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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    The faction conflict dragging on continues to make no sense. Every bit of wisdom supposedly trapped inside the pre-cata leaders heads doesn't exist in the story simply to keep promoting conflict. And they say it will continue after MoP... how, and why, and with the same battle lines drawn? The way faction lore is handled is one of the biggest problems with the story. Instanced pvp doesn't need a faction to do. World PvP is simply not as popular as they want it to be and can still exist in free-for-all zones like Gurubashi arena. Having a toon on both sides doesn't fix the shitty storytelling.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 04:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Solzan Nemesis View Post
    I like it and the fact that you are feeling these emotion makes me like it even more. That's story telling. Also why I have over time gain some Horde pride. For me its all ways been sin'dorei pride.

    So yes I love that Blizzard can make people feel like this.
    It's selective. If you are a Night Elf fan but don't read the books you will be wondering where the pride is. If you do read the books you will be wondering why the fuck Blizz leaves it out of the game where it matters.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainArlong View Post
    First up, after the events of Warcraft 3, all the races should have known better since the Legion had just about conquered the world.
    People probably got a bit cocky, yeah we defeated the mighty Legion twice, what of it?

    Plus, there isnt really a way to keep tabs on the Legion, as they arnt a nation bordering your own, but some mystical alien force from outer space.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 04:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hitandruntactic View Post
    The faction conflict dragging on continues to make no sense. Every bit of wisdom supposedly trapped inside the pre-cata leaders heads doesn't exist in the story simply to keep promoting conflict..
    The game revolves around killing things, killing lots and lots and lots of things, wholescale slaughter.
    You need conflict to facilitate that.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    From wc3 to wrath days, the horde felt like a unified group of misfits finding a common ground, and the odd quirks in there races didn't matter, the real feel of the faction came from its honor to each other.

    Nowadays, the horde is split apart and the racial sense of togetherness has eroded, orcs and trolls/tauren are no longer friends but fighting one another.
    Thrall feels the same way during Sen'jin "Wait Vol'jin. Horde is spilling Horde blood. It is tearing me apart."

    They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle. Your gods are not your gods, outsider.

  4. #24
    As someone who roles both sides, it's tough for me to feel faction pride. I can feel (this is going to sound sooooo BAD) racial pride whenever my toon's race does something cool (that hasn't happened recently for my alliance main{night elf}, but I'm getting some big grins when running my horde main {troll}). As a whole, though, neither side has done something profoundly amazing together in like....ever....

    This could have happened in Cata during Deathwing's Fall. Alliance could have done something profound and necessary to take down Deathwing, and the Horde could have done something else also just as profound and necessary. Right now I can't think of what that could have been.... but... frankly... a lot of things would have been better than Thrall(though I love his character) being the hero and shooting Deathwing with the dragon soul that shouldn't have been used in the first place.

    As of right now, having a pandaren choosing sides is mostly choose whether I want to wear red or blue. It's just a color. So far there's nothing OMGOSH AMAZING about either side. Heck, even some of the better quest lines are neutral specific (Eastern Plagueslands, Badlands) We do the same thing. The starting area for the Jade forest was kinda different... heck... Cho's intro for both sides was so different that I was glad I rolled horde too (come on.... Alliance does his house chores while Horde gets the whole looking into the past to see who your race is and who you are? Just...come on...)

    Trassk brought up good points, though when it comes to the Horde side, I'm pretty sure that's what Blizzard is aiming for at this moment. For the Alliance, right on the money. Even Jaina's flip out on Dalaran was still kinda....generic. *Jaina: "Someone betrayed me??" -Kills/locks up Sunreavers-* Oh look... you're Garrosh... Almost.

  5. #25
    I don't wish the Cataclysm had never happened. Things don't always remain stagnant. That the Horde and Alliance have changed in a way people don't like from an outward perspective doesn't necessarily imply bad story telling (although I'm sure there's many other things one could point out). Frankly, I also preferred a Horde where orcs, taurens, and trolls were united on common ground, yet a story doesn't always play out in a manner where your favourite people and preferred ideas are the ones that come out on top. That applies to both fiction and non-fiction.

    That is to say, I don't think a story should be altered simply because someone doesn't want a certain aspect of it to change. It's bad storytelling when the writer's unwilling to evolve it due to emotional connections, in my opinion.
    Last edited by StationaryHawk; 2013-04-29 at 04:37 AM.

  6. #26
    There have been some missteps along the way, but personally I'm still enjoying the stories of the two factions. I may complain here and there about Thrall being overexposed in Cata or the alliance getting shafted in a few areas like twilight highlands/5.3 lack of content, but overall I'm loving the story of MoP more so than any previous expansion except maybe Wrath. (Will have to see the end of MoP before I can judge that.) In a way, not fighting a great evil force for once has grounded the conflict a bit more. The events in Dalaran were more impactful to me than some battle in a foreign landscape. Sure blizz has made some mistakes in this story but Wrath and BC and especially Cata's stories weren't perfect either. The non human races of the Alliance could use love but I still have a sense of faction pride. And while the Horde may not like Garrosh, they are getting the chance to unite against him in MoP now. Only the orcs stand with him and Thrall may well change that in 5.4 to some extent.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    I don't wish the Cataclysm had never happened. Things don't always remain stagnant. That the Horde and Alliance have changed in a way people don't like from an outward perspective doesn't necessarily imply bad story telling (although I'm sure there's many other things one could point out). Frankly, I also preferred a Horde where orcs, taurens, and trolls were united on common ground, yet a story doesn't always play out in a manner where your favourite people and preferred ideas are the ones that come out on top. That applies to both fiction and non-fiction.

    That is to say, I don't think a story should be altered simply because someone doesn't want a certain aspect of it to change. It's bad storytelling when the writer's unwilling to evolve it due to emotional connections, in my opinion.
    I fully agree with this. I love that they took on the change. You're correct, something this big can't stay the same forever. It gets boring. The handling of storytelling has been great in many places and aspects, but it's also been unbalanced. I do feel, since I run both sides, that the Horde does get better quests and storytelling than the Alliance.

    As usual, it all comes down to the fact that you can't please everyone. And sometimes, you just can't please ANYONE.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainArlong View Post
    As for the second, don't make fun of Blizzard's plot holes. The Night Elves don't like the Orcs because they clear-cut forests, but they're super cool with the humans who are doing the same in Elywnn Forest, and the Dwarves and Gnomes who exploit their own lands and blow nature up.
    Big difference here: The Humans aren't trying to cut down the night elves' trees. Also, sustainable practices. I still see a canopy in Elwynn forest.
    Knowledge is power, and power corrupts. So study hard and be evil.

  9. #29
    I liked back when the real conflict between the Alliance and the Horde was mostly background stuff, with quest lines about it here and there as you level up, but mostly it was the journey of your character.

    I think that the real issue is that there was barely any transition from being a 'background story' and went straight to 'in-your-face story'. It went from the 'story of your character's journey', to 'the war which your character participated'. Your character basically went from protagonist to support character in the time that it takes to snap your fingers.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainArlong View Post
    The Night Elves don't like the Orcs because they clear-cut forests, but they're super cool with the humans who are doing the same in Elywnn Forest, and the Dwarves and Gnomes who exploit their own lands and blow nature up.
    This again? I'll just say this: I don't care if my best friend cuts the trees in his property, or trims them like hula-dancing elephant shapes. But I *do* take issue if a random stranger, or worse, someone I don't like, breaks into my property and cuts down my house's trees. I would take an even bigger issue if said tree that was cut down was planted and nurtured by someone I care, for example.

  10. #30
    1) Try to listen to both sides if one side don’t sound right
    Personally I see what Trask is saying. The Horde under Garrosh has brought out some of the worst in the Horde’s characters. I don’t feel like a hero playing Horde from the tasks my character must do. Unlike in Wrath where the only conflict I felt was the contest between Rivals Factions. Not the one sided slaughter I’ve seen in most of Cataclysm. Still the only cure for this would be to take a ride on the other side and see that the enemy has their own story, history, reasons and misfits too.

    2) “What is worth Fighting for?”
    Seeing as how our leveling was cut in half from 80-85 and 85-90 it could be said that these events were planned to unfold together. Like there was some grand design to put the player base’s disgust into supreme satisfaction upon ridding the “source” of the problem, Garrosh. As of right now the actions of Garrosh are being blindly applauded by those who want the Horde to be conquerors not heroes. This separation of honor is seen by some and lost on others. But is a common theme seen in Mists which makes me believe there is a plot that will peak somewhere.

  11. #31
    I also wished that cataclysm storyline never happen, but mostly Blizzard give in to those that screemed about war; a full out war in a game that don't allow any clear victory due to game mechanics is a poor choice and shouldn't have happened.
    If cata was like any other xpack where alliance and horde united to defeat DW and there was just minor skirmishes then today we never be forced to see those shitstorms about lore on forum.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  12. #32
    In my opinion, I've had more faction pride moments when I've seen the Alliance and Horde actually work together despite their differences. Some of my favorites moments in MoP are when the Night Elves and Tauren worked together in both Krasarang and Valley of Four Winds, and seeing Dezco and Anduin communicating at times, and 5.2's "Lady... Lord" scene.

    I personally wish we'd just let go of this whole Alliance/Horde war and go back to killing demons, undead, dragons, etc.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nize View Post
    I personally wish we'd just let go of this whole Alliance/Horde war and go back to killing demons, undead, dragons, etc.
    Even in Mop, where this Horde/Alliance war reached its supposed high water mark, we slaughter a host of other critters besides the races of the other faction
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  14. #34
    What bugs me most about this current war is that yet again its the Horde made to be the aggressors. This is the fourth war now right? The horde is the bad guy again. Yes, they certainly do have their bad elements, but the majority of them aren't monsters.

    Its boring. Orc go rawr, Human go puffed chest. Sigh.

    Why isn't it a Nelf or a Human the one going crazy warmonger for a change? The Alliance has plenty of bad elements as well afterall. Since WoW began, the Alliance side of things has always been extremely boring. Why is there no conflict between their races? They can't surely all be buddy buddy hug hugs can they? Give them some more meat.

    I'm bored by both factions.
    'Words do not win wars. That is a tragedy.'

  15. #35
    Herald of the Titans Desaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayb View Post
    Why isn't it a Nelf or a Human the one going crazy warmonger for a change? The Alliance has plenty of bad elements as well afterall. Since WoW began, the Alliance side of things has always been extremely boring. Why is there no conflict between their races? They can't surely all be buddy buddy hug hugs can they? Give them some more meat.
    There used to be struggle for political power in Darnassus til Fandral turned wacko fire druid

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  16. #36
    Stood in the Fire AbsolutVodka's Avatar
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    Aww I thought this thread would be about having a third faction, like aside from the Horde and Alliance, that would be dope! Though I have no clue what the third faction would be =/.

    On Topic: Don't sweat it so much OP, it's just a game =P. And sorry for giving you a cliche phrase, but it is called the World of WARcraft.
    "Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the DENIAL of observation so that belief can be preserved."- Tim Minchin


  17. #37
    Yeah, but overall that did nothing to drive storyline for the Alliance as a whole.
    'Words do not win wars. That is a tragedy.'

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Even in Mop, where this Horde/Alliance war reached its supposed high water mark, we slaughter a host of other critters besides the races of the other faction
    I apologize. I should've been more specific about what I meant. I meant, moreso, the storyline focus. Since the current storyline heavily focuses on the friction between Alliance and Horde, it opens the opportunity to one faction saying things like "(This side) favoritism" or "Why's my side not getting as much love?", etc etc.

    I don't remember these bias topics popping out as much prior to Cataclysm despite the fact that yes, one faction had more storyline than the other.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nize View Post
    I don't remember these bias topics popping out as much prior to Cataclysm despite the fact that yes, one faction had more storyline than the other.
    Well those compliants will probably always exist, but maybe in a lesser degree.......
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    People seriously need to stop treating Horde and Alliance as anything more than fiction. It is just a video game and the factions exist mostly as a game play mechanic and in video games mechanics trumps lore nearly every time. Want great storytelling that is well written? Go read a book. Stop trying to get best selling quality work out of a video game because it just flat out isn't going to happen.
    You clearly haven´t played games with a proper told story then - since what you say is a flat out lie. For a game within the genre of mmo (especially mmoRPG) you need the world to be carried, for the most extent, on the backstory and what goes on in the world now. Not just some bland told tale of "oh, and then they did this" or even expect people to go and buy a book telling the main points of why something is happening in the game (you can do that for side stories, and even then you ought to brief up on it in game). A game (depending on genre) is a mix of book and movie - you can even add the music in cases if you like. But don´t ever say its not possible to get best selling quality out of a game, since its plain being ignorant.
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