View Poll Results: Do these classes need an overhaul next expansion?

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  • Yes

    41 64.06%
  • No

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  1. #1
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Do Hunters, Mages, and Rogues need a Class overhaul?

    I gotta say, Hunters, Mages, and Rogues don't have much diversity in their specs. Sure, there are small differences, but overall, they tend to mash together. It's very reminiscent of Warlocks at the end of Cataclysm. Their spec similarities caused Blizzard to overhaul the entire spec, and that change really made things a lot better. Now Warlocks are enjoying a surge in popularity, and their population numbers are on the rise again.

    Now in the case of Mages, this was all Blizzard's doing. At the end of Cataclysm, Mage specs actually felt pretty different from one another. Blizzard actually made Mage specs more similar to each other by making the Bombs an integral part of their gameplay. Now each Mage spec works around nurturing that bomb mechanic, and it sort of sucks.

    Another thing I noticed is that these classes are also all pure classes. Warlocks became a bit more hybridized in MoP via their psuedo tank glyph Dark Apotheosis. Is this something that needs to happen to other DPS specs? Not so much making them all hybrids, but mixing up their playstyles to make them more interesting?

    Here's some examples that I had considered;

    Mages: Arcane: Make the spec into a Monk-like melee spec utilizing the Runemaster RPG class concept. They can use a Ranged/melee hybrid concept similar to Mistweaver Monks.

    Fire: Tie it more closely with Blood Mages from WC3, making the Flamestrike ability the core ability of the spec. Introduce the Phoenix as a permanent pet that can die and rebirth itself over and over during the fight.

    Frost: Frost can largely stay the same.


    Hunters: Beastmaster: This spec can largely stay the same. Perhaps have a stronger tie in with the pets, giving the Hunter new abilities based on the pet active at the time. Also make it THE ONLY HUNTER SPEC THAT CAN USE A PET.

    Marksmanship: Make it the pet-less archer spec it was meant to be.

    Survival: Survival should be based more on explosions, traps, camouflage, tracking, and killing. Kind of like a sniper, or a terrorist.


    Rogues: Assassination: Focus on poisons, and potentially make it the only spec that uses poisons. Have the poisons do more than just cause nature damage over time. Make them also cause status effects. Also you can give this spec the ability to throw poison at a target with daggers, or even the potions themselves.

    Combat: Melee/Ranged hybrid. VERY similar to the Demon Hunter class from Diablo 3. Allow them to equip crossbows/bows/guns for fighting at range. If someone gets dumb enough to want to fight close, combat rogues should be deadly in melee range as well.

    Subtly: Make them masters of illusion and shadow. No different than Ninjas or spies. Their attacks should be devastating, and be able to quickly and swiftly dispatch opponents. Warden abilities like Shadow Strike and Spirit of Vengeance can be used in this spec if necessary.
    These are just my ideas, in no way am I saying that this is the only way things could go. I'd love to see other considerations in this.

    What do you think? Do Rogues, Mages, and Hunters need a Warlock-style overhaul?

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire Ticj's Avatar
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    I'm liking your idea's except for the combat spec, ranged rogues don't really seem appealing to me.

    Since I play a fire mage, I do agree with the fact of it being the same thing, it seems like everything is the same, and honestly our survivability is a joke.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticj View Post
    I'm liking your idea's except for the combat spec, ranged rogues don't really seem appealing to me.
    Same here. Combat is about up front in your face, stab you with a broken bottle style dps. Your ideas remind me a lot of BC/Wrath rogue styles. Combat was sustained pve dps, Sub gave burst and mobility, assassination was a mix. Shame they went away from that model but the reality is they had to for pvp balance. Hopefully a return to the core of the class one day.

  4. #4
    I think instead of melee dps, Arcane Mage should be a focus on more of the "Time weaving" aspect of the mages. IE Make it a healer. I know I would love the option to occasionally heal as a mage. Would add more variety than 3 dps specs.
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  5. #5
    Mages are perfect as they are, rogues maybe, hunters definitely.
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  6. #6
    the rogue part is messed up. combat is COMBAT. it needs to be a "brawler" spec. which it currently is.

    IMHO it would be better to make sub the ranged spec, if you must make one of them ranged. killing someone from far away with a silent bolt in the head sounds pretty subtle to me.
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  7. #7
    Overhaul to address class homogeneity? Nah. Rogues and hunters could use some more differentiation between specs, but not an overhaul to accomplish that. If you're going to overhaul them for anything, overhaul Rogues for their dated mechanics. Dunno if Hunters need the same.
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  8. #8
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    I don't want everyone to focus on my suggestions, but more on the question in the OP. My suggestions were just examples of one way it COULD be addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    Overhaul to address class homogeneity? Nah. Rogues and hunters could use some more differentiation between specs, but not an overhaul to accomplish that. If you're going to overhaul them for anything, overhaul Rogues for their dated mechanics. Dunno if Hunters need the same.
    It worked great for Warlocks. I honestly feel that the other pure specs need the same treatment. Though making them full Hybrids may be a bit overboard, they definitely need some gameplay differentiation between the specs. Hunters and Rogues especially. Its a bit better for Mages because Arcane, Fire, and Frost magic are different by nature.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    Overhaul to address class homogeneity? Nah. Rogues and hunters could use some more differentiation between specs, but not an overhaul to accomplish that. If you're going to overhaul them for anything, overhaul Rogues for their dated mechanics. Dunno if Hunters need the same.
    Making the specs feel different kinda implies an overhaul.
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  10. #10
    Moderator Rivelle's Avatar
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    I've never played a rogue (can't stand them), my mage is still 85 and hasn't been touched since Cataclysm, but I love my hunter just the way it is. I honestly wouldn't want it changed.

    I'm sure marksmanship could use some changes to make it more viable but I run survival for PvE and BM for PvP and I don't really see a problem with it like it is now. BM relies heavily on the pet's damage and makes it a lot easier to be able to at least put a little damage or CC on someone when you're either being focused or are CC'd yourself.

    Survival feels like the pet might as well not even be there as it is now. Damage focuses on DOTs and what the hunter themself is doing, not their pet.

    It sounds like you're suggesting making marksmanship a PvE-based spec and having people choose between if they want a pet or to just gun down people in PvP. I don't like it. I would not want to give up my traps, camo and tracking in order to keep my pet, and I'd feel pretty worthless without the whole package.
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  11. #11
    Scarab Lord Anjerith's Avatar
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    At this point, a Class Overhaul on Hunters would probably hurt it more than help. Both BM and SV are in great places and MM can be fixed by continuing to fine-tune it and giving it a few unique shots (which they are doing).
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  12. #12
    Dreadlord Damsbo's Avatar
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    Speaking of warlocks.. How on earth are they allowed to be anywhere, geezus they are insane.
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  13. #13
    Mages: no, we have a huge toolkit, 3 viable and distinct specs, good PvP representation in every season ever.
    Hunters: get overhauled (or at least huge mechanic changes) every expansion, might be best to let them have some normalcy for a change.
    Rogues: Yes, all 3 specs are too similar and they lack flavor that distinguishes them from the other melee, haven't had any major changes in...ever.

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  14. #14
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redmage View Post
    Mages: no, we have a huge toolkit, 3 viable and distinct specs, good PvP representation in every season ever.
    Hunters: get overhauled (or at least huge mechanic changes) every expansion, might be best to let them have some normalcy for a change.
    Rogues: Yes, all 3 specs are too similar and they lack flavor that distinguishes them from the other melee, haven't had any major changes in...ever.
    Of those 3, Rogues are definitely in the worst shape, and the least played class. They're the most likely to get an overhaul next expansion.

    Hunters and Mages are still pretty popular, so Blizzard will probably hold off on changing them.

  15. #15
    Field Marshal Zakkimatsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Hunters: ...like a sniper, or a terrorist.
    for some reason, I imagined osama bin laden with a bow

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Invictus9001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    What do you think? Do [1]Rogues, [2]Mages, and [3]Hunters need a Warlock-style overhaul?
    1. Lower the bloody energy costs, or make some moves actually award multiple combo points when used in PVE, and the quality of life issues *I* have experienced (for what I have played of rogues) would be solved. No "overhaul" required.

    2. Blizzard needs to just make up their minds with regards to mages. They keep screaming that they don't want mages, as casters, to always be running around lobbing instant cast spells. They want casters to feel.. more like a traditional caster in that you must "plant your feet / cast to do damage".. Standing in place to cast is fine is someone else is soaking damage or you're far enough off for it not to make a difference.. but (esp. in PVP) standing in one place to cast usually gets you bumbleclucked. Closterfocked. Whatever you care to say to describe it. The instant cast spells really do not do sufficient damage (IMO) to warrant use outside of filler or "Oh %^$# gotta move!" moments.

    3. Hunters, of the three, seem to be in the best place of the lot at the moment. BM is actually not only viable, but kicking some major ass, and not playing second fiddle to MM and Survival for once. If, and this is a BIG "if".. if they do anything to Hunters, maybe tweak Survival into a true.. petless spec? I'm not saying to make it a melee spec.. but something more akin to "Rambo" when he went lurking with the bow and arrow.. and not so much.. pet management (esp as BM can be.) /shrug Just a thought.

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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Of those 3, Rogues are definitely in the worst shape, and the least played class. They're the most likely to get an overhaul next expansion.

    Hunters and Mages are still pretty popular, so Blizzard will probably hold off on changing them.
    Yes, rogues are the only ones I would say NEED an overhaul (badly) the addition of death knight and windwalkers and the increased viability of all melee specs have seen them go from king of the melee to the red-headed step child of classes. I was honestly expecting a rogue overhaul for MoP, the fact that blizzard had to give rogues their own legendary to make them competitive in cata seemed like a wake-up call to me, guess I was wrong, or they just got sidetracked with monks. its really sad to see the only 'pure' melee class get the short end of the stick, the new talent system made the already indistinct specs even more muddled.

    Overhauling mages would be a terrible idea, they are popular class with a good track record for both PvE and PvP, drastic changes could have serious community backlash.

    Hunters... I don't really have any first hand experience, but it seems hunters are mostly happy right now and doing better than they have in the past (especially in pvp) so maybe its best to leave them alone for now.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 03:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Invictus9001 View Post
    1. Lower the bloody energy costs, or make some moves actually award multiple combo points when used in PVE, and the quality of life issues *I* have experienced (for what I have played of rogues) would be solved. No "overhaul" required.
    I don't disagree, but rogues problems go much deeper than this. As a pure melee class whose only 3 options are all melee combat, one would expect those three options to have distinct playstyles, they don't, at all.

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  18. #18
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    I like the different resource systems each warlock spec was given. I'd love an overhaul to focus on resource management with hunters, because focus (and probably energy for rogues) is a fairly meh mechanic, especially for hunters whose only viable method of focus regen is not to sit and wait like rogues, but to cast a lower damage shot that regens focus. It kind of sucks to have to weave in filler shots just to regen a resource - in other ranged specs, the filler is used to proc things, like mages with pyro/fingers/AM.

    I don't see the need to change the classes thematically. After all, demonology is still the pet class, affliction is still the DoT class, destro is still the OMFGFIRE spec, it can stay the same thematially, I'd just love to see new resource management for these classes, hunters especially (since I play one).

    I also don't see the argument of "how good the class is currently" as any indicator of whether things should change. But if we were to argue that, hunters are in the worst spot of all 4 pure specs, at least at high end heroic raiding. Sure, it's popular at the casual level, but in raiding, ouch. No raid utilities like smoke bomb or gateways or time warp (unless you want to spec into BM and use a pet you may not be able to afford in a 10 man), no crazy damage like arcane/fire or destro or rogues who are just ripping things up in general, a few gimmicky personal CDs which used to be unique until ironically MoP gave lots of people these choices. At least in heroic progression, most guilds were only taking hunters to soak up mail agi gear. We're far from broken, we're low-to-middle of the pack, but we're definitely in last in re: pure DPS classes.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 03:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Redmage View Post
    Yes, rogues are the only ones I would say NEED an overhaul (badly) the addition of death knight and windwalkers and the increased viability of all melee specs have seen them go from king of the melee to the red-headed step child of classes.
    Rogues have been the go-to melee this patch. Warriors have become almost non-existent, and you only take DKs if you need heavy AoE and/or Gorefiends. Enhancement, lol, WW not many people play them at high levels (because they're meh).

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post

    Rogues have been the go-to melee this patch. Warriors have become almost non-existent, and you only take DKs if you need heavy AoE and/or Gorefiends. Enhancement, lol, WW not many people play them at high levels (because they're meh).
    It's not so much about how well represented they are, its about being a class that's fun to play, preferably with three distinct playstyles like all the other classes get.

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  20. #20
    I think Mages have enough to be different to each other in their toolboxes already, they just need a bit more focus.

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