1. #1

    Shadow stats and haste help

    I am currently having trouble with my silverlight client and am unable to run a simcraft and am a little unsure about my haste if i should cap it lower and add some extra stats? Any advice would be fantastic thankyou
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Heavens/simple
    Last edited by frooty; 2013-04-28 at 12:00 PM.

  2. #2
    links not working

  3. #3
    Sorry is that better?

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Simcraft:
    This is the tool that is used to get our stat weights (aka PP). Unlike in previous expansions you can't easily run yourself through Simcraft to get customized stat weights. This is because there are simply too many variables that come into play with analyzing stat priorities / weights / breakpoints. There's the 9 combinations of talents, different fight types and two kinds of secondary stat analyses that all need to be taken into account. With a dedicated machine (aka the Blowtorch) it takes around ~24 hours of simulations to produce the stat weights.



    Reforging:
    While Haste Breakpoints are of note and worth getting they do not practically change anything. Haste will always be your best secondary stat beyond any Breakpoint. You will be Gemming, Enchanting and Reforging the same regardless of your level of Haste.

    Without Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen:
    Hit to Cap > Haste > Crit > Mastery


    With Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen:
    Hit to Cap > Haste > Mastery > Crit

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    Simcraft:
    This is the tool that is used to get our stat weights (aka PP). Unlike in previous expansions you can't easily run yourself through Simcraft to get customized stat weights. This is because there are simply too many variables that come into play with analyzing stat priorities / weights / breakpoints. There's the 9 combinations of talents, different fight types and two kinds of secondary stat analyses that all need to be taken into account. With a dedicated machine (aka the Blowtorch) it takes around ~24 hours of simulations to produce the stat weights.



    Reforging:
    While Haste Breakpoints are of note and worth getting they do not practically change anything. Haste will always be your best secondary stat beyond any Breakpoint. You will be Gemming, Enchanting and Reforging the same regardless of your level of Haste.

    Without Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen:
    Hit to Cap > Haste > Crit > Mastery


    With Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen:
    Hit to Cap > Haste > Mastery > Crit
    Honestly this is BS. People keep saying this everywhere I read and I just don't buy it. Nobody should care what general stat weights work for all fights. Unless you're trying to get your 99% epeenbot parses the only thing that matters is the fight type you are progressing on. This makes picking talents and fight type significantly easier. Only 2 or 3 combinations. Even if you can't deduce what the best are for a fight type (which is pretty easy) you can just look at top WoL parses real fast.

    For every other expansion top theory crafters kept saying that these general stat weights are not accurate for your gear, and suddenly this expansion it's just to complicated to get accurate weights? It might be harder, but the 24 hours with a dedicated simming machine is such a fallacy general weights averaged amongst all talents and fights just don't matter

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    You don't seem to understand how the Stat Weights are derived. They are, in fact, average PP of only the best talent choices per fight.

    Please take some time to understand how they were arrived upon by reading Twintop's full blog post on them:
    http://warcraft.twintop-tahoe.com/?p=631

    If you find something that could be improved whether it be method or math please provide feedback as the goal is to put out the best information possible.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-28 at 09:45 AM ----------

    I would like to add I am a staunch advocate of changing talents and glyphs on a per fight basis. I will easily go through two or so stacks of Tomes a week. You can find Recommendations and discussion on all the ToT fights here: [H2P] Quick Links for Encounter Discussions

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-28 at 09:51 AM ----------

    I feel I should address this more specifically:

    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    For every other expansion top theory crafters kept saying that these general stat weights are not accurate for your gear, and suddenly this expansion it's just to complicated to get accurate weights? It might be harder, but the 24 hours with a dedicated simming machine is such a fallacy general weights averaged amongst all talents and fights just don't matter
    The reason that I stress "Unlike in previous expansions" is that you were encouraged to Sim yourself to get custom stat weights. Back then there were standard builds and the only real variables were the encounter type and your gearset. You could simply run yourself through using various fight types and get good stat weights.

    Now we're changing talents all the time and with the changes to DP we get odd results with only positive stat scaling around Haste breakpoints. These lead to very complicated and misleading Simming.

    Simming is not easy this time around but believe me I wish it was.
    Last edited by Frmercury; 2013-04-28 at 02:55 PM.

  7. #7
    Can you explain the issue with positive only simming on haste? That is one of the big issues I have with the general stat weights. I feel like its overvaluing haste after breakpoints.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    Can you explain the issue with positive only simming on haste? That is one of the big issues I have with the general stat weights. I feel like its overvaluing haste after breakpoints.
    BTW you are missing an enchant to your new valor ring

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by cabibi64 View Post
    BTW you are missing an enchant to your new valor ring
    Haha thanks ill fix that when I'm home. Always forget

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    Can you explain the issue with positive only simming on haste? That is one of the big issues I have with the general stat weights. I feel like its overvaluing haste after breakpoints.
    As taken from H2P: http://www.howtopriest.com/viewtopic...&t=3160#p27316

    Quote Originally Posted by Drye @ H2P
    Why is my haste simming lower than these results?

    Twintop wrote:
    There have been A LOT of people wondering what's up with scale factors. I've sent this message to a few people already, so I'm posting it here in public to try and clear up some confusion:


    The way that SimC generates stat weights is fairly simple. It first runs a the profile you've provided without any changes to determine the DPS it can do. After that, it runs the profile again for each stat that you wish to get a weight for. It does this by adding 1000 to the value, re-running it, and then computing the difference between the two, then, dividing it by the offset value (1000).

    Example: I run my profile and get 100,000 DPS. I run the scale factor for Int (by the system adding 1000 Int to my profile) and get 105,000 DPS. To get the scale factor for Int, I use this formula:


    Code:
    (105000 - 100000) / 1000 = 5.00

    So my scaling factor for Int is 5. I do the same for Haste, Crit, Mastery, and Spell Power.

    Hit/Spirit is a little different. Because Hit is cap-able, if I add more on to a capped profile I won't see any difference. SimC knows this, so it subtracts 1000 and runs the profiles in the exact same way.


    Why is this important? For Shadow Priests, we are very dependent on Haste and, more specifically, Haste Breakpoints, for maximizing our DPS right now. When SimC computes the scaling value of Haste, any breakpoints we've already passed are ignored and, unless there is a breakpoint within the next 1000 haste rating of your character, will sim lower than it does in reality.

    For my BiS lists, I'm running sims to generate scaling factors both the normal +1000 way, but also doing some downscaling (-1000) to properly account for these breakpoints affecting Haste.

    This isn't to say that the value that SimC is giving you is wrong, just that if you get 1000 secondary stats to put in to Haste, Mastery, or Crit, you'll get the biggest result out of putting them in to Mastery. It IS NOT saying that Haste is terrible and you should dump as much as possible.

    If you want to try simming the downscaling, you can add this to the top of your profile (above the "actionlist=")


    Code:
    calculate_scale_factors=1
    scale_only=intellect,spell_power,haste,mastery,crit,hit
    scale_intellect=-1000
    scale_spell_power=-1000
    scale_haste_rating=-1000
    scale_mastery_rating=-1000
    scale_crit_rating=-1000
    scale_hit_rating=-1000

  11. #11
    Does that make sense to you? because it doesn't make sense to me. Right now if you sim your character with a positive only delta and you are just past a breakpoint, you are getting accurate stat weights as long as we assume you don't go below that breakpoint, right?

    So instead of going with the accurate scalings for haste, they do a huge generalization of stats. They sim it again, only making your haste lower then the breakpoint you are at, and then give you an inflated value for haste (because it averages the gain from adding more haste [small], against the loss from losing haste [massive]) The issue here is nobody ever is going to suggest losing haste under a big breakpoint. so using a +- delta doesn't make any sense.

    The only thing i can imagine using a +- delta for is if you're just trying to just give some general idea on how to gear from someone who has never played a shadow priest before. It's like we're trying to turn howtopriest.com into Noxxic.

  12. #12
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    That's pretty much correct Hikamiro. You can get accurate numbers using SimCraft by simming your gear (ignoring scale factors) and then simming an imported set with the planned changes, and measuring the delta gain yourself: this is always an accurate representation (at least as far as simming say, a Patchwerk sim - helps you kill a non-patchwerk fight, which can lead to some big discrepancies).

    The biggest problem isn't necessarily that 'simcraft scale factors are inaccurate' - just that 'simcraft scale factors can be wildly different for everyone', and 'reforging just a few pieces for the highest stat will change their relative value, and may invalidate your finding (until you re-sim)'.
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  13. #13
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Simcraft is useless. It just over complicates making decisions that are actually really easy to be made using simple logic.
    If you're reaching 20k int raid buffed gem full haste. If you have the LMG/Lei Shen trinket consider Mastery your 2nd best secondary stat. If you have neither, go for crit. It's just that simple.

    Pick talents based on top WoL parses, or based on what your raid lacks damage on, don't stand in fire, and you're already a better raider than 90% of people who play this game.
    When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears
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  14. #14
    ^ Amen.

    This needs to be have the answers to questions

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Veiled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    It's like we're trying to turn howtopriest.com into Noxxic.
    Since our information has always been more accurate and far more in-depth than Noxxic, I'd have to say this is quite the stretch to make simply because you don't understand how breakpoints/stats work.

    MoP Guides, Raiding and Pre-Raiding BiS Lists, Theorycrafting, Healing/DPS Help & More!

  16. #16
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled View Post
    Since our information has always been more accurate and far more in-depth than Noxxic, I'd have to say this is quite the stretch to make simply because you don't understand how breakpoints/stats work.
    Also this! H2P is great, Noxxic is a swear word in the Priest community - trying to create simple rules to help people understand an increasingly complex game (at least mathematically, with a variety of talent combinations and synergies all with unique stat weights) - isn't something Noxxic did first, or did well: it's needed now more than ever though, because most Spriests (understandably) don't enjoy math as much as Twintop
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-04-29 at 05:55 AM.
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  17. #17
    I rarely run sims with my Spriests, i just go by the stats most of the spriests are using, that is haste>crit>mastery, with legendary and lei shen trinket haste>mastery>crit.

    Of course it is not the best on all fights. Alot of people overvalue sims, if you reforge to a slightly better statweight, or whatever simcraft tells you to do, you will not even gain as much dps as you would gain if you optimize your dot uptime, Intproc usage.

    If you think you cant get more dps with your gear cause you play perfectly than, a) you are probably wrong and b) if you are near that point stat weighting comes into place and may give you a small dps increase.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    I rarely run sims with my Spriests, i just go by the stats most of the spriests are using, that is haste>crit>mastery, with legendary and lei shen trinket haste>mastery>crit.

    Of course it is not the best on all fights. Alot of people overvalue sims, if you reforge to a slightly better statweight, or whatever simcraft tells you to do, you will not even gain as much dps as you would gain if you optimize your dot uptime, Intproc usage.

    If you think you cant get more dps with your gear cause you play perfectly than, a) you are probably wrong and b) if you are near that point stat weighting comes into place and may give you a small dps increase.
    Yup. A good player will get more out of an optimal reforge/gemming than a sub par player. Honestly, a sub par player won't notice the difference between it unless you go full retard with reforging/gemming.

    Someone learning what stats do for you and learning how to optimize your rotation will be the biggest dps gain you will have.
    Last edited by Drye; 2013-04-29 at 01:32 PM.

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  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire Bombino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    Simcraft is useless. It just over complicates making decisions that are actually really easy to be made using simple logic.
    If you're reaching 20k int raid buffed gem full haste. If you have the LMG/Lei Shen trinket consider Mastery your 2nd best secondary stat. If you have neither, go for crit. It's just that simple.

    Pick talents based on top WoL parses, or based on what your raid lacks damage on, don't stand in fire, and you're already a better raider than 90% of people who play this game.
    I think all the simcraft downtalk on here is kinda weird.

    It's extremely customizable, and that's done easily. Unless you have very high iterations, it doesn't take very long to load either (considering your comp is relatively fast etc)

    Of course it isn't 100% live or die by, it never has been. The point is a lot of people, myself included, don't like taking other people's or site's "word" for how they optimize unless they are one of the very best at that particular job. Even then, it's better to get multiple opinions/logs instead of going by 1 person's.

    I agree with pick talents/playstyle or just generally taking advice from the best HC raiders, but simcraft has it's place also The more accurate info you can obtain from more proven sources should yield a more accurate result than relying on X. Rather, if you know how to use all the tools in your toolbox, maybe you can be better at building things.
    Last edited by Bombino; 2013-05-07 at 02:57 PM.

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