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  1. #21
    Sorry but I disagree with you.
    You can disagree but its nonsensical to do so.

    Gold/Loot are just mechanics to progress your power level. They actually don't even need Currency/Loot in ARPGs either. You could create the same effect with infinite scaling stat points-- the end result would be mechanically indifferent from gold or loot. Grind X to achieve Y.

    That is the essence of an ARPG; the grind.

    What you are grinding is of no consequence when the end result is power progression.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    You can disagree but its nonsensical to do so.

    Gold/Loot are just mechanics to progress your power level. They actually don't even need Currency/Loot in ARPGs either. You could create the same effect with infinite scaling stat points-- the end result would be mechanically indifferent from gold or loot. Grind X to achieve Y.

    That is the essence of an ARPG; the grind.

    What you are grinding is of no consequence when the end result is power progression.
    Name me one other ARPG that you had to grind gold and buy the gear from a auction house to progress ur power.....ill wait.

    The main grind in every other ARPG is grinding mobs and hope for a item to drop.

    In diablo 3 its grinding mobs for gold to buy it out of the Gold Auction House or Spend Cash in the RMAH or work the AH to get what you want.
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2013-04-28 at 02:18 AM.
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  3. #23
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Sorry but I disagree with you.

    Loot has and always will = loot. that is the way TL works that is the way the original Diablo's worked and even in POE its Loot = Loot because there is no gold system.
    I agree mostly with Fencers. Kill stuff, get a reward. That's loot whatever form it takes and the primary reason to play the game other than the sheer tactile joy of killing things (which D3 pretty much got right). As well, you're completely ignoring the small-but-growing number of people who play found only and ignore the auction houses altogether. It's a very satisfying way to play.
    A bit of civility and respect for others opinions goes a long way toward getting any respect in return. Overly hostile, profane and insulting posts are a sign that people don't really have anything to say. Profanity is best served out in very small doses.

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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Sorry but I disagree with you.

    Loot has and always will = loot. that is the way TL works that is the way the original Diablo's worked and even in POE its Loot = Loot because there is no gold system.

    If I have to farm gold to buy gear out of the AH then Diablo 3 has failed in what it means to play a ARPG.

    The whole point in grinding in a ARPG is to hope for that awesome loot drop now it has changed to "God I got to farm a lot of gold to get X item from the AH or God another day of working the AH to buy that awesome item"

    Diablo 3 dose not have the spirit of a ARPG.

    Once more it gets treated like a MMO by blizzard.

    To prove my point look at my barb in my sig all items on him besides the neck came from the AH the neck item is the best I have ever got and that isn't saying much.
    The thing with how you portray your opinion on this matter, is that it asserts that the built-in Diablo III Auction House (Gold or Real Money) is required for play. It is optional, at no point are you actually forced to open the Auction House.

    Contrast this with Diablo II, which many people call back to on this subject: No Blizzard Auction House, but an informal currency amongst players was created (and iterated on). Many people spammed channels for their desired set/unique/runeword items. Additionally, third party sites that were not monitored by Blizzard pop up offering services of Real Money transactions to obtain powerful items. Other third party sites allowed their communities to set up auctions for gold/current currency (SoJ, Perfect Gems, etc).

    The main difference between these two situations is this:
    Blizzard has provided a built in way to engage in the practices people were engaging in during their previous game, with the added benefit of security in the transaction.

    Was Diablo III designed with the idea that people would use the AH? Absolutely, you should never add a feature and NOT take it into account when designing a game.

    I will, however, always agree with people that complain about itemization. Finding things that absolutely useless because of the itemization always feel bad, but is also part of the RNG (though it could be a little more intelligent).
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Yizelin View Post
    The thing with how you portray your opinion on this matter, is that it asserts that the built-in Diablo III Auction House (Gold or Real Money) is required for play. It is optional, at no point are you actually forced to open the Auction House.
    I did read ur whole post but this is the part I want to comment on.

    The AH is forced on the players due to really bad RNG and Itemization therefore you could grind weeks/months/years and finally get that skorn to drop but when it dose its str stat is a int stat.

    Now D2 and other ARPG's had RNG as well but not as bad and D3's.

    It as forced players to work the AH or just spend real cash for gear.

    And all the reasons blizzard made about why D3 is online and Why D3 has the RMAH/GAH has been disproven by the simple fact D3 on the Ps3 will not have the RMAH and can be played offline with 4 friends.
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  6. #26
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    I quit playing once i beat it on hell, havent looked back.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I agree mostly with Fencers. Kill stuff, get a reward. That's loot whatever form it takes and the primary reason to play the game other than the sheer tactile joy of killing things (which D3 pretty much got right). As well, you're completely ignoring the small-but-growing number of people who play found only and ignore the auction houses altogether. It's a very satisfying way to play.
    Not to sound like ass so don't take it that way.

    Its a small number of people not having to use the AH yes I agree but growing I dough it.

    Unless you play hardcore cause from I hear the AH there is dam near empty many use the AH on softcore side or have used it and now can farm Uber10 solo.

    But none of that changes the fact that RNG is so bad in D3 they players like myself feel forced to grind gold to buy items from the AH.

    I rather play a ARPG where I grind mobs for Gear not for Gold cause then when that item drops I'm happy and feel I finally got something interested.

    To me you don't get the same feel when buying from the AH as you do from when A Item drops and that to me is the spirit of a ARPG.

    We will just have to agree to disagree but I feel that D3 has the shell of a ARPG but its inside's is anything but that.

    Lets compare it to something for one moment.

    Lets use WOW would you rather get that end game raid boss kill and work on those achievements yourself and get the mount from said achievements Or spend gold and buy your way to it.

    I personally would rather work for what I get and buying it from the AH dose not feel like I did.

    With how bad RNG and Itemization is I am forced to do one of 3 things.

    1) Flip the AH for profit then buy gear.
    2) Spent Real Life $$$$ then buy gear.
    3) Grind Mobs for gold then buy gear.
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2013-04-28 at 02:34 AM.
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  8. #28
    Been playing actively since Day 1 and was a closed beta participant. The game is better than it was 1 year ago. It's been broken down and analyzed so many times it's like beating a dead horse.

    Few weeks ago it was said 3 million players log in a month and 1 million log in per day. It's healthy as far as player activity (despite a very common misconception it's dead) and it's slowly getting better. I think people who stick around for the expansion will be rewarded, which is what I'm hoping for. Essentially my gaming time in Diablo 3 is a gamble. If the expansion is awesome I will feel rewarded, if not than I will be disappointed.

    That's how I and a lot of others look at it. Can't speak for everyone.

  9. #29
    D3 is very boring the RNG and Itemization is horrid as its been stated many times. I mean ive played up to the last act in Inferno and I have only gotten 2 upgrades. One was a drop and 1 I bought from the AH. I will never pick that game up again the rewards gained for time put into it is atrocious. I play to smash face and get gear and as a normal player that is not a realistic option. I only log in to see who of my wow friends is online
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Serpenth View Post
    Been playing actively since Day 1 and was a closed beta participant. The game is better than it was 1 year ago. It's been broken down and analyzed so many times it's like beating a dead horse.

    Few weeks ago it was said 3 million players log in a month and 1 million log in per day. It's healthy as far as player activity (despite a very common misconception it's dead) and it's slowly getting better. I think people who stick around for the expansion will be rewarded, which is what I'm hoping for. Essentially my gaming time in Diablo 3 is a gamble. If the expansion is awesome I will feel rewarded, if not than I will be disappointed.

    That's how I and a lot of others look at it. Can't speak for everyone.
    I can agree with that and I do hope the Expansion dose bring a lot to D3.

    The question is how long until that expansion comes out and how many chances to D3 will happen before then?

    Like I said if D3 cost 30$ or less ill buy it anymore then that and it would really take a lot to interest me.

    I hope with the x-pac they work it out to where you can play offline.
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  11. #31
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    I rather play a ARPG where I grind mobs for Gear not for Gold cause then when that item drops I'm happy and feel I finally got something interested.

    To me you don't get the same feel when buying from the AH as you do from when A Item drops and that to me is the spirit of a ARPG.
    I don't disagree that itemization is basically bad. Where I guess I part ways with most people, especially now that I just refuse to use either AH for anything, is this:

    Can you get the very best gear in the game within a reasonable amount of time putting in a reasonable amount of effort? Probably not unless RNG favors you to a great extent.

    Can you gear yourself through drops and crafting to the point where you can continue to progress to the the deepest part of end game? Yes, I think so. I don't think the reward system works very well at the deepest part of end game, say MP10 with paragon levels completed, but you can get there and do them.

    Wilson was right when he said that the AH's caused great damage to the game, especially to the reward piece of it. You can outfit yourself with good enough gear for relatively cheap and then go for months and months without ever seeing an upgrade. That's messed up, not fun and I'm all for them removing them from the game entirely or setting up a server instance where they don't exist.

    I can't stress enough that playing found-only is much more satisfying than going the usual route. What you have to give up though is interaction with other players as your gear, while good enough to get you by, will not be as good as those who got theirs from either of the AH's. Since I only play with friends and family members and they're very well aware of my position on this it's not a problem. I'm fine with having gear good enough to do what I want to do but find it understandable that others might not. I was pretty much reconciled to this from the exact day I heard there would be an RMAH so that's really old news for me by now. Even when I was using the AH last year, I never opened up the interface to the RMAH. It's buy-to-win and that's not terribly interesting.
    A bit of civility and respect for others opinions goes a long way toward getting any respect in return. Overly hostile, profane and insulting posts are a sign that people don't really have anything to say. Profanity is best served out in very small doses.

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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Name me one other ARPG that you had to grind gold and buy the gear from a auction house to progress ur power.....ill wait.
    All of them essentially.

    You didn't pay attention to my first post here about apples and oranges. Otherwise your replies would not be formulated.

    "Gold" is meaningless. It's just a term.

    If we replaced all gold coins with goldfish crackers and all items with badges saying +X RANDOMSTAT, we would have not changed a single core concept or gameplay mechanic of Diablo 3. Or any other ARPG in the history of ever.

    Graphical representation means nothing. ARPGs are spreadsheet driven grinders.

    Call it gold, apples, eggshells, loot, chainmail, chaos orbs or scrolls- it makes zero difference,

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    All of them essentially.

    You didn't pay attention to my first post here about apples and oranges. Otherwise your replies would not be formulated.

    "Gold" is meaningless. It's just a term.

    If we replaced all gold coins with goldfish crackers and all items with badges saying +X RANDOMSTAT, we would have not changed a single core concept or gameplay mechanic of Diablo 3. Or any other ARPG in the history of ever.

    Graphical representation means nothing. ARPGs are spreadsheet driven grinders.

    Call it gold, apples, eggshells, loot, chainmail, chaos orbs or scrolls- it makes zero difference,
    Don't think you get what I mean so as I said early'er we will have to just agree to disagree.

    I feel that the AH has ruined alot of D3 and tons of others do as well I'm sure. Ill just watch upcoming updates and x-pac info in hopes that something sparks my interest until then I won't be playing D3.
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  14. #34
    I try to play every now and then but the story is forced down my throat, and the environments are uninspiring. I thought the tiles were a good idea at first, but they are not. The world is very small, and the dungeons are not random. I should not be able to walk into a randomized dungeon and find the exit without exploring 70% of it every time without fail. I liked boss kills in D2 honestly. At first I was excited when they said we would be going throughout the world to get the good gear, but the world is such a drag, and gear drops so often (usually beyond worthless including legendaries) that it just doesn't give you that excitement that it should. Their 1 trillion builds, which I never even came close to believing, was complete bullshit. Maybe 1-2 on release, and 4-6 now. They took out arena for whatever their ridiculous reasoning was, and it has hurt my chances of ever playing the game again. Maybe if you could just go from act to act without being constrained to their garbage story, and if the environments were random and big enough I wouldn't have been bored. But the itemization and other glaring shortcomings of the game ruined it forever, and the only way to fix it is to just take it offline and start over.

  15. #35
    My theory is simple... Diablo III's next expansion pack is not just going to be promoted as an expansion, but will be hyped up to be complete re-launch/overhaul of Diablo III.

    I guarantee that people will see the expansion and say "Woah! That's a WHOLE lot more than I was expecting!"... and that's what Blizz will want you to think.

    So, this is why you won't see any major content in patches. They're saving ALL of it for the "re-launch" via the expansion.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    My theory is simple... Diablo III's next expansion pack is not just going to be promoted as an expansion, but will be hyped up to be complete re-launch/overhaul of Diablo III.

    I guarantee that people will see the expansion and say "Woah! That's a WHOLE lot more than I was expecting!"... and that's what Blizz will want you to think.

    So, this is why you won't see any major content in patches. They're saving ALL of it for the "re-launch" via the expansion.
    I have a feeling that will happen as well.

    I personally feel they gutted out a lot of things just to give them to us in the x-pac so they can make more money.
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  17. #37
    Stood in the Fire Zenko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    My theory is simple... Diablo III's next expansion pack is not just going to be promoted as an expansion, but will be hyped up to be complete re-launch/overhaul of Diablo III.

    I guarantee that people will see the expansion and say "Woah! That's a WHOLE lot more than I was expecting!"... and that's what Blizz will want you to think.

    So, this is why you won't see any major content in patches. They're saving ALL of it for the "re-launch" via the expansion.
    Your theories have been historically close to the truth. On that note, I dont expect any major installment for D3 to be released for another 18-24 months either.

  18. #38
    D3 do have too much RNG

    Diablo 2 you could make a boss run and almost get something you could use.. maybe not for you but then something for your other chars or something you could trade

    D3 you can farm for 100 hours and maybe get 2-3 items for the ah because you can't use them for your class

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    All of them essentially.

    You didn't pay attention to my first post here about apples and oranges. Otherwise your replies would not be formulated.

    "Gold" is meaningless. It's just a term.

    If we replaced all gold coins with goldfish crackers and all items with badges saying +X RANDOMSTAT, we would have not changed a single core concept or gameplay mechanic of Diablo 3. Or any other ARPG in the history of ever.

    Graphical representation means nothing. ARPGs are spreadsheet driven grinders.

    Call it gold, apples, eggshells, loot, chainmail, chaos orbs or scrolls- it makes zero difference,
    Please name a few, atm I can't remember one ARPG I played that had an auction house. Though I usually play games as single player.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    What you are grinding is of no consequence when the end result is power progression.
    It is of consequence when, as a game creator, you want your players to continue playing. Grinding for infinite scaling stat points, grinding for gold, and grinding for loot would all have the same end result of power progression, but only one of those adds an additional element.

    It's the same concept behind why people gamble - that "the next one could be a winner" feeling that infinite stat scaling and gold drops from creatures simply does not provide. It's Grind X to Achieve Y with a chance at getting Z to get you to Y faster. That rush when you get Z is what fuels the player as they work their way toward Y, and it's an integral part of the ARPG genre.

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