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  1. #81
    The Lightbringer Sky High's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    If Garrosh couldn't take the heat he shouldn't have started the war at all. Whatever pact there was was shattered the moment Garrosh invaded Ashenvale and started the war with the Alliance. Theramore was a legitimate target.....but legitimate because it was in a war Garrosh started. There was no neutrality for it to break. No agreements for it to ignore. Because Garrosh had already broken them.

    Or do you think that Garrosh starting a war with one member of the Alliance means the others should refuse to help? That they should sit the war out?
    the crater that was once Theramore kind of answers that "if he can't handle the heat" question don't you think? it's not like this war has been a disaster for him so far. and I'll agree Garrosh shits on every previous agreement or relationship between the horde and allies the minute he walks in. And as Iv'e said before any who get involved have to deal with what might be coming their way. goes both ways of course, as it is going to be catching up to Garrosh in the future.

  2. #82
    Garrosh: I've been waiting for you, Thrall. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When you left, I was but a warrior, now I am the Warchief!
    Thrall: Only a Warchief of evil, Garrosh!
    Garrosh: Pah, your peaceful shamanistic powers are WEAK, old fool!
    Thrall: You can't win, Garrosh. If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.


    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Was the Alliance reason for being in Southern Barrens ever spelled out? I don't recall hearing of them starving out night elves, and there's a horde npc that states the Alliance attacked from Northwatch before the cataclysm if I'm not mistaken.
    Yes there is. And the Alliance reason is given in dialogue explaining why the road is being built. As for the NPC you mention....either they are right, or the Alliance version is right....and the books don't contradict the Alliance version.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    the crater that was once Theramore kind of answers that "if he can't handle the heat" question don't you think?
    I was actually thinking of the players who use the excuse of Theramore breaking neutrality to justify Garroshes assault. Garrosh didn't need any justification...there was a war.

    And Theramore didn't break neutrality. Garrosh started a war with the Alliance and Theramore is Alliance.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-04-28 at 05:06 AM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Was the Alliance reason for being in Southern Barrens ever spelled out? I don't recall hearing of them starving out night elves, and there's a horde npc that states the Alliance attacked from Northwatch before the cataclysm if I'm not mistaken.
    it was just to draw away Horde armies away from Ashenvele
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I was actually thinking of the players who use the excuse of Theramore breaking neutrality to justify Garroshes assault. Garrosh didn't need any justification...there was a war.

    And Theramore didn't break neutrality. Garrosh started a war with the Alliance and Theramore is Alliance.
    which is why I cleverly mentioned Garrosh would have flattened Theramore even if they stayed "neutral", dude doesn't need much of an excuse to kill people.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    I was actually thinking of the players who use the excuse of Theramore breaking neutrality to justify Garroshes assault. Garrosh didn't need any justification...there was a war.
    Like said, the ONLY justufication needed to attack a target is whether it is held by the enemy.

    If a city or whatever is held by the enemy, its the only reason u need to attack it

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-28 at 05:13 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    r. and I'll agree Garrosh shits on every previous agreement .
    to be fair though, it wsnt Garrosh who drafted all the previous agreements with the Alliance, so he kinda has less of an obligation to follow them than Thrall
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    which is why I cleverly mentioned Garrosh would have flattened Theramore even if they stayed "neutral", dude doesn't need much of an excuse to kill people.
    No, he doesn't.

    Theramore was a legitimate target, but trying to absolve Garrosh of responsibility by making a claim Theramore broke some sort of neutrality pact doesn't wash .

    Garrosh mishandled the assault IMO, he threw away the lives of many of his warriors for nothing and he destroyed Theramore in a truly despicable manner. But it was a legitimate target.

    As for Thrall...the main issue about him in ToW is that he probably didn't do enough to help Jaina. Being neutral shouldn't have prevented him from speaking with Garrosh....but that's minor.

    His betrayal' of Jaina was also another factor which drove home to her the words and beliefs of her father. Thrall was being a touch hypocritical here, but - for once - understandably so

    EJL

  8. #88
    I am Murloc! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    please don't tell me I'm glossing over things when you are going off of assumptions on "starving them out" especially when your own link makes it look they didn't "abuse" the disaster but were engaged before. it seems going off your link the allies were pretty quick to react to the horde attacks prior to the cataclysm. so yes, the horde was in Ashenvale but not taking advantage of the cataclysm like the allies did in the barrens, though I will chalk that up to making the best out of a bad/unexpected situation.
    Did...did you not play Cataclysm? All of those conflicts weren't going on before it happened...

    "Starving them out." Does Blizzard really need to explicitly say they were doing this? There were blockades around Kalimdor in Tides of War to do this exact thing. Just because they don't use that phrase does not mean that isn't what was happening.

    The Horde used the Cataclysm to attack and destroy Silverwing Refuge, and then attack Astranaar and almost burn it to the ground.

    The Horde uses the Cataclysm to ally with the Shatterspear Trolls and direct them to attack the Night Elves in Darkshore, which was utterly decimated by the Cataclysm.

    By the way, the link doesn't say they were in the conflict before Cataclysm. It specifically says during Cataclysm. There was always fighting in Ashenvale. That's one of the biggest storylines of that zone, going back to Vanilla. But it was nowhere near what happened after the Cataclysm struck.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-04-28 at 05:23 AM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You are so missing the dam point here its a joke.

    Did you even read the book or skim though it? When Jaina came with the focusing iris, using its power and her own magic to enslave thousends of water elementals, to create a vast tidal wave in order to drown orgrimmar, she was doing some in a fit of psychotic rage and grief and her mind warped by the arcane energy.
    Thrall stopped her, or held her off long as he could, telling her what Garrosh did was hideous, but what jaina intended to do was as bad, if not worse. Despite Garrosh being a monster no better then Arthas, there were innocent people living in orgrimmar, men, women and children, who Jaina was about to slaughter.

    You are actually condoning Jaina killing children. you think what happened to theramore because of what Garrosh did gives her the right to slaughter every single orc in orgrimmar, including innocents.

    You either lack the understanding of the moral integrity in this, or you choose to ignore it purposely.
    Stop pretending as if mortal integrity is something anyone is giving a damn anymore. As far as I am aware, if that ever were the case, we would not have Warcraft to begin with. You should know by now the more morals one has, the more vulnerable that person is.
    Last edited by Dzudzadzo; 2013-04-28 at 05:25 AM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Like said, the ONLY justification needed to attack a target is whether it is held by the enemy.
    Its justified as a target of war. I dislike players trying to absolve Garrosh of responsibility by intimating There more broke some form oif .

    Theramore was an Alliance city in a war between the Horde and Alliance. But it did not make itself a target by breaking neutrality and getting involved in a war it had no business in...it was a target because it was involved in a war Garrosh started.

    EJL

  11. #91
    I doubt Thrall dies, unlike say Rhonin, Thrall is Metzen's pet, not that loser Knaak's pet. Saving him will probably be an objective somewhere, though I still don't see how strength-wise a sha-infused Garrosh can beat Captain Planet, er I mean the world's "strongest" shaman. Unless a sha's corruption is really that strong, akin to Grom being able to kill Cenarius himself with demon blood.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzudzadzo View Post
    Stop pretending as if mortal integrity is something anyone is giving a damn anymore. As far as I am aware, if that ever were the case, we would not have Warcraft to begin with. You should know by now the more morals one has, the more vulnerable that person is.
    it does beg the question, that in a proffesion that revolves on maximizing the death and destruction you can inflict upon people, do morals even have a place?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  13. #93
    A naval blockade would isolate the night elves, but I've never gotten the feeling that they lack for food or supplies inside their own lands. The blockade I think was more to prevent reinforcements from coming to aid the night elves, since his plan was to wipe them out or drive them from kalimdor completely. The night elves weren't having a food/supply problem so far as I know, they just had an invading orc problem, and cutting them off from the Barrens I don't think would affect that, nor do i know of anything that suggests the alliance was sending them food by ship before the blockade.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    A naval blockade would isolate the night elves, but I've never gotten the feeling that they lack for food or supplies inside their own lands. The blockade I think was more to prevent reinforcements from coming to aid the night elves, since his plan was to wipe them out or drive them from kalimdor completely. \
    yeah I was thinkin it was more that too
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Did...did you not play Cataclysm? All of those conflicts weren't going on before it happened...
    there was NO fighting in ashenvale before Cata?
    "Starving them out." Does Blizzard really need to explicitly say they were doing this? There were blockades around Kalimdor in Tides of War to do this exact thing. Just because they don't use that phrase does not mean that isn't what was happening.
    not really going to take your word on it, not that sorry. even if they did it doesn't change anything. a dirty tactic but one enemies use. same deal when you are undertaking a siege. if you can't beat them in combat get them weak or to surrender.
    The Horde used the Cataclysm to attack and destroy Silverwing Refuge, and then attack Astranaar and almost burn it to the ground.
    allies did the same with Camp Trajaro and most of the southern barrens as well.
    The Horde uses the Cataclysm to ally with the Shatterspear Trolls and direct them to attack the Night Elves in Darkshore, which was utterly decimated by the Cataclysm.
    using what they have, to get what they want. same deal with the allies getting the Grimtotem clan to help them in Stonetalon.
    By the way, the link doesn't say they were in the conflict before Cataclysm. It specifically says during Cataclysm. There was always fighting in Ashenvale. That's one of the biggest storylines of that zone, going back to Vanilla. But it was nowhere near what happened after the Cataclysm struck.
    so there was no conflict but now you are saying there was. make up your mind. they were fighting for the whole of WoW I'DE take advantage of an event that put my enemy into a tight spot and exploit it. I have to ask what you are trying to convince me here. that the horde are the bad guys for taking advantage when the allies did the same thing elsewhere? I simply leave it at that both sides are going to do what it takes to win. i don't drag the "moral" bullshit into it since morals have really no place in war, especially when we are talking about Garrosh's horde.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 11:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    No, he doesn't.

    Theramore was a legitimate target, but trying to absolve Garrosh of responsibility by making a claim Theramore broke some sort of neutrality pact doesn't wash .

    Garrosh mishandled the assault IMO, he threw away the lives of many of his warriors for nothing and he destroyed Theramore in a truly despicable manner. But it was a legitimate target.
    fine, I'll retract my previous "attempts" to make Garrosh's attack on Theramore a lil less justified. and again, Garrosh is a dick. yadda yadda this is getting beyond dull droning on about it.
    Last edited by Sky High; 2013-04-28 at 05:49 AM.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    I simply leave it at that both sides are going to do what it takes to win. i don't drag the "moral" bullshit into it since morals have really no place in war, especially when we are talking about Garrosh's horde.
    Like I said before, the whole point of war is to inflict the maximum amout of death and destruction upon your enemies, do morals and what not have a place within that?

    "War does not dteremine who is right only who is left"
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  17. #97
    I am Murloc! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    there was NO fighting in ashenvale before Cata?
    I never said there was no conflict. YOU are saying that is what I said.

    not really going to take your word on it, not that sorry. even if they did it doesn't change anything. a dirty tactic but one enemies use. same deal when you are undertaking a siege. if you can't beat them in combat get them weak or to surrender.
    Spend 10 seconds on WoWpedia and you can find the information out. You're welcome.

    allies did the same with Camp Trajaro and most of the southern barrens as well.
    Yeah, the Alliance does so because Camp Taurajo was equipping Horde warriors. Play both sides and you'll get why that quest line is so awesome (From both angles). By the way, this still is in response to the Night Elves' plight. They're trying to get to them, and they're fighting the Horde along the way. Camp Taurajo was equipping Warriors.

    using what they have, to get what they want. same deal with the allies getting the Grimtotem clan to help them in Stonetalon.
    Except the Alliance didn't start the War. That's the entire point and the main difference that you're just blatantly ignoring.

    so there was no conflict but now you are saying there was. make up your mind. they were fighting for the whole of WoW I'DE take advantage of an event that put my enemy into a tight spot and exploit it. I have to ask what you are trying to convince me here. that the horde are the bad guys for taking advantage when the allies did the same thing elsewhere? I simply leave it at that both sides are going to do what it takes to win.
    Again, I never said there was no conflict. I'm not actually sure how you managed to make your post. Did you start writing it before you finished reading my entire comment? The Alliance didn't do the same thing elsewhere. You're just wrong here, sorry.

    i don't drag the "moral" bullshit into it since morals have really no place in war, especially when we are talking about Garrosh's horde.
    Morals don't have place in War? Wasn't that the whole point of Garrosh's "You are dismissed" scene in Cataclysm that his fans love pointing to? Isn't that the whole point of Jaina being stopped from destroying Orgrimmar with a Tidal Wave? Isn't that the whole point of the goddamn Rebellion and taking down Garrosh?

    "War does not dteremine who is right only who is left"
    These are some nice buzz phrases from apologists that support a faction that is crumbling because of the very amorality of it's leader. I honestly don't know why either of you are claiming morality doesn't have a place in War. It has always been a major component of Warcraft's story. From War 1 through now. You know, the majority of which has been going through war after war.

    Even if you go away from fantasy and to real life, you can connect morality to some part of basically every major war our World has gone through.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-04-28 at 06:11 AM.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    Yeah, the Alliance does so because Camp Taurajo was equipping Horde warriors. Play both sides and you'll get why that quest line is so awesome (From both angles). By the way, this still is in response to the Night Elves' plight. They're trying to get to them, and they're fighting the Horde along the way. Camp Taurajo was equipping Warriors.
    If thats the case then why is it so evil for the Horde to attack Alliance towns and cities?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Like I said before, the whole point of war is to inflict the maximum amout of death and destruction upon your enemies, do morals and what not have a place within that?

    "Does it make much sense to kill people who are killing to show that killing people is wrong?"
    not even that. before Garrosh was out to secure all of Kalimdor for the Horde, which of course was a road paved with the bones of every Night elf and alliance member that either didn't leave or surrender. His intentions were to make sure the Orcs first and foremost had a future in Azeroth. EVERYONE else was either cannon fodder or an enemy to be crushed. so from the get go while his intentions were fucked up in his mind it's easy to see why he went about it. NOW in MoP it's generic madness from drunkenness of power.

  20. #100
    I am Murloc! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    If thats the case then why is it so evil for the Horde to attack Alliance towns and cities?
    Who has said that? If you're talking about Theramore, I've said multiple times now that it was a good military target. Camp T was equipping Horde warriors that were then attacking the Alliance. And the only reason the Alliance is actually pushing through the Southern Barrens, again, is to get to their Allies that are being invaded by Garrosh.

    The group that starts a War versus one that is responding to it, this is an important fact to distinguish.
    The way in which all groups in the War act and what weapons they use, this is an important fact to distinguish.
    The reasons for each group's participation in the War, this is an important fact to distinguish.

    Because it all comes down to the morality of the situation. You can't just say "Well they're both in War, everything goes!" Not only is that not how it works in reality, but in a fantasy narrative, there are very explicit mentions from the creators of the story that the morality between the sides in the War matters.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-04-28 at 06:14 AM.

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