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  1. #1

    Horridon 10N Help

    After our second night on this boss our group is still having trouble even getting past the second door. I think we need to switch to 2 healers but the heals say they wouldn't be able to keep up with the damage going out. I can't post logs but our guild is Ale and Arms Tavern on Stormrage US Alliance, and my character is Bigwes a Prot pally. Let me know if there is any more info I can give out, thank you.


    Our raid comp is...
    2x Prot Pally
    Fury War
    Windwalker
    Frost Mage
    Demon Lock
    Feral Druid
    Holy Priest
    Resto Shaman
    Resto Druid

  2. #2
    Hello,

    First off, if you have any logs, that'd be greatly appreciated, because then we can actually see what's going wrong. (Edit sorry missed that in your post, i'll take a swift look. Edit again: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/254489/ but there's no logs of horridon unfortunately).

    Secondly, you probably should drop a healer. I know to the healers it seems insane, but they must also realize that more dps means there's less to heal as adds will die faster. That said, if they have so much to heal right now, healing's not the issue, but the raid as a whole has an issue. That said, make sure dps is where it needs to be. There's nothing wrong with going aoe fest, but make it controlled aoe; cleave your dots to secondary targets but always make sure the primary targets dies first.

    Door 1 is by far the easiest. Things your raid has to look out for however is sand traps. If people are standing in sand traps then there'll be a lot of damage. Healers can and should dispel the dot that gets cast on the raid. That's all for this door. Again: make sure people are not standing in stuff.

    Door 2 is actually one of the harder doors on normal in my personal opinion, mostly because a lot of raids have so much trouble getting their interrupts in order. Basically, if you do not have proper interrupting on this door, you're wiping yourself unless you have OP healers or OP gear. So that's really going to be the job of your dudes here, to interrupt in a set order. It's ok if you get 1, 2 Volleys through, but preferably no more than that. Healers should have their dispel on cooldown here. There's green shit on the floor and if there's a lot of damage going on here, that's probably because your entire raids get killed by volley dot while standing in puddles of crap. If you do this properly your 2 healers should be bored here.

    This pretty much goes for every door - dispel (there's doors with diseases and curses and yes your mage etc should help on that), and don't stand in frozen orb or totem, interrupt chains as you can, and there's no shame in popping hero on a particular cockblocky door either.

    Note that you do not need tankswaps and that you can even solo-tank this thanks to you being a prot paladin and clemency.

    Your raid may want to get the addon GTFO so they're discouraged to stand in crap.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-04-29 at 03:06 AM.

  3. #3
    Now, 2 or 3 healers there is no difference imo. Dps requirements are really low, but to do it with low numbers ur dpsers should always have the proper target being attacked. On 2nd door you want to have all your dpsers dps the first priest that comes, NOTHING ELSE. You should also have your priest go disc, and smiteheal/dps since holy is close to useless on this fight. If u can't kill the first priest that comes before the 2 that follow, and you have 5 dpsers it means that they do less than 50-60k dps, and you have no right to be in this instance, im sorry but if u cant kill a priest with 5 mil hp for 20 seconds, you should go to class guides and read how to play ur clases. Now if u managed to kill the first priest before the 2 have spawned, you will have the pair of priests join the fight. Put skull on one, have all dpsers be on it and have them interupt it, and meanwhile the tank can interupt the other target. At this point u will probably end up with 2 effusions, for which you will have 20 seconds untill they cast poison on the raid. Eighter have the ranged burn them down or aoe them, doesnt really matter, as they dont have more hp than non elite monsters that u kill while u quest.
    Nothing hard but all you need is ur dpsers to actually press butons instead of autoattacking.

  4. #4
    This is a 2 heal fight, its one of the most clearcut 2 heal fights in ToT. It might be possible to get away with 3 healers, it might also be possible to get away with 1. But since you're struggling you need to start doing the fight the optimal way and 2 heal it.

    Your priest also needs to be Disc, its a far better spec for Horridon, its a better spec overall and it fits better into your comp. If she doesn't want to then be aware that she's refusing to play the clearly superior specs, I know some priests are stubborn about that and its frustrating but it happens. Disc is just better.

    The fight is actually very simple. Interrupts, Dispels and not standing in stuff. If you can do all of those things and kill adds fast enough that they don't get out of control its easy. The trick is killing adds fast enough, hence the extra DPS and only 2 healers.


  5. #5
    Something you might try to help healers out is have tanks pull Horridon to the door opposite of where he is standing. (1=3, 2=4, 3=1, 4=2). Have 1 healer go with the tank and this makes it so that your raid won't have to worry at all about charge. This will remove all the double swipe damage your raid is taking and force the DPS to focus on adds. (your DPS is doing way more damage to horridon than they should be for it only being the first 2 doors)
    For your healer loadout have the resto druid symbiosis you for the extra cleanse and keep him around on doors 2 and 3. Resto Shaman could stay with the tank on doors 2&3, priest can take doors 1&4. This way you have 2 curse cleanses for door 4 as well as 2 disease cleanses for door 3.
    On door 3 make sure that your raid has as many pet creators as possible (SEF for your monk, treant for the druid, mirror images, imp swarm terror guard) so that the small adds will have more targets to swing on since they pick random targets.

    Hope this helps and GL.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    Something you might try to help healers out is have tanks pull Horridon to the door opposite of where he is standing. (1=3, 2=4, 3=1, 4=2). Have 1 healer go with the tank and this makes it so that your raid won't have to worry at all about charge. This will remove all the double swipe damage your raid is taking and force the DPS to focus on adds. (your DPS is doing way more damage to horridon than they should be for it only being the first 2 doors)
    For your healer loadout have the resto druid symbiosis you for the extra cleanse and keep him around on doors 2 and 3. Resto Shaman could stay with the tank on doors 2&3, priest can take doors 1&4. This way you have 2 curse cleanses for door 4 as well as 2 disease cleanses for door 3.
    On door 3 make sure that your raid has as many pet creators as possible (SEF for your monk, treant for the druid, mirror images, imp swarm terror guard) so that the small adds will have more targets to swing on since they pick random targets.

    Hope this helps and GL.
    Why would the raid ever take damage from charge? You'd have to be pretty braindead to stand in what is, on this fight, the most obvious of all the mechanics and the easiest to avoid.

    It doesn't seem worthwhile to split up your healers and prevent them from covering each other's backs as well as preventing one of them from dispelling just so you can hold your DPS's hands and baby them through the simplest mechanic there is.

    Edit: Just looked at the logs in the 2nd post. OP that's completely unacceptable of your raiders. DBM or Bigwigs should give you huge warnings in /say and otherwise when Horridon is charging you. For the people being charged to not move away is bad enough, but then other DPS are seeing this huge bulky dinosaur charge them and still being cleaved by not one but BOTH of his swipes... you're never gonna kill this or any boss if you don't force your DPS to wake up a little bit. There are some mechanics on this fight that are hard to notice at times and DPS might die to, this is not one of them.
    Last edited by RavenGage; 2013-04-29 at 09:05 AM.


  7. #7
    Well Raven if OP is coming into this post asking for help then it is obviously a problem and sometimes berating people for their level of skill doesn't magically fix the problem. If you have something other than telling his priest he HAS to spec disc, you haven't really added much to this thread and should move on.

    OT: Also having your fury war spec shockwave might be useful for this fight because the smaller adds can be stunned, though the big ones cannot be CC'ed at all.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    Well Raven if OP is coming into this post asking for help then it is obviously a problem and sometimes berating people for their level of skill doesn't magically fix the problem. If you have something other than telling his priest he HAS to spec disc, you haven't really added much to this thread and should move on.

    OT: Also having your fury war spec shockwave might be useful for this fight because the smaller adds can be stunned, though the big ones cannot be CC'ed at all.
    Though his wording wasn't really elegant, he does have a point though. The issue would be fixed if the raid would be more careful about its environments.

    Speaking of braindead, that's what I must have been when checking those logs and NOT seeing the ToT entry. I'm sorry for that. As a sidenote, it's midday now and I still haven't slept, so i'm not gonna venture forth in log dissecting at this point, something I'm not very proficient at even when I've not been awake for 30 hours. Still, I wanted to apologize for completely missing the logs in my first post.

  9. #9
    Looking at logs (longest attempt try 8)... the damage your raid is doing is shockingly low. The issue isn't dps, but higher dps would make it go smoother.

    Looking at the mage, he has 5% uptime on frost bomb, i really am unsure about mages frost bomb uptime, but 5% (14 seconds) makes me think it could be higher, could be wrong but we'll have to hear from a mage for this ^^.

    Same with lock, uptime on dots (corruption)

    Also your monk spent most of his time pressing one button, spinning crane kick, it is good aoe but i've got a feeling he's just being lazy with that though, he should be using (if not mistaken) rising sun kick as much as possible, it'll make anyone within range take 10% more damage. Also have him swap to the "jade ---" attack in his last tier, helpful aoe, makes spinning crane kick damage even higher too.

    Again DPS is not the issue, but its easy to raise it by having people watch their buffs / use abilities more often, and healers will be thankful.

    Now i see a lot of the raiders are taking tons of easy to avoid damage, e.g. out of the 3 dps i looked at about dps, 2 of them was standing in double charges and taking atleast 600k damage from it.
    Some also stood in living poison and Sand traps. These are all easy to avoid things and standing in it could be the cause of wipes, putting to much pressure on healers.

    The poison volley, have everyone nuke the venom priest first, tank can interrupt it easily. If a poison volleys gets through here, moan at the raid... Make them be more active as this one is easy to get.

    On the bit where 2 priests come down, have a melee dps assigned to the priest near the bosses tail, have him interrupt, and tank takes the one on the other side, interrupt both.. use dps cooldowns to burn them down if needed. If it really is impossible to get interrupts on these 2, use helpful cds after volleys such as tanks Devo auras, and have the boss tank dispel people with poison (and diseases on 3rd gate!).

    If everyone interrupts as much as possible and the boss tank helps with dispelling, it should go well. However saying this, if people still stand in avoidable damage, it dosen't matter how well the healers play, you probably will keep wiping.

  10. #10
    I am a strong advocate of the 'tank Horridon over at the other side of the room' strategy, and I think that it can help you in this fight. Yes, it's easy for someone to avoid a charge. However, having to think of avoiding charges at the same time as they're thinking about interrupts and dispels and getting out of goop is difficult for some people. Casters hate to move. If you tank Horridon away you remove half of the movement from this fight.

    I also see a lot more damage on Horridon than he needs to have. Every cleave or spell on the dinosaur is damage that isn't hitting the primary target.

    Another hint for the second door specifically is to mark the adds before the fight. Have someone go to that corner and pan their camera up, you can see the venom priests waiting in the stands. Mark the center one with a skull, another one with an X, the last one with a diamond or triangle or something. Tell the dps to focus skull, then X, then diamond. Assign your fury warrior to interrupt skull, your kitty to interrupt diamond, your windwalker will interrupt X. The skulled priest must be dead by the time the dinomancer drops; whoever you have on skull will be responsible for interrupting the dinomancer. Mix it around depending on who's more reliable. This means that it's not all dependant on your tank to do the interrupts. Getting the interrupts and focusing instead of AoE on this door makes a huge difference.

  11. #11
    You are dieing because you are basically taking damage from every avoidable source imaginable.

    Your longest attempt:
    First door
    - 3.8m dmg from sandtraps (move...)
    - 5m dmg from blazing sunlight (dispel)

    Second door
    - 6.5m from Venom bolt volley (interupt the priests casts as explained above)
    - 7.5m from rending charge (stun the mobs)

    3 things win you this fight
    - Killing the correct adds quickly
    - Moving from shit
    - Interupts

    Take each door and focus on the mechanics. It's a fight where you progress door by door but you do it by interupting / killing the damgerous mobs first.

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    without logs, if your healers are saying that there is excessive damage before door two there are only three things it can be.


    interupt/dispells not happening

    people standing in things they should not

    bad healers


    I would tend to narrow that down to two things because even bad healers should not be complaining till phase two if everyone else in the group is geared properly and not screwing up.


    our first horridon kill included one of the healers being disc and only 460 ilvl, so mechanics is king.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  13. #13
    A side question. What would be the best way to make sure people don't make the same mistake over and over. Im main tank and my guild doesn't really have a raid leader, we just all give input when needed. I don't want to get angry at the friends I raid with but it is very frustrating when the stand in stuff and die to the same things over and over. We only raid 2 nights for a total of 5 hours so I want to make the best of it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    Well Raven if OP is coming into this post asking for help then it is obviously a problem and sometimes berating people for their level of skill doesn't magically fix the problem. If you have something other than telling his priest he HAS to spec disc, you haven't really added much to this thread and should move on.
    If you wanna defend your strat then defend it, critiquing me doesn't validate what you said.

    Changing to Disc and 2 healing are both standard practices for this fight. I might not have been nice in the way I said it but its legitimate advice. So is not standing in the double cleave and I wanted to really emphasize how important that was.

    With that said you still didn't explain to me why its worth it to split your healers up and to lose on any potential between-door DPS by tanking the boss far away. Maybe I'm giving the charge less credit than it deserves but I have my DBM configured to announce in a /say bubble when someone is charged so it truly is the most visible and easy mechanic. Frozen orbs, sandtraps, totems, etc I can understand missing but I don't understand how one misses a charge.

    Maybe you gain some DPS by not having to move? Is that the big benefit? If that's the case then I suppose it might help, add DPS is more important than boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by thewgcs View Post
    A side question. What would be the best way to make sure people don't make the same mistake over and over. Im main tank and my guild doesn't really have a raid leader, we just all give input when needed. I don't want to get angry at the friends I raid with but it is very frustrating when the stand in stuff and die to the same things over and over. We only raid 2 nights for a total of 5 hours so I want to make the best of it.
    That depends on your raiders, you know them better than I do. I would guess a mixture of harsh truth and polite delivery would do it but at the end of the day it comes down to priorities, yours and theirs. I highly doubt that they're all so naturally bad that they would stand in all those abilities and not interrupt while trying their hardest. Talk to them and explain what's wrong - in this case what's wrong is your raid is being hit by avoidable damage a LOT and dispels/interrupts aren't good enough. Then all of you combined need to make the effort to make that better.

    Like I said earlier, the fight is at its core simple. Its don't stand in stuff and interrupt/dispel. All the advice people can give you might make that slightly easier to accomplish but the concept is the same, until your raid as a whole adjusts to it it'll keep wiping. Your biggest chance of success is to emphasize positioning and interrupts/dispels.


  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    Well Raven if OP is coming into this post asking for help then it is obviously a problem and sometimes berating people for their level of skill doesn't magically fix the problem. If you have something other than telling his priest he HAS to spec disc, you haven't really added much to this thread and should move on.
    The thing is,Raven's right. The OP's raiders are failing at basic raid awareness and mechanics and no amount of guidance will help them until and unless they fix that. With the latest round of nerfs, this is very doable fight for a properly geared and competent group. If you're significantly under 500 as a raid it will be harder to kill adds fast enough. Once your raid is averaging an ilevel of 500 or so and presuming your dps are competent at the classes, that's no longer an issue.

    However, even if you're 500+ but you stand in bad things that DBM/BW is screaming at you to get out of, you will die. Period. The easiest thing to fix for a raid like this is 'stop standing in bad things'. If the raiders don't have DBM, Bigwigs, GTFO etc then download and install one of those. Don't accept "But I don't LIIIKKE addons". That's fine when soloing, but if someon regularly dies to standing in bad stuff and refuses to use an addon to help them with awareness they're now wasting other peoples' time. That's rude.

    I use DBM and out of the box it will tell you you're too close to each of the bad things for each door and will tell you who charge is on and when Double Swipe is being cast. If the raiders DO have those warnings and are ignoring them the rest of the tactics won't help.

    This is a straightforward fight now. Get 500+ gear overall. Once you have that:

    1) Kill the elite adds first. Ignore DPS on horridon aside from dots if they help you proc other abilities and when moving from door to door
    2) interrupt as many of their casts as possible.
    3) If one gets a cast off, dispell it off the affected players.
    4) Don't stand in bad things (Sand trap, poison pools, frozen orbs, etc)
    5) Run toward the tank when you get Charge on you so you aren't aiming Horridon and his Double Swipe at people.
    6) If you're in Double swipe, move out of it.

    Rinse and repeat

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 01:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by thewgcs View Post
    A side question. What would be the best way to make sure people don't make the same mistake over and over.
    Make sure they have DBM or a similar "hey dipshit, you're in fire, you might want to move" addon. Aside from people being actively bad, the biggest reason for them dying to stuff on the ground is tunneling on the mobs and not noticing that they're IN bad stuff. An addon that tells them that they are should be fine. If they refuse to move out of things and die, make them understand that getting one more cast off isn't important if they're dead as dead dps = zero dps. Ultimately, if they ignore warnings and keep dying you either need to bench them or accept that you'll never progress in ToT because it's simply not a raid where you can take a lot of avoidable damage and win. The things that hurt you usually hurt you bad enough that they'll kill you in short order. Yes, a healer can pull you through a couple of ticks of bad things... but not if you keep standing there.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-04-29 at 08:43 PM.

  16. #16
    Alright I got a way better understanding of what to do now. Thanks to everyone who responded and helped out.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by thewgcs View Post
    A side question. What would be the best way to make sure people don't make the same mistake over and over. Im main tank and my guild doesn't really have a raid leader, we just all give input when needed. I don't want to get angry at the friends I raid with but it is very frustrating when the stand in stuff and die to the same things over and over. We only raid 2 nights for a total of 5 hours so I want to make the best of it.
    There's no need to be angry. Contrary to popular belief it is not at all needed to rage in a raid to make stuff happen.

    Having no raidleader is, however, probably one of your issues. A raidleader is there to motivate, to pick up the raid after a wipe, to locate problems and to solve them and to praise when someone did something right or exceptionally well. It coordinates the raid in the cooperation you need to kill something. Seeing as you're the tank, and you came here for advice, I assume you must have a minimum of leadership position within your raids even though you don't realize it yet. Anyway, it's probably a good time to pick up a minimum of leading.

    Mostly, people know what to do. People know very well that standing in crap is not a good thing. They're not standing in it because they enjoy it. When I was taking a break from serious raiding and had some fun with a bunch of extremely casual people, I ended up raidleading because of, well, my experience, and in the end what that came down to was, really, reminding everyone of their jobs.

    In short, people who aren't really great players or not very experienced tend to make a lot of mistakes, because, well, they're so focused on either the new boss they forget to do dps, or they're so focused on their dps they forget to take in their environments, and this in varying degrees. What helps most in those guilds and raids is to snap people back to reality at crucial moments. Remind everyone what's happening and what should be happening and who will make it happen. For example:

    You pull the boss. You move him to the door. Remind everyone that adds are incoming now and that they must start dotting them, or even killing them. The first sand guy spawns, say it's there and all dps switch to him and "watch the sand on the floor now guys, watch where you step, watch it, nuke it down" (which is what I'd say in that guild cause if I'd say "watch it" some people would drop everything they were doing, like dps, and move around trying to dodge something that maybe wasn't even here yet, so I'd add "nuke it down" to make sure they pick up their dps again xD Snap them back to reality, again and again.), you know, just encourage them along the right course of action.

    And this for the whole fight. First venom priest comes in, "make sure to nuke it down and don't forget Mike you're the first on interrupting this volley", "watch the poison guys, there's 2 new venom priests incoming, don't forget the interrupts. Nuke skull, watch the pools!".

    Please note I do not mean to sound condescending about the level of your players. The truth of the matter is that a LOT of people, in vast the VAST majority of players I meet, will need the guidance as described above to perform adequately. And that's totally fine. There's nothing wrong with that. People who play 10 hours a day, well, naturally, their class will come to them instinctively and they'll have much more time and have more experience anyway to pay attention to boss mechanics. Players who play 4 hours a week, well, that just isn't a realistic expectation.

    I hope that helped you somewhat. I had great fun in my very casual guild. I'd actually love to join one again. It's immensely relaxing to raid like that.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninotchka View Post
    I am a strong advocate of the 'tank Horridon over at the other side of the room' strategy, and I think that it can help you in this fight. Yes, it's easy for someone to avoid a charge. However, having to think of avoiding charges at the same time as they're thinking about interrupts and dispels and getting out of goop is difficult for some people. Casters hate to move. If you tank Horridon away you remove half of the movement from this fight.
    I'm not familiar with this strategy and while we're on the big bird I'd like to know about it for the other raid in our guild. Do you actually--literally--go across the room with a healer? And this doesn't screw up doors?

  19. #19
    From a healing perspective 2 healing it is significantly easier in my opinion, though we did 3 heal it this week. Resto Druid/Disc Priest for 2 healing it, and Resto Druid/Disc Priest/MW Monk when we 3 healed it. Disc Priests are absurdly broken because of the +damage on Horridon, makes Atonement insane (in fact this week the Disc Priest did more Atonement healing than I did overall healing on my Druid, not counting all his other skills).

    The biggest things are on the first door there shouldn't be very much damage at all, if there is people are doing something wrong. In fact I usually finish healing the first door with 90% or more mana, which regenerates to 100% by the second door, without using any cooldowns at all. It helps to have your Priest Mass Dispel the DoT that gets put on 3 people, though I guess if you 3 heal it that isn't really necessary, but still the fastest way to do it. Then just make sure to avoid Sand Traps and there's really no damage going out in that phase.

    The second door was hard for my group for a while until people learned where their interrupt button was, it's very important that the Venom Priests get interrupted, we usually only have 2 casts go through (though really we shouldn't have any, but you know, interrupting is hard), and that's manageable. Any more than that and that door is going to be painful, the Poison plus the bleed can kill people quickly if the poison is stacked too high. Usually I dispel people that have the bleed dot on them first, because as long as they don't have the bleed on them the poison won't kill anyone by itself, even at 4 stacks. Again though, interrupts make that door 100 times easier, so make sure your Warrior, Feral, and Windwalker doing that.

    Third door is also a mess, though that's because we only have 1 Disease dispel usually, but just Lust on that door and it isn't too bad once people learn to stay away from the orbs. And the fourth door is also very easy, as long as people aren't standing in lightning totems. After the fourth door the boss is pretty dead as long as both tanks and at least 1 healer is alive, there isn't really a very significant amount of damage going out in the last part.

    As for tanking the boss on the other side of the room I see no reason to do that, seems like it would just be annoying, it's incredibly easy to dodge his charge AoE, and if people can't they should probably just be removed from the group. We usually just tank Horridon right next to the door, with his tail facing the door and his head facing the middle of the room.

  20. #20
    With the nerf to 10 man normal to the adds hp you really shouldn't NEED to 2 heal this fight.

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