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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    seeing what happens in 5.3 that dsnt seem as likely anymore
    All that I've seen that happens in 5.3 is that Varian asks for help from the Council of Three Hammers and the only one to agree is the Dark Iron clan. Is there more or that's it? If that's it, I believe that's simply foreshadowing.

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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    All that I've seen that happens in 5.3 is that Varian asks for help from the Council of Three Hammers and the only one to agree is the Dark Iron clan. Is there more or that's it? If that's it, I believe that's simply foreshadowing.
    The ending reveals that

    The Bronzebeards and Wildhammers are ashamed of their actions, and inspired by Moira stepping up to the plate, and vow never to let fear and mistrust cloud their judgement again. Cho describes them as now being 'free to trust one another.'

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    There is big diffrence between fandral and bennedictus and garrosh. While they were both important alliance figures, horde player had no idea who they were. We never seen them we never heard about them. Also while fandral was important to story before, all benedictus ever did was molesting some boys in stromwind. Garrosh on the other hand is leader of horde in the middle of horde's main city. Its really hard to compare it to theramore either.
    oh and about the undercity event no one remember how cool was for the alliance's player being teleported with jaina into the throne room of thrall in the middle of orgrimmar and having a full dialog with Jaina Thrall and Sylvanas about what happen, i don't remember any quest where an horde leader took me into Stormwind throne room and have a talk with varian or any other leader.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    That sounds a lot like the Horde, a group of outcasts banding together for mutual survival. This game doesn't need a third faction and forcing one in would require an even bigger overhaul than Cataclysm brought to the world. It won't happen unless maybe blizz someday makes WoW 2.
    The Scourge is larger than you think, the Forsaken under Sylvannas are pawns or "Arrows in her Quiver" as she puts them. The Scourge still on the level of the Zerg in potential and size. Arthas was im fact holding them back from simply overrunning Azeroth through sheer numbers. That's why we could only replace the Lich King.

    If Azeroth was ever invaded I'd like to think that Fordring literally sitting on an infinite supply of soldiers wouldn't let his friends burn when he had the power to tip the scales.

    Also a Faction is only a point of view. Giving players a choice of Strawberry instead of only Chocolate or Vanilla won't kill anyone. Your right that it would be a another huge overhaul that will never happen. Just sayin I'd like to see them more again more than the Legion.

  5. #85
    Meh, I completely agree, Trassk.


    But it's not even so much the lore/story we're given as the behavior of the fans for me. Luckily, I can just ignore it and chill in Outland on my draenei roleplaying character, staying fully out of the stupid faction conflict aside from in dailies.


    I do gotta say I liked the dialogue option and "making Vol'jin sweat", and I would've liked it just as much if the tables were turned around and the Horde made.. say, Varian sweat. It showed that Vol'jin was really involved in it, and I know it sounds silly to say that as he's the one who started the rebellion in the first place. But to see that he was afraid that potential aid was turning its back on him instead of just saying "Ya mon, ya just do what ya want." callously at the Alliance player's reply made me happy.

    It means he actually cares enough about his rebellion, about the Horde, and acknowledges the necessity of Alliance aid and he relinquishes his pride and the urge to punch the arrogant Alliance player in the face just because he really wants to save his faction.


    Some would say that makes him a weak leader unworthy of say, a Warchief position. To me, things like that make him more than valuable enough to be a Warchief. Being a leader isn't about screaming, roaring and conquering. It's about making sacrifices, even personal - for the good of your people. In a way, Blizzard made Vol'jin out to be stronger than Shaohao, because where Shaohao failed to cast away his pride to save his people, Vol'jin did not.


    It may seem inconsequential, but I thought it was cool in a way that made both Vol'jin express his seriousness about the rebellion and his capability to lead, as well as a way to make the Alliance and the Alliance player the capability to be the asshole for once, by forcing Vol'jin into a corner like that.

    Thanks for the awesome sig, Lady Amuno.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Yogg-Saron, God of Death View Post
    Meh, I completely agree, Trassk.


    But it's not even so much the lore/story we're given as the behavior of the fans for me. Luckily, I can just ignore it and chill in Outland on my draenei roleplaying character, staying fully out of the stupid faction conflict aside from in dailies.
    Blizzard is worsening the gameplay experience of their own game ...

    On one hand they ban people from being shitheads to one another in game. On the other they actively encourage players to hate one another. This isn't even a "competitive rivalry" where opponents have (grudging) respect for each other. This is outright hatred.

    I really don't get it ...

    Some would say that makes him a weak leader unworthy of say, a Warchief position. To me, things like that make him more than valuable enough to be a Warchief. Being a leader isn't about screaming, roaring and conquering. It's about making sacrifices, even personal - for the good of your people. In a way, Blizzard made Vol'jin out to be stronger than Shaohao, because where Shaohao failed to cast away his pride to save his people, Vol'jin did not.
    Woah. Never thought about it that way ...

  7. #87
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    You don't see alliance leaders rescuing children!

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Yus. I've come to the realization that, while theres still that feeling I have about still thinking of the horde as my faction, I've come to realize its based upon what I use to like about the horde, and in a strange way, what I respected about the alliance.
    From WC3 to Wrath days, I actually enjoyed the faction conflict, the sense of pride in my own faction, but also that sense of balance with the other. And lets be honest here, i think many of us did as well.

    So many threads these days is spoken out from the alliance at the dissatisfaction with the current lore, and losing there own sense of faction identity. Likewise, as horde, I don't feel any sense of pride in my faction anymore given all the current crap its gone though under Garrosh. From wc3 to wrath days, the horde felt like a unified group of misfits finding a common ground, and the odd quirks in there races didn't matter, the real feel of the faction came from its honor to each other.

    Nowadays, the horde is split apart and the racial sense of togetherness has eroded, orcs and trolls/tauren are no longer friends but fighting one another. And the alliance keeps wanting to feel any sense of faction pride it once use to feel, but never gets.

    And all this steamed from cataclysm, when the world was remade and the fundemental changes made to the horde and alliance caused these changes, you know the ones, those that people thought were so cool because they shook up the status-quo? Its not done you any good now has it?

    Infact the only ones who have gotten anything out of any of this are those who just like to see things burn and bad shit happening.

    Am I the only one that wishes cataclysm never happened, and all this misplaced storytelling was cast off? I've never felt more detached from the faction i use to love playing as, and I don't see any faction pride left even on the other side of the fence.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 12:00 AM ----------

    Edit: Infact the only satisfaction I've had storywise in mists has come from the pandaren, and not the faction based sides, just those in pandaria. I see the new battleground they made set in valley of the four winds, and instead of wooting for faction pride, all I think is 'oh god, what are these dumb fu**s doing now?'
    Mmm, I dunno; I have never felt faction pride. I just chose my side for the storytelling and aesthetics and stuck with it. My characters have always been of the mercenary kind so they just get through the day.

    Faction war is by definition pointless, but it doesn't make any less real. Taran Zhu talked about it, every aggression meet with a reprisal, and every reprisal an act of aggression into itself, and that causes escalation -Cata was about that- and cooperation plummets. I mean, that's war, and as long as neither side tries to actually push diplomacy as a politic, hostilities at best will only cool down by another external threat.

    And diplomacy won't be pushed unless the pay off for victory becomes outweighted by the spent resources; as long as a faction believes they can destroy the other and control Azeroth, war will continue.

  9. #89
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezarus View Post
    You don't see alliance leaders rescuing children!
    sadly no, the victims of the Cataclysm on the Alliance side were all killed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-05 at 01:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    And diplomacy won't be pushed unless the pay off for victory becomes outweighted by the spent resources; as long as a faction believes they can destroy the other and control Azeroth, war will continue.
    yes but, as we see in starting with Tides of War and continuing into Pandaria; it's not both factions believing they can conquer and control all of Azeroth. It's Garrosh believing he can do whatever he wants, take, destroy, conquer and enslave (and using the Horde as a vehicle to obtain his goals), and the Alliance telling him "no you can't, we won't let you, we will stop you, we will destroy you if we have to to prevent your goals of conquest from coming to fruition".

    Even Pandaria itself is stripped, defiled and unceremoniously pillaged by the Horde from the get go, his mentality being the Horde will flex at the Pandaren, kill the Alliance in front of them and "prove" to them via intimidation that joining the Horde is good for their survival. The thing is the Pandaren aren't at all impressed nor intimidated.
    Last edited by Moon Blade; 2013-05-05 at 01:40 AM.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandruntactic View Post
    "no you can't, we won't let you, we will stop you, we will destroy you if we have to to prevent your goals of conquest from coming to fruition"..
    "Why do we kill people who are killing people to show just how much killing people is wrong?"

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-05 at 01:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Faction war is by definition pointless, but it doesn't make any less real. \.
    Any war is far from pointless, people dont go out to kill for little to no reasons.

    majority of wars are about power anyways.
    The Horde wants power, the Alliance is resisting because the Horde gaining power means them losing it.
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-05-05 at 01:45 AM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    "Why do we kill people who are killing people to show just how much killing people is wrong?"
    Not at all the point. The Alliance is the first victim of Horde aggression and the intent was clear, kill them, destroy their homes, steal their resources, force them off their land and throw the Horde's bodies at them until the job is done. That was the intent, but aside from Theramore's destruction and bombing Bael'modan the Horde has been suffering massive defeats in Kalimdor. Because Hellscream failed numerous times there, he's pillaging Pandaria looking for an upperhand to win back there. So long as he's in power his actions will need to be foiled. And until he got his hands on the dark heart of y'shaarj they were being foiled right and left, not only by the Alliance but the other races of the Horde.

    The Horde wants power, the Alliance is resisting because the Horde gaining power means them losing it.
    Horde wants Alliance land and resources. Alliance is resisting because it's their land and resources. Power means nothing explicitly; the power comes with taking land and resources. Garrosh made it clear he doesn't really give a shit about the Eastern Kingdoms in Tides of War. His mentality is let the Alliance races, including those native to Kalimdor, live there and maybe we'll help defend Undercity and Silvermoon when the Alliance turns its full attention towards it. Hellscream wants Kalimdor, the Night Elves are too powerful and the Alliance won't let up, especially after Theramore.
    Last edited by Moon Blade; 2013-05-05 at 01:50 AM.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandruntactic View Post
    Horde wants Alliance land and resources. Alliance is resisting because it's their land and resources. Power means nothing. .
    land and resources = power

    Vast majority of wars are about that. One nation wants more, and you cant gain more unless another loses it.
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-05-05 at 01:54 AM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    land and resources = power
    land and resources are not explicitly power. in the case of our modern world, companies happily destroy pristine rainforest, force people off their land, and try to get local governments to be complicit in their plans and do it all for profit. Militaries aren't involved really, and money in the private sector is the goal, not national wealth.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    "Why do we kill people who are killing people to show just how much killing people is wrong?"

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-05 at 01:41 AM ----------


    Any war is far from pointless, people dont go out to kill for little to no reasons.

    majority of wars are about power anyways.
    The Horde wants power, the Alliance is resisting because the Horde gaining power means them losing it.
    And the fact that, you know, the Horde taking that power is through Garrosh KILLING them.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Vast majority of wars are about that. One nation wants more, and you cant gain more unless another loses it.
    Trade says otherwise.

  16. #96
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    We need hostility and friction between the factions otherwise its pointless having factions to begin with

    This is a video game its not shakespeare interfaction war causes rivalry and excitement

    I love having a good scrap with my ally friends and arguing with them about lore its fun to me

    All the talk about lets be friends so we can slay dragons together will make the game very boring indeed imo

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitandruntactic View Post
    Trade says otherwise.
    its called trade not giving away free stuff

    Its better to own said stuff then to have to pay for it, plus said "stuff" being in the hands of people who may or may not wish you death isnt the most ideal situation

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-05 at 02:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    And the fact that, you know, the Horde taking that power is through Garrosh KILLING them.
    doubt diplomacy could achieve that

    Even if the Night Elves went to the meeting drunk, high, and dumb they still wldnt meet Garrosh's demands
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    I love having a good scrap with my ally friends and arguing with them about lore its fun to me
    At the end of the day they are still your friends. That's supposedly how the Pandaren view being no opposite sides of the faction divide.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    its called trade not giving away free stuff

    Its better to own said stuff then to have to pay for it, plus said "stuff" being in the hands of people who may or may not wish you death isnt the most ideal situation

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-05 at 02:00 AM ----------


    doubt diplomacy could achieve that

    Even if the Night Elves went to the meeting drunk, high, and dumb they still wldnt meet Garrosh's demands
    My point is, it's a little more personal for the Alliance than 'oh, Garrosh is taking some trees and acres of land.'

  20. #100
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    its called trade not giving away free stuff
    Both nations benefit from trade, not just one.

    doubt diplomacy could achieve that

    Even if the Night Elves went to the meeting drunk, high, and dumb they still wldnt meet Garrosh's demands
    Because Hellscreams "demands" are rooted in hatred for the race, and nothing more. Why should they or anyone else, want to hear him out? He wants resources, his motivation is not providing for his nation, his motivation is "because you are inferior, not worthy of it, and I am not going to negotiate with a lesser race to get what I want".

    Not exactly bringing much to the table...

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