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  1. #161
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babo7000 View Post
    But he HAS to appear in MoP. Doesn't matter if you love him or hate him, anything that deals with the Horde, and especially Garrosh, is going to have Thrall in it. If he didn't appear just because people are tired of him, the dethroning of Garrosh and redemption of the Orcs (again), would make zero sense.
    Ultimately, the game we play relies on our understanding and interest in the characters that populate it in order to continue being fresh.

    tBC was about the Rebels of Warcraft 3, who took a ruined world and shaped it in their images.

    WotLK was about the choices that Arthas made in Warcraft 3, and the ultimate un-doing of someone who was so absorbed with The Greater Good that he was tricked into doing the polar opposite.

    Cataclysm was about the role of neutrality in a world where tensions from the three wars had begun to rise up again, and how that neutrality was the only way to conquer the forces that had risen up to destroy the world. Thrall was born into a society that hated his race, but he grew up understanding that the two races could and should be able to live together. In other words, Thrall perfectly represented the neutrality element that the story embraced.

    Although it is still too early to say for sure, I believe that MoP is about overcoming the mistakes of the past and taking account of your actions. Varian, Thrall, Vol'jin, Jaina, Lor'themar and even the Council of Three Hammers have all gone a long way in this regard.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  2. #162
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    I donno if his family has to die for him to stop being annoying. I think after Siege of Orgrimmar he just...need to go away for a while. That is what I thought was happening at the end of Cataclysm, but nope.

    He most certainly has a place in the Siege of Orgrimmar raid. Of course he does. But I think it would be a mistake to make him some integral part of the fighting. He probably will become the Orc's leader after the raid, that's fine. There aren't many other Orcs who could do so. I think only Saurfang would fit that role otherwise.

    I suppose what is going to immensely annoy me is the inevitable Alliance kowtowing to the Horde after the raid and just immediately leaving after Garrosh is dead/deposed/ect. Unless there's some ridiculously drastic character development for a TON of Alliance characters in 5.4, there will most certainly be people in the Alliance (Sky Admiral Rogers, Tyrande, possibly Jaina) who don't think they should just pick up and leave. But I am almost certain that is what is going to happen, especially after the answers in the Q&A where they totally admit not wanting to change the old world to make Alliance victories apparent (Even though 5.3 introduces technology to do that very thing...*coughs*)
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-05-02 at 01:59 PM.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    They went overboard when it really wasn't needed, and I could make many suggestions on how they could fix it, like if they had to have Thrall be as strong as he was, have him just as horde and have malfurion as the standing of worlds greatest druid on the alliance side, so both forces follow either.
    But that would be developing the Alliance hero that was teased as being powerful and extremely important for 5+ years instead of him coming back with no fanfare and a couple quests. We can't do that!

    Seriously, Blizzard's focus on the Horde has just blinded them to what seems like obvious choices. Look at Thrall. Look at Malfurion. They are two sides of the same coin.

    Both are in tune with elements/nature, respectively.
    Both prefer cooperation and to seek peace over conflict.
    Both are willing to put the needs of the many of the needs of the few, or their own desires.
    One is deemed the most powerful shaman on Azeroth, the other is the most powerful druid.
    One now leads the Earthen Ring, the other leads Cenarion Circle.

    How did Blizzard NOT use BOTH of them as counter weights on the scale for the story? As mentioned above, why was the healing of Nordrassil forgotten; Thrall & Malfurion were both taking part in that. Malfurion nearly wiped a battlefield away with a storm (um, including their own forces, hehe). That wouldn't have been helpful?

    My biggest gripe with the Cataclysm storyline was actually in Thrall's novel when he single handedly resolves a problem for every Dragon Aspect and they all become indebted to him on a personal level. Just stupid, that was.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  4. #164
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post

    My biggest gripe with the Cataclysm storyline was actually in Thrall's novel when he single handedly resolves a problem for every Dragon Aspect and they all become indebted to him on a personal level. Just stupid, that was.
    Actually, that part of the story did make a lot of sense. Thrall reminded the aspects of who they were, because he was mortal and they were not, he was able to bring them down to earth again at a time when everything for the aspects were splitting apart, Alexstrazsa's grief, nozdormu and not being able to remain in one point of time, he was able to make him realize the thing that matters is right now, and it brought the aspect back from where he was lost.

    Its often the small details that great being miss, you hear stories about this in so much literature of mortals changing the way gods think, it wasn't bizarre given warcraft is a story of mortals and god like beings living together on one planet.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by babo7000 View Post
    He appeared out of nowhere and became the strongest Shaman (Muln? Nobundo?), was the subject of a prophecy, and had immortal Titanic creations flocking to him for help. Now, had this all been explained it would have been forgiveable, but it literally went from Thrall being a quest giver in 4.0, to him being the focal point of the story in his next appearance.

    I have to disagree somewhat with this statement. Pre-shattering events and The Shattering novel tell us everything about his shift into 100% shaman, his power, his mission, etc. etc.

    *That is the only thing that this is a response to.*

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    That is a point, I want to know what the doomhammer and even doomhammers armor will play in this. It was meant to be a symbol of orcish leadership, but Garrosh never took it, favouring mannaroths tusks as a token of Groms killing of him. Will they use the armor here, maybe even seeing Thrall deck out in it against as a symbol?
    Don't hate me for this, but what if Doomhammer Armour was SHATTERED by Garrosh. Hear me out.

    Garry spots Thrall and "arrests" him after learning of the darkspear island and that Thrall had a part to play. Publicically he insults Thrall calling him a coward and that he is weak etc etc. He then says Death is too good for Thrall and instead he will be put in chains like a dog so he can witness the hordes triumph. Then Garry places the doomhammer armour on the ground and SMASHES it to pieces. Probably laughing and saying this armour is as weak as the former warchief. Saurfang then tries to intervene and gets cutdown by malkorok who strikes him from behind with a poisoned blade.

    This sets us up for the SoO raid. A hero of the horde slain by a filthy blackrock scumbag and the former warchief in chains and the famous warchief doomhammers own armour smashed. We could then set up for a scenario or something to re-forge the Armour so we can help get our warchief back.

    Also Thrall is the only choice for warchief, he was never a pacifist. When it comes to fighting he is more than ready to kill. He only does it if its the only way to resolve the matter. If his people are threatened then he will do anything he can to ensure their safety.

  7. #167
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    I have to disagree somewhat with this statement. Pre-shattering events and The Shattering novel tell us everything about his shift into 100% shaman, his power, his mission, etc. etc.

    *That is the only thing that this is a response to.*
    Yeah he was always a powerful Shaman, even going back to the whole "proving himself" back when he first found the Frostwolves in Alteract.

  8. #168
    Well in the Shattering Thrall was merely a strong shaman who stepped down from Warchief to help Azeroth. There was no explaination for him becoming THE Shaman, which took place from Twilight of the Aspects/4.2.

  9. #169
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    I think it was supposed to have happened during The Shattering book after he was training with Aggra. And then the whole acting as the Earthwarder during the ceremony in TotA. As well as the whole 4.2 chain. He was quite significantly powered up during the Cataclysm storyline, being powerful from the start too.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Actually, that part of the story did make a lot of sense. Thrall reminded the aspects of who they were, because he was mortal and they were not, he was able to bring them down to earth again at a time when everything for the aspects were splitting apart, Alexstrazsa's grief, nozdormu and not being able to remain in one point of time, he was able to make him realize the thing that matters is right now, and it brought the aspect back from where he was lost.

    Its often the small details that great being miss, you hear stories about this in so much literature of mortals changing the way gods think, it wasn't bizarre given warcraft is a story of mortals and god like beings living together on one planet.
    It made sense that Thrall, in a short span of time, showed the Blue Dragonflights who should be their new Aspect, showed Alexstrasza how to get past her grief, found Nozdormu lost in the sands of time, and assisted Ysera because she predicted he was the only one who could help? (Again, wtf is Malfurion if not one of Ysera's main guns).

    No, it didn't make any damn sense at all, Trassk. It was shoehorning Thrall into the role with the sole purpose of making him more grandiose and important.

    I'm alright with him finding Nozdormu. I actually liked that part quite a bit. The part with Alexstrasza....was okay, but seemed really hammy when I was reading it. I mean, we're talking about Alexstrasza here. It was just all really conveniently written that Thrall had everything fall in his lap to right every wrong for them. "Oh Alexstrasza, trust me, I saw what REALLY happened with Korialstrasza because I did." "Oh, okay, I'm not sad anymore." I know that's simplifying it a LOT, but still.

    And having Thrall involved with the Blue Dragonflight story could have been done without entirely. I felt that was just finding an excuse to stuff Thrall into every plot they could to bring the Dragonflights together.

    And therein lies my issue. They put Thrall in the center of it all so all plots revolved around him, everything lived or died by Thrall and Thrall alone.

    Had the Blue Flight resolved their issue and come to others of their own accord, with Thrall having found Nozdormu and brought back Alexstrasza, it would have been like multiple pieces coming together and Thrall being involved, even instrumental, instead of "all plots lead to Thrall."

    And for the record, it's not "I don't like Thrall." I don't fell like ANY character should be the center of all focus.

    Think of LotR. There was a lot going on. Sauron wasn't defeated because of Frodo, nor Sam, nor Aragorn, nor Gandalf, nor anyone. It was multiple pieces all moving, all coming together, and all doing different parts that led to the conclusion. And even then, despite all the best planning, it was basically Gollum who saved the day inadvertently. There's still "if not for ____, it wouldn't have happened" there, but it isn't all specifically focused on one character.

    I felt that's what happened with Thrall, more than was needed.

    And again, wtf about Malfurion, Blizzard? Would have been interesting to see how things would have been had Cataclysm been more about Thrall and Malfurion allying amidst the Alliance/Horde conflict.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-05-02 at 02:26 PM.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  11. #171
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Yeah, it was definitely weird when Ysera went to Thrall instead of Malfurion. Alexstrasza and Kalecgos, they...I donno. I think you nailed the issue. It was believable but incredibly hammy, and it felt like she was written that way JUST for Thrall to be able to help her in the end and Kalecgos needed his help JUST so it could have been Thrall who helped.

    Ysera did make the least amount of sense. Super mega Goku Druid sitting in Darnassus? Nope, better go to the Shaman.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-05-02 at 02:24 PM.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    It made sense that Thrall, in a short span of time, showed the Blue Dragonflights who should be their new Aspect, showed Alexstrasza how to get past her grief, found Nozdormu lost in the sands of time, and assisted Ysera because she predicted he was the only one who could help? (Again, wtf is Malfurion if not one of Ysera's main guns).

    No, it didn't make any damn sense at all, Trassk. It was shoehorning Thrall into the role with the sole purpose of making him more grandiose and important.

    I'm alright with him finding Nozdormu. I actually liked that part quite a bit. The part with Alexstrasza....was okay, but seemed really hammy when I was reading it. I mean, we're talking about Alexstrasza here. It was just all really conveniently written that Thrall had everything fall in his lap to right every wrong for them. "Oh Alexstrasza, trust me, I saw what REALLY happened with Korialstrasza because I did." "Oh, okay, I'm not sad anymore." I know that's simplifying it a LOT, but still.

    And having Thrall involved with the Blue Dragonflight story could have been done without entirely. I felt that was just finding an excuse to stuff Thrall into every plot they could to bring the Dragonflights together.

    And therein lies my issue. They put Thrall in the center of it all so all plots revolved around him, everything lived or died by Thrall and Thrall alone.

    Had the Blue Flight resolved their issue and come to others of their own accord, with Thrall having found Nozdormu and brought back Alexstrasza, it would have been like multiple pieces coming together and Thrall being involved, even instrumental, instead of "all plots lead to Thrall."
    Thrall using the dragon soul is fine, having him help a few of the aspects is fine. I would have preferred that we had some other characters help with say the blue dragonflight say Jaina? Since she got into a romance with him in a book out of fucking no where. Why not have something in game that showed her helping him accept his new role and have a hand in him getting selected? Since shes one of the most powerful mages it would have made sense.

    Malfurion could have dealt with Ysera as hes more in tune with her than anyone else would be. Aggra could have dealt with Alexs. Easy!

  13. #173
    Immortal KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Or what about the Six for Kalecgos? What better way to recognize that Malygos was flatout wrong than have the help of the Kirin Tor?

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Thrall using the dragon soul is fine, having him help a few of the aspects is fine. I would have preferred that we had some other characters help with say the blue dragonflight say Jaina?
    Yeah, the basis for the plot with Thrall and the Dragon Soul was totally fine by me. I just felt they attached too many plot threads to him that he didn't need nor that needed him.

    It's almost like someone should have stepped back and said "Guys, I don't think Thrall needs to do all this. The guy's pretty damn cool as he is."
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Yeah, the basis for the plot with Thrall and the Dragon Soul was totally fine by me. I just felt they attached too many plot threads to him that he didn't need nor that needed him.

    It's almost like someone should have stepped back and said "Guys, I don't think Thrall needs to do all this. The guy's pretty damn cool as he is."
    I agree, if we had say jaina for the aspect of magic (also helps tie in their new found romance that sprung up etc and since shes a mage it might make sense to help with the new aspect of magic?)

    Malfurion should have played more of a role in the hour of twighlight. YES we know firelands just got stomped on and work needed to be done but he could have left that cenarius etc and gone with Thrall and some others to finish the fight and help the aspects. oh well.

    Besides im kind of hoping the Doom hammer armour gets smashed up (my earlier post on page 9) and thrall arrested and thrown in jail with saurfang killed in front of him when trying to put a stop to garrosh (with malkorok or w/e hes called stabbing saurfang from behind).

    Would make for an interesting development. We could then work on busting thrall out of jail and him coming back into the horde rebels with some orc followers who want to rid the horde of Garrosh.

  16. #176
    That's basically the problem with Thrall in Cata. Not that he became a super powerful shaman, not that he worked alongside the dragon aspects, but that the devs put him into things that he didn't need to be in.

    1. Things revolving around Thrall TOO much in TotA. As posted above, having him help one or two would have been fine, but did he really need to be the personal savior of all of them?

    2. A minor one, but the 4.2 trailer. WHY showcase Thrall who is only part of a side story that patch instead of Malfurion and the Avengers of Hyjal? It'd be like if 3.1 trailer focused on Tirion getting a vision from Yogg Saron in the argent tournament grounds that were being introduced as under construction that patch, instead of the parties involved. (Brann and the Kirin Tor.) This is symbolic of Thrall and Malfurions roles in the expansion in a way. They told Alliance players Malfurion would be just as important as Thrall. But that wasn't really the case. All the major stuff he does tends to have Hamuul with him, while Thrall has no Alliance counterpart, and if anythign Hamuul actually gets more character development than Malfurion does. Doesn't help that in 4.2, only heroic raiders who get to the last phase of Ragnaros get to see his big moment. The whole 'heroic only phase' thing was BS to begin with imo. If you want to give a heroic only boss to a raid that's a sort of side boss like SInestra/Algalon/Raden go ahead, but don't deprive normal mode raiders of a kill for the main storyline baddie for the patch...

    3. Thrall being the one to resolve two formerly alliance villains who go after Thrall becaues of a prophecy that exists for the sole purpose of making those said villains target Thrall. Why does Staghelm not do anything related to Malfurion or the Avengers of Hyjal? He just splits Thrall into 4 elemental spirits because it'd be too easy to for a bad guy to just kill him, instead of his hated enemy Malfurion, before peaceing out to the Firelands to not be seen again until raiders kill him.

    4. Bennedictus. This guy was the spiritual leader of Stormwind. Leader of the Church of the Holy Light. He got some interesting foreshadowing in Varian's short story. But ultimately, Varian, Anduin, and other Alliance characters never get a chance to confront him for this betrayal. The datamind conversation between him and Varian from beta would have been 1000% more meaningful than his little arguement with Thrall at the end of Hour of Twilight. Thrall never met the guy, isn't even in the same faction that would be affected by this major lore character and spiritual leader going evil.

    So that's two former alliance heroes gone villain that go after Thrall because....they needed to throw somebody at Thrall! To put this in perspective, how would Horde players feel if in 5.4 the only lore character to confront Malkorok was Anduin? Or if the patch Magatha is finally killed in, she only interacted with Velen because Velen's important in that expansion?

    So in the end, I don't think the problem with Thrall is his role as a substitute earth warder. He never became an aspect or the earthwarder, but a shaman channeling earth based powers for use in the dragon soul for example I'm fine with. I don't think people mind him becoming a more powerful shaman. But they went overboard. Having Thrall help the aspects and form a bond with them so they're working together in 4.3? Fine and dandy. But I think the above posters have a point that having him the personal savior and champion of all of them in such a short amount of time is silly. They took former alliance heroes and threw them at Thrall as villains because why not. Oddly enough, Tirion probably got more screen time in Wrath than Thrall did in Cata, and yet he wasn't shoehorned into plots he didn't belong in.

    In short I think it's not the concept of what they did with Thrall, but the execution of it that's ultimately the issue people have.

    As for MoP though, I don't mind Thrall's appearances here. He's in like 1 quest in 5.1. Helps fight with the Darkspear Rebellion, but doesn't steal the show. Vol'jins still in charge of the revolution. Thrall is doing something that make sense as well. I know people are sick of Thrall after Cata, but you can't do this storyline without the guy involved to some extent. And unless he ends up stealing the show in 5.4, which I doubt given the kind of role they're giving him, I think they're handling his MoP story much better than his Cata story so far.

  17. #177
    Herald of the Titans MrHappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Im not gonna lie, one thrall-centered chain quest per century is more than enough. Let other characters shine for once.
    like who? King Varian? the lolprince of stormwind? How bout just let characters that are iconic and cool have shine and not dull have their 15min of fame.
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  18. #178
    I will note that once Thrall has children he is completely killable.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I will note that once Thrall has children he is completely killable.
    He already has a son, which is why i think he could die in this patch. Blizzard loves to have history repeat itself and a fatherless young orc with a legacy to live up to would be right up their alley and his whole "look after aggra and my boy" line to vol'jin in 5.3 makes me wonder if thats going to happen.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Helps fight with the Darkspear Rebellion, but doesn't steal the show. Vol'jins still in charge of the revolution. Thrall is doing something that make sense as well. I know people are sick of Thrall after Cata, but you can't do this storyline without the guy involved to some extent.
    I'm just jealous the Horde got to fight with Chen again
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

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