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  1. #21
    The problem is, are they really interested in keeping PvE gear out of PvP? To me it feels more like they're slowly trying to demote PvP since the start of Pandaria and especially in 5.2/5.3. It feels like they're trying to make it something PvE players can do in between raids without having to exchange their gear and in general bring it down to the level of Pet Battles.

  2. #22
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    The way to fix PvE trinkets and set bonuses in PvP is this:


    Disable
    PvE trinket procs, and PvE set bonuses in Rated Battlegrounds and Arenas.

    They still provide the static stats (ie. +1300 intellect or agility or w/e) - but they don't proc. If you only have the pve trinket, you can still wear it in pvp and it's not useless - but the pvp ones will always be better if procs / set bonuses are disabled. In non-rated pvp, bonuses are fun and funny and since it's not really competitive, it doesn't really matter - but when we're trying to play a balanced and competitive pvp experience - so long as weird bonuses exist at all - there will continue to be some bonus for some class that works too well.

    PvP would look a lot more balanced right now if we weren't exacerbating high burst with pve trinkets that significantly amplify that burst. Much of the problems of the past with legendaries in PvP would be similarly ineffective - rogue wings wouldn't proc and agi stacks wouldn't build, tarecgosa wouldn't proc, thunderfury wouldn't proc, shadowmourne wouldn't proc soul harvest. The only legendary that didn't have an OP proc was the hunter bow - and the legendary hunter bow wasn't even the best PvP bow when it was live, all the top hunters were running a PvE bow out of black temple that had a massive mana drain on every shot: so that wouldn't have worked either.

    PvE procs shouldn't be in competitive PvP.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldarian View Post
    why i like killing pvp geared ppl with my PVE geared blood DK

    Haters gonna hate

    2400 hk's and nothing but raid finder gear, so no.
    Even as blood you probably still get face rolled by others with an IQ over 80

  4. #24
    Perhaps making Pve tier set bonuses not work in Rated PvP would be best.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jahasafrat View Post
    Agreed! PvP gear is the worst thing that has ever happened to PvP. The most fun I ever had with WoW's PvP was before the advent of resilience.
    Resilience is a necessary evil unless Blizzard starts scaling boss health/damage/abilities according to PvP values. I would love for this to happen but it won't, ever.

    I'd say the best fix to this would be to make 3 tiers of PvP gear just like there is for PvE gear. Honor gear should be equivalent to LFR. Elite gear could be equivalent to normal mode raiding. And elite gear with rating requirement could be equal to heroic raid gear. Or everything could be slightly lower than it's equivalent but PvP power could ensure it more than makes up.
    This would ensure PvE gear will not dominate PvP gear in world PvP and the easier transitions between the two would remain.
    ilvl suppression would ensure everything is equal across the board in instanced pvp.
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  6. #26
    Bloodsail Admiral Luminoth4's Avatar
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    @ Flaks - There already are three tiers of PVP Gear, Crafted, Honor and Conquest. Elite is becoming just Conquest but prettier. So Crafted is meant to be entry, Honor is BG Standard and Conquest is Arena and Rated BG. But seen as though Blizzard made Crafted hard to get, and Crafted Dreadful is annoying it doesn't really get used because not many people can make it or even bother getting the Recipes. People complain there is no entry set but there is one, it's just people ignore it, and its missing a weapon, trinkets and rings/necks. My opinion anyways, most of the people I've seen complaining about getting PVP Gear seem to forget Crafted exists.
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  7. #27
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Crafted gear at least on my server is a massive pain to make unless you find someone sitting on a ton of mats - it's often faster to just honor farm in greens than to go out and farm up the mats to make my alts crafted before I honor farm - and a lot more fun running BGs even in frustratingly bad greens than skinning mobs to craft my rdruid's recent 450 set.
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  8. #28
    The gap probably only small now in WPVP, but what happen when we hit 5.4 ?
    Item level probably arround 548 to 560 with Primary Stats ( Agi, Int, Str ) so huge for WPVP to handle.

    This problem won't be fix unless PVE also have unique stats.
    Something like PVE Power (increase damage to npc) and PVE Resilience (decrease damage from npc).

    For Example
    ITem Level 476
    PVE : Item Level 476 Stats ( Raid Finder MSV )
    PVP : Item Level 476 Stats + PVP Power ( Honor Gear )

    Item Level 496
    PVE : Item Level 496 Stats ( HOF and TES )
    PVP : Item LEvel 496 Stats + PVP Power ( Conquest Gear )

    Item Level 509
    PVE : Item Level 509 Stats

    Item Level 522
    PVE : Item Level 509 Stats + PVE Power ( for PRimary Stats loss ) + PVE Res ( for Stamina loss )

    Any Item Level higher then 509 will have their Primary Stats scale to 509, with PVE Power/PVE Res. ( 509 is only example )


    It will fix some problem
    1. The Stats Gap for WPVP will not be huge, even when 5.4 come.
    2. For PVE, it will be easier to balance class. Every Stats have different weight for dps/healer, balance can only be look at highest Item Level.
    3. PVE Res can control Tank spec Avoidance at acceptable level, for PVP or PVE. No more Chill of the throne like .. etc

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalysun View Post
    And trinkets. Honestly the PvE trinkets they consistently keep nerfing in PvP simply need to be disallowed in PvP. It's not the PvE'rs that are benefiting from it in PvP, it's the PvP'rs that KNOW how broken it is. When I can die from 70%-0 in literally 1 second to a rogue (80k evis, marked for death 160k evis crit), it's a little ridiculous. Human Thug Cleaves running the on use with that trinket can usually kill on the opener (or at least score most of the enemy team's cooldowns) simply if it procs.

    While I think some of us can agree that double DPS trinkets is one of the sole reasons for this it's also no surprise to anyone playing arena lately to run into comps using these trinkets to put out some insane damage.

    TL;DR: Last seasons of Wrath and Cata were running rampant with PvE weapons and trinkets (if you were an ArP class without DBW you were doing it wrong), I'd rather that didn't follow into MoP; though steps are being taken I don't know that it's enough.
    It's still out of control even after the VP trinket nerf. Double Healer DK says hi.

  10. #30
    Stood in the Fire Kals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    It's still out of control even after the VP trinket nerf. Double Healer DK says hi.
    Didn't say it wasn't, hence why they need to be removed period. I like Yvaelle's solution where the static stat stays but can't benefit from the buff. That way PvE'rs that feel like PvPing don't feel like their trinket is completely useless, just much less useful than one gained in pvp.

  11. #31
    Just do what GW2 did. Separate PvP and PvE gear. In Battlegrounds and Arenas, you can only use PvP gear. Just make tabs on our Character Info that say "PvP" and "PvE". When you enter a BG or Arena, your gear gets swapped to PvP. When you step out of them, you get swapped to PvE.

    What about people without PvP gear you ask? Well, we would all start with a set of green PvP gear! That way, crafted PvP gear (because it's blue or better) will still be viable and better than what we start with. AND you'd still be able to transmog your stuff, so you can look like whatever you want too.

    There we go. Fixed PvE gear in PvP.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Synthaxx View Post
    Gear turns the battle too much, and makes skill less relevant. I'm not saying an unskilled player with great gear will always win against a low geared but skilled player, but right now, it favours those who've gotten the gear rather than those who've got skill. I'm also not saying that gear should be irrelevant, but you're more likely to succeed in PVE due to the grouping systems in place even with low gear, than you are in PVP with low gear.

    Changing it so everyone has an equal amount of resilience goes some way to fixing this problem without making PVP gear worthless. It also makes pre-max level PVP more balanced, though I dare say without toning down the damage at low levels it won't ever be fixed (but then that risks breaking PVE).
    It annoys me when I see people say this .. because... how do you know the person that just beat you is less skilled? The only way to show that MIGHT be your rating versus his rating. I mean, do you just "have a feeling" you are better than him and blame the difference in gear levels as the reason you lost?

    It reminds me of the CoD cliche meme, where only .5% of people blame their own lack of skill for dying, the other 99.5% is lag, cheating, hacking etctetcetc

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 12:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Crafted gear at least on my server is a massive pain to make unless you find someone sitting on a ton of mats - it's often faster to just honor farm in greens than to go out and farm up the mats to make my alts crafted before I honor farm - and a lot more fun running BGs even in frustratingly bad greens than skinning mobs to craft my rdruid's recent 450 set.
    I'm not so sure about the leather sets, but the plate sets are what, 10 GI bars per piece?
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    I would like to use pvp gear in pve and vice verca. When the rules are set aside and everyone has access to the same items I have no sympathy for casuals who find pve or pvp boring or hard. I would add more but then I would probably be stereotyping.
    People already do. What's stopping you?

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  14. #34
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    It's still out of control even after the VP trinket nerf. Double Healer DK says hi.
    I fought that three times this morning, we actually beat them 2/3 games

    The trick was always their over-confidence though, they'd have us playing defensive forever - and then one of their healers would sneak off to pre-emptively drink (usually both would be at like 60% from DPS off the bat, but they -smartly- didn't both want to suddenly become worried about mana at the same time) - that was our window both wins. CC the healer, blow up the DK in a smoke bomb - if you can make it through their burst cycle, which they usually threw everything into (including defensive things like AMS/ghoul stun to prevent our CCs) - we actually had a window. So long as both healers are in LoS of the DK though its pretty much impossible to score a kill - we got pretty good at matching up CC on both healers at the same time, but if even one of them can break their CC they dispel the other and you can't get a kill after that.
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  15. #35
    The Lightbringer NatePsychotic's Avatar
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    Well if we're trying to keep PvE gear out of PvP then lets keep PvP gear out of PvE shall we?

  16. #36
    Blademaster Leyn's Avatar
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    Too lazy to read the whole thread;
    I understood that Blizz DOESN'T want to keep PvE gear out of PvP? Hence the 65% resi change.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus_77 View Post
    The gap probably only small now in WPVP, but what happen when we hit 5.4 ?
    Item level probably arround 548 to 560 with Primary Stats ( Agi, Int, Str ) so huge for WPVP to handle.

    This problem won't be fix unless PVE also have unique stats.
    Something like PVE Power (increase damage to npc) and PVE Resilience (decrease damage from npc).

    For Example
    ITem Level 476
    PVE : Item Level 476 Stats ( Raid Finder MSV )
    PVP : Item Level 476 Stats + PVP Power ( Honor Gear )

    Item Level 496
    PVE : Item Level 496 Stats ( HOF and TES )
    PVP : Item LEvel 496 Stats + PVP Power ( Conquest Gear )

    Item Level 509
    PVE : Item Level 509 Stats

    Item Level 522
    PVE : Item Level 509 Stats + PVE Power ( for PRimary Stats loss ) + PVE Res ( for Stamina loss )

    Any Item Level higher then 509 will have their Primary Stats scale to 509, with PVE Power/PVE Res. ( 509 is only example )


    It will fix some problem
    1. The Stats Gap for WPVP will not be huge, even when 5.4 come.
    2. For PVE, it will be easier to balance class. Every Stats have different weight for dps/healer, balance can only be look at highest Item Level.
    3. PVE Res can control Tank spec Avoidance at acceptable level, for PVP or PVE. No more Chill of the throne like .. etc
    Good idea! But still a bit too complicated. I´d really like to see one gear for all. With Resilience they have the tool to adjust incoming dmg in PvP. So make all gear completely valid in PvP and raise base Resilience to 80% or whatever is necessary for enjoyable PvP in the current tier.

    We have to carry one set for PvP and one for PvE nowadays. This looks like an outdated concept to me.

    What would be next if they really continue their path of making PvE gear valid for PvE? Making PvP gear valid for PvE as well? Will we get additional hit/expertise for free on our PvP gear in PvE environments then?

  18. #38
    I like the variant of someone elses idea posted early in the thread, a gear vendor for gold. But not epics, or even blues - green gear! same as you get at the vendors in each zone in MoP. The crafted gear would still be better, but the suggested green gear would be something to start with. I'd say the green gear would be better than PvE Blues, while the crafted gear beats heroic gear and then the honor gear stats competing with raid gear and onwards.

    I'm leveling a pure pvp toon at the moment, so I'll power through it as I know its coming, but the last couple of expansions I've decided on a whim to 'give pvp a go' on one of my pve toons, and I step into a random WSG and my priest gets blown up in mere seconds because I've got no gear. the gearing process needs to be friendlier (which is partially the reason for the 65% base resi I guess.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by jahasafrat View Post
    Agreed! PvP gear is the worst thing that has ever happened to PvP. The most fun I ever had with WoW's PvP was before the advent of resilience.
    And where is the Versus in pvp if someone is dead in 2 seconds with no ability to react.
    PvP only exists due to resilience.
    PvE gearing with the aim of being one of 10/25/40+ players contributing to some big kill is not going to scale well when it comes down to smaller scale fights potentially down to 1v1.
    Resilience was a necessary mechanism.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Peng View Post
    Good idea! But still a bit too complicated. I´d really like to see one gear for all. With Resilience they have the tool to adjust incoming dmg in PvP. So make all gear completely valid in PvP and raise base Resilience to 80% or whatever is necessary for enjoyable PvP in the current tier.

    We have to carry one set for PvP and one for PvE nowadays. This looks like an outdated concept to me.

    What would be next if they really continue their path of making PvE gear valid for PvE? Making PvP gear valid for PvE as well? Will we get additional hit/expertise for free on our PvP gear in PvE environments then?
    Making One for All Gear ( PVP and PVE ) are probably never gonna happen.
    - Some people like PVE and never touch PVP
    - Some people like PVP and never touch PVE
    - Some people like doing both.

    PVP Gear and PVE Gear have different ways to obtained.
    Making Gear that viable to both will
    1. QQ PVP Player, that they have to Raid to gear up faster to do PVP
    2. QQ PVE Player, that they have to Arena/BG to gear up faster to Raid
    3. Making it hard to balance, since Item Inflation Stats on PVE Gear are huge that make a new fresh 90 VS Normal Tier PVE will cry out loud.

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