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  1. #1

    Are Windwalkers ever a threat?

    It's starting to feel like I'm outshined in almost every way by Warriors, Druids, Rogues, DKs and Paladins. Often it feels like all I have to get by are Touch of Karma and Ring of Peace (which looks to be being nerfed to being magnitudes inferior to its current state).

    So yeah, please state your class and spec and how you feel about fighting Windwalkers.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    It's starting to feel like I'm outshined in almost every way by Warriors, Druids, Rogues, DKs and Paladins. Often it feels like all I have to get by are Touch of Karma and Ring of Peace (which looks to be being nerfed to being magnitudes inferior to its current state).

    So yeah, please state your class and spec and how you feel about fighting Windwalkers.
    I know how you feel, with the previous nurfs to Paralysis and Spear hand strike (Silence portion) our niche has all but vanished. They focused us heavily on Control over burst and survivability but too many people didn't like it and called for nurfs. So instead of offsetting it in some other aspect, a decent mastery buff which did increase our burst overall but still didn't fill the gap left by control nurfs, they left us how we are now. Not saying we are bad, just sub par, or as you put it, outshined.

  3. #3
    I think Windwalkers are pretty underpar. Most people didn't properly know how to react to them and cried for nerfs on PTR, but if you now put all their pros and cons down on paper they truly are a sub-par spec in comparison to a lot of the other strong classes currently. (I'm not saying they are worse than Ret/Enh etc).

    Having played one a lot on the old PTR and on live, the main noticeable difference was that I couldn't get people to 50% with pressure and then kill them in a Fists of Fury -> Blanket. Why blizzard nerfed SHS blanket is understandable (Warriors not having it anymore led to people asking why should monks have it), but not giving Monks something to compensate means that outside of Fists of Fury (which nearly always shared its damage with Pets and teammates), unless they are specced into Leg Sweep, they've got nothing else to cover their damage with.


    There is 4 very simple tweaks I'd make to Monk to make them more appealing:

    • A baseline 5-10 yard increase on disables range (hamstring) would be an amazing change, as Monks don't have any true gap closers which let them get off their slow (shadowstep/charge let other melee get their slow off).
    • Charging Ox Wave OR Leg Sweep made baseline. Personally i'd rather Charging Ox Wave, it's an awesome spell. 3s duration stun on a 30s CD isn't overpowered, but would mean we had some sort of stun to follow up FoF, or a reliable stun for peeling teammates.
    • Ring of Peace CD increased to 1 min 30s instead of 45s. To offset having a reliable stun, I think every other minute people should be able to try for a kill on Monks without having to worry out RoP. Right now, RoP is a good spell with a lot of good uses, but the CD is a lot lower than it should be. If we got a reliable stun and a ranged slow, i'd be happy with it having its CD doubled.
    • Being able to start Arena/RBG games with 10 stacks of Tigereye brew.

  4. #4
    1v1, they're very, very strong. This is as someone who mains a rogue and plays WW as an alt. 2v2, they're also strong. Haven't done any 3v3 or rbgs, but I could see their utility being very useful at least as an FC next patch given the changes to flag carrying in rated battlegrounds. (50% damage bonus against FCs that are tank specced vs 20% as any other spec)

  5. #5
    WW is in a decent spot right now. I don't feel they're underpowered at all, just underplayed although I am starting to see more and more everyday.

    The problem is that Tiger Brew takes time to stack, unlike say.. Warriors who can blow Avatar and Recklessness right out the gate for crazy burst.

    Also the 10% damage buff for RSK debuff is going to be pretty damn good.
    Last edited by Chingylol; 2013-04-28 at 03:53 AM.

  6. #6
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    I think Windwalkers are pretty underpar. Most people didn't properly know how to react to them and cried for nerfs on PTR, but if you now put all their pros and cons down on paper they truly are a sub-par spec in comparison to a lot of the other strong classes currently. (I'm not saying they are worse than Ret/Enh etc).

    Having played one a lot on the old PTR and on live, the main noticeable difference was that I couldn't get people to 50% with pressure and then kill them in a Fists of Fury -> Blanket. Why blizzard nerfed SHS blanket is understandable (Warriors not having it anymore led to people asking why should monks have it), but not giving Monks something to compensate means that outside of Fists of Fury (which nearly always shared its damage with Pets and teammates), unless they are specced into Leg Sweep, they've got nothing else to cover their damage with.


    There is 4 very simple tweaks I'd make to Monk to make them more appealing:

    • A baseline 5-10 yard increase on disables range (hamstring) would be an amazing change, as Monks don't have any true gap closers which let them get off their slow (shadowstep/charge let other melee get their slow off).
    • Charging Ox Wave OR Leg Sweep made baseline. Personally i'd rather Charging Ox Wave, it's an awesome spell. 3s duration stun on a 30s CD isn't overpowered, but would mean we had some sort of stun to follow up FoF, or a reliable stun for peeling teammates.
    • Ring of Peace CD increased to 1 min 30s instead of 45s. To offset having a reliable stun, I think every other minute people should be able to try for a kill on Monks without having to worry out RoP. Right now, RoP is a good spell with a lot of good uses, but the CD is a lot lower than it should be. If we got a reliable stun and a ranged slow, i'd be happy with it having its CD doubled.
    • Being able to start Arena/RBG games with 10 stacks of Tigereye brew.
    Wat starting with 10 stacks. That would be pretty damn ridiculous. Usually in arenas if I hit 10 stacks, someone dies.

    I really think the only thing WW needs is the Brewmaster tank stance as an option, akin to warrior defensive stance/blood pres. If a warrior/fdk/rogue connects on me with no RoP, TOK, or Grapple Weapon (which is meh anyway because any smart pvper has a weapon chain) I die within a stun usually, and I have 67.6% resil.

    Granted, this may be fixed with the PvP power changes to lower burst, but I still feel squishy, even in comparison to my hunter and boomkin.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Coraulten View Post
    with the previous nurfs to Paralysis and Spear hand strike (Silence portion) our niche has all but vanished. They focused us heavily on Control over burst and survivability but too many people didn't like it and called for nurfs.
    I only started playing again a few weeks ago after a break since Dragon Soul, so I can't really say I know anything about what Monks used to be, but it feels like I'm playing a bit of a toned down class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    I think Windwalkers are pretty underpar. Most people didn't properly know how to react to them and cried for nerfs on PTR, but if you now put all their pros and cons down on paper they truly are a sub-par spec in comparison to a lot of the other strong classes currently. (I'm not saying they are worse than Ret/Enh etc).
    That's pretty much how I'm feeling. My CC is worse than a Rogue/Druid, my burst is predictable and inflexible in comparison, my sticking power is an absolute joke compared to a Rogue/Druid against anyone who knows my kit, my survivability against melee seems to be noticeably inferior but at least my magic survivability is good I guess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grawlix View Post
    1v1, they're very, very strong. This is as someone who mains a rogue and plays WW as an alt. 2v2, they're also strong. Haven't done any 3v3 or rbgs, but I could see their utility being very useful at least as an FC next patch given the changes to flag carrying in rated battlegrounds. (50% damage bonus against FCs that are tank specced vs 20% as any other spec)
    I will say that I've been pleasantly surprised about my slipperiness as a flag / orb carrier... Until the debuffs stack, that is. Seems a little bit inconsistent / arbitrary that FSK and Roll are gimped but teleports, charges and leaps go uninhibited. I suppose Touch of Karma and Dispersion work despite being almost as powerful as Ice Block though so I guess whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chingylol View Post
    The problem is that Tiger Brew takes time to stack, unlike say.. Warriors who can blow Avatar and Recklessness right out the gate for crazy burst.
    That's my main complaint. I got in a scuffle with a Ret Paladin the other day in a daily hub and I swear I could almost hear his keyboard shatter as he slammed his burst macro and went to town on me, with my tiger gently scratching his back the whole time.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    I really think the only thing WW needs is the Brewmaster tank stance as an option, akin to warrior defensive stance/blood pres. If a warrior/fdk/rogue connects on me with no RoP, TOK, or Grapple Weapon (which is meh anyway because any smart pvper has a weapon chain) I die within a stun usually, and I have 67.6% resil.
    I'm not really convinced that's the best way of doing things. I'd certainly take it but I think we have enough reactionary abilities already. A flat damage reduction or armour buff to Tiger Stance would be a more elegant solution in my opinion but I'm sure there's something better still out there. Maybe putting a short term, relatively small damage reduction buff on Expel Harm and toning its damage down or something? I don't know.

  8. #8
    Before they get any other buffs, Windwalkers probably need some of their survivability against casters shifted to survivability against melee. The former is too good while the latter is lacking too much.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripley6174 View Post
    Before they get any other buffs, Windwalkers probably need some of their survivability against casters shifted to survivability against melee. The former is too good while the latter is lacking too much.
    Their only survivability against casters is Diffuse Magic, so I'm not sure what you are referring too? Honestly curious, I may be forgetting something, but I don't think so.

  10. #10
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripley6174 View Post
    Before they get any other buffs, Windwalkers probably need some of their survivability against casters shifted to survivability against melee. The former is too good while the latter is lacking too much.
    Ring of Peace and all the self heals aren't so bad now against Melee, but its the lack of burst that needs to be fixed over anything.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripley6174 View Post
    Before they get any other buffs, Windwalkers probably need some of their survivability against casters shifted to survivability against melee. The former is too good while the latter is lacking too much.
    Even after the 5.3 nerfs WW is perfectly fine. They're able to contend with the best melee (which happen to be hybrids atm) and have enough active defense to ensure that they're a threat.

    Just as most people don't know how to deal with WW monks more others don't even know how to play them. A good WW monk will make you wish you were versing a T2 rogue instead.

    But there is ONE very major problem with the class: it's dependence on RNG avoidance (random dodge/parry) against melee. RNG avoidance outside of heavy cds just needs to be completely removed and classes such as monks and to a much lesser extent rogues and ferals that rely on them need to be compensated. There's no reason to have this retarded anti-melee mechanic in the game when casters are already flat out better in most regards. AND this defense only works negatively for the classes that have them due to how much CC there is completely negating the defense in the first place in rated play.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2013-04-28 at 06:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Their only survivability against casters is Diffuse Magic, so I'm not sure what you are referring too? Honestly curious, I may be forgetting something, but I don't think so.
    Their survivability against casters comes from both defensive cd's and their ability to lock down a caster hard.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripley6174 View Post
    Their survivability against casters comes from both defensive cd's and their ability to lock down a caster hard.
    Lock down what casters hard? Frost Mage can just blink out of FoF, and you spend half the game in a Nova. After you use Nimble Brew/Trinket, a deep will kill you, most likely(without heals).

    I understand being better against Spriests/Locks, but frost mages should crush WW pretty hard.

  14. #14
    As a demo lock a good WW monk is the only opponent that can give me serious trouble 1v1.
    Last edited by Demonized; 2013-04-28 at 07:36 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Lock down what casters hard? Frost Mage can just blink out of FoF, and you spend half the game in a Nova. After you use Nimble Brew/Trinket, a deep will kill you, most likely(without heals).

    I understand being better against Spriests/Locks, but frost mages should crush WW pretty hard.
    The ENTIRE reason rogues and frost mages are over the top right now is because burst across the board is over the top and these two classes have low cd maximal lockout burst in their arsenal.

    And that's the best part about the 5.3 pvp power change, these two classes (or really any class for that matter) can no longer even bring you below 20-30% with all cds popped in an opener let alone kill you.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  16. #16
    WW Monks have a pretty high skill cap. Really good ones can do pretty amazing things but not so good ones will fail a lot.

    The 10% buff coming in 5.3 will put WW in a good spot in my opinion.

  17. #17
    Mechagnome Mr. Casual's Avatar
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    i have played ww since mop and but im not pro pvper but i do have a good amount of xp with the class and i feel ike we are good but not great, i love all the tools and mobility we have but for the way the game is played now with so many classes doing crazy amounts of damage i feel like our damage just isnt there. but hopefully the incoming 5.3 buff should help. It just seems now unless ur doing unthinkable amounts of you arent going to kill much. And for monks to get anywhere near that lvl of burst requires a good amount of ramp up with tigerseye.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-28 at 11:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    The ENTIRE reason rogues and frost mages are over the top right now is because burst across the board is over the top and these two classes have low cd maximal lockout burst in their arsenal.

    And that's the best part about the 5.3 pvp power change, these two classes (or really any class for that matter) can no longer even bring you below 20-30% with all cds popped in an opener let alone kill you.
    really? that seems a little to extreme in the other direction........ when all cooldowns are popped there should be the threat of a possible kill not a little 20-30% tickle
    Last edited by Mr. Casual; 2013-04-28 at 11:22 PM.

  18. #18
    I beat a monk who's main has been 2700+ in 3s, he has a ton of tyrannical on his monk as well. I beat him with greater than 90% of my hp remaining on both my lock and my hunter. WW monks are a joke and if one is giving you trouble try lvling one and getting good with it. Guarantee you won't have problems with them for long. Terriblemonk aka Dominoz r1 monk has trouble with all sorts of classes. Look up Venruki vs dominoz etc. He is an exceptionally great player that has managed to make an underwhelming class perform at its absolute best and is just slaughtered by venruki who doesn't even IB or Coldsnap, and its in a Wargame with LOS.

    If you think WW monks are overpowered then you are mistaken. WW can be a threat sure, just like ret or enhance or elemental. All of which aren't good.
    Last edited by lokatii; 2013-04-29 at 03:43 AM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    It's starting to feel like I'm outshined in almost every way by Warriors, Druids, Rogues, DKs and Paladins. Often it feels like all I have to get by are Touch of Karma and Ring of Peace (which looks to be being nerfed to being magnitudes inferior to its current state).

    So yeah, please state your class and spec and how you feel about fighting Windwalkers.
    It's a L2P issue. I had it too. Get up to date gear, enchanted, socketted, etc, get some practice vs those classes and you will rip them apart. The 5 classes you said are the easiest. (feral druid and exceptional UH dks are 50/50). If you are on EU I'd love to help you beat them. Add me: [email protected]

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 10:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by lokatii View Post
    I beat a monk who's main has been 2700+ in 3s, he has a ton of tyrannical on his monk as well. I beat him with greater than 90% of my hp remaining on both my lock and my hunter. WW monks are a joke and if one is giving you trouble try lvling one and getting good with it. Guarantee you won't have problems with them for long. Terriblemonk aka Dominoz r1 monk has trouble with all sorts of classes. Look up Venruki vs dominoz etc. He is an exceptionally great player that has managed to make an underwhelming class perform at its absolute best and is just slaughtered by venruki who doesn't even IB or Coldsnap, and its in a Wargame with LOS.

    If you think WW monks are overpowered then you are mistaken. WW can be a threat sure, just like ret or enhance or elemental. All of which aren't good.
    Way to go to compare a monk to his hardcounter.

  20. #20
    What if they changed touch of karma to do direct dmg instead of shitty dot. My burst classes just run through it no problem, and dk i can just conversion lolheal through it, or if that's too powerful maybe 75% dmg, possible glyph idea?.

    Also, they need to allow touch of karma to be used while stunned/silence? it would definitely help counter openers until you're able to build chi to pop other survivabililty cds.

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