin.

  7. #7
    We need to focus on all stats now.
    Its not like in 5.1 that we can ignore haste and we cant ignore mastery either.

    We need to find a balance between those stats even if it means that you have to lower your crit a litle bit.

    Personly i think focus on mastery first when you got enough mastery focus on haste its ok if you end up whith more haste aslong if you got enough mastery.
    Last edited by Aremas; 2013-05-07 at 06:50 AM.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aremas View Post
    We need to focus on all stats now...Personly i think focus on mastery first when you got enough mastery focus on haste its ok if you end up whith more haste aslong if you got enough mastery.
    I completely disagree. Arms Mastery is nowhere near as good as haste atm. Try it for yourself before you op:ed. Actually try it in game, not just sim it. At lower gear levels and without PPM's maybe, but that's not the point of this thread.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aremas View Post
    We need to focus on all stats now.
    Its not like in 5.1 that we can ignore haste and we cant ignore mastery either.

    We need to find a balance between those stats even if it means that you have to lower your crit a litle bit.

    Personly i think focus on mastery first when you got enough mastery focus on haste its ok if you end up whith more haste aslong if you got enough mastery.
    That's 100% bogus. There are ALWAYS stats of greater value to some degree than others for warriors. We don't have things like haste breakpoints like boomkins.

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    We don't have things like haste breakpoints like boomkins.
    This is the Holy Grail of a theorycrafter Dark my friend.... I am on that quest. I WISH!!! Sadly, at 525 iLevel its still mush - as best I can tell though....

    Assuming you have 5+ PPMs (Weapon, Meta, Trinkets, 2pc)
    1) Prioritize plate gear with Haste/Crit when looting
    2) Forge/Gem for crit to +/- 24-25%ish
    3) Get ALLL of the haste you can after that.
    4) Get Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun .616 RealPPM
    win.

    PS: Mastery is poop.

  11. #11
    being that this is a theory and trinket thread, i'm wondering about another trinket rq. looking at the Spark of Zandalar specifically. i have heard that it can have quite a bit of up time, granted with enough haste to keep the stacks rolling. biggest thing i'm wondering is at what point in our gear progression would it possibly take over say fabled feather.

    as arms if we can get our haste up there to have wouldn't a proc giving 60ish% of the final str bonus from feather with a higher uptime be a dmg increase?

  12. #12
    ^--^
    I just wondered about that very same thing last night, when my Gaze of the Twins dropped.
    I have just went Arms (after getting the 2hander from council) after about 6 months a Fury - reroll from years of druid tanking.
    Its not like we have alot threads about Arms gearing or Arms BiS lists as Fury does, so i have been gathering info from severel places to get a rough idea of what to go for.
    The general concensus is that its crit>haste>mastery to a certain point.
    But as i have gone for crit over haste as Fury, and my gear reflects it, im right now sitting on 26.93% crit and 15.28% haste.
    The crit is a bit lower now that i got that trinket, as i traded the Shado-pan assault trinket out for the Gaze. (as i couldnt reforge as much expertise away)
    I tested it a bit (the Gaze) last night after the raid. It doesnt seem to be up that much, and when it does, it rarely stacks.
    So i was wondering about getting the Spark of Zandalar instead, as it would push more hits into the CS debuff.
    Armory just in case. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Jonx/advanced
    Quote Originally Posted by Seyna Starstrider View Post
    And anyone who says the alpha model looked like a fox or feline, and that the current model resembles a wolf better needs to be smacked with a National Geographic magazine. Several times.

  13. #13
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilos View Post
    ^--^
    So i was wondering about getting the Spark of Zandalar instead, as it would push more hits into the CS debuff.
    Armory just in case. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Jonx/advanced
    I got the regTF version of the SoZ last week for testing and found (sitting at 44% haste raid buffed) this:

    1: It fails completely to help with your opener.
    2: At 525 iLevel and an Orc with a sword, I had more base haste ironically with the Valor trink due to reforge
    3: At 44% haste with both SoZ and the Valor trink equipped the second proc of the Valor trink was so close to the Warrior buff that it was almost funny.

    In conclusion; I'd say that unless you have the 535 or 541 (and maybe not even then) versions of the SoZ its just not great unless you're swimming in stats with another trinket (I was running 10% hit as an Arms warrior for weeks). Initial burst, with the rare exception, is a very large part of how we roll. SoZ will make you cringe as it slowly stacks up....and stacks........and stacks......

    I recently begged a like minded Paladin to try the valor trinket over the 528 SoZ, his numbers improved as well. The Warrior buff, while about 6% higher uptime is 1000 less strength and it doesn't proc on pull. Even on Jin'Rokh its not any better.

  14. #14
    alright then, thank you for the responces. i guess i'll try to stay away from it for now, until the pallies and dks don't need it in my guild anymore to make my own tests, but for now i'll turn the page on that idea.

  15. #15
    Thanks for the reply. (44% haste is wicked )
    Ill stick to this for now then. Thou, it looks like the Gaze stack often when dealing with alot of adds, not bad.
    For single target bosses, maybe the Valor one will be good instead then, as the uptime is quite high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seyna Starstrider View Post
    And anyone who says the alpha model looked like a fox or feline, and that the current model resembles a wolf better needs to be smacked with a National Geographic magazine. Several times.

  16. #16
    I think my english isnt that great. You totally misunderstood my point i ques.

    Basicly what i was saying is that all stats are needed.

    And how you balance it is based on the total stats you have.

    And yes i understand that haste is important for RealPPM

    O yea i am NOT saying that stats are = either.
    Last edited by Aremas; 2013-05-16 at 08:08 PM.

  17. #17
    @ aremas, we should be moving away from mastery in favor of more haste and crit, being that both are significatly better than mastery, however we can't totally get away from it because there are 2-3 peices in our BiS gear that still have mastery on it. and after that it shouldn't be given any more thought because we have quite a high base mastery, and more likely than not, get the 3k mastery buff from raid.

  18. #18
    Yea but i am not focust on fully bis i am not a hardcore raider.
    And its unlikely a lot of people get bis gear annyway.

    You have to do whith the gear you have.

    What i want to ask you if you dont have a lot haste can it still overtake mastery?
    I personely think that you need a X amount of haste before it tops mastery.

    BTW @ Vilos i think you need to replace one of the crit gems in your shoulders whit a orange crit/strength gem you missing out on 120 crit bonus stats.

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire unrealeck's Avatar
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    Gaze of the Twins is awesome once you start getting nice gear. Higher crit chance means you get more procs from it. You can often maintain a stack of 3 for a while using your cooldowns too.

  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrealeck View Post
    Gaze of the Twins is awesome once you start getting nice gear. Higher crit chance means you get more procs from it. You can often maintain a stack of 3 for a while using your cooldowns too.
    Facepalm. Again, this is not how you theorycraft.

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