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  1. #21
    Problem is most pug tanks waaaaaaaaay underestimate what is "safe" for them to pull (or they just don't understand how to AoE tank), and that is frustrating. You pull 2 mobs at a time and you can damn well bet I'm going to MD the next pack onto you....

    This is mostly why I stay away from random heroic pug's. Being in 520+ gear, if I'm in a heroic, I basically never want to stop moving unless the dungeon has some roleplay/event that prevents you from moving forward. Fortunately our raid MT usually likes to pull as fast as is possible when we do heroic dungeons. TBH it can make heroics much more fun, as there can occasionally actually be some danger to it.

  2. #22
    Dreadlord Elapo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nario64 View Post
    sometimes pulling a group slightly before the tank gets there but it's not like he wasn't going to pull them in 2 seconds anyways
    I'm leveling a tank. I would've kicked you.

    It's MY job to pull, MY job to keep all the mobs on me. I'm also keeping an eye on the healer's mana, and I might want to pull more careful if a pack contains certain mobs (specific example - Scarlet halls, the last 2 packs of mobs- I'm a warrior, so I charge the scholars to be able to interrupt. If they're ninja pulled, I might have a problem finding them between the nameplates). I appreciate your help with MD, but let me do the pulling. Do those 2 seconds really matter that much?

    Not only that, but a lot of hunters do the same WITHOUT MD. That's just plain annoying. Most tanks won't see you've misdirected, the only thing they see is arrows flying past. Enough reason for them to kick you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiralphoenix View Post
    Problem is most pug tanks waaaaaaaaay underestimate what is "safe" for them to pull (or they just don't understand how to AoE tank), and that is frustrating. You pull 2 mobs at a time and you can damn well bet I'm going to MD the next pack onto you....
    Can't blame them. They're teamed up with a healer they've never met before most of the time.

    Though the opposite exists too, tanks who think they're pretty awesome but require spam healing to keep up. As a healer, I'd rather have a careful one.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nario64 View Post

    My last group I was playing like the good old days, perfect dps rotations, MD'ing the tank on every pull, sometimes pulling a group slightly before the tank gets there but it's not like he wasn't going to pull them in 2 seconds anyways. I don't pull anything that wasn't expected to be pulled but I'm guessing because I'm taking the actual pull away from the tank that he got butt-hurt?
    Don't do this and you wont get kicked. Unless you know the Tank, healers and the DPS will kick you. You seem to know the class well but its the 'huntard' disease every hunter has associated with them, due to so many poor hunters. When pulling the other party is assuming you are one of the 'huntards' without thinking twice, which in most cases it is.

    To not get kicked:

    - Don't pull
    - Message the tank and let him know what you are going to do at the beginning of the instance or tell the entire party
    - If number 2 doesn't work, stick to number 1
    - Nom Nom

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    I do this as well. But sometimes you run into scumbag tanks who think they are actually beneficial to the group. Newsflash, my damn pet can tank 5mans. Which ive had to do twice because of diva's leaving.

    Im awaiting the day that Blizzard says "fuck it" and just adds npc tanks, effectively getting rid of divas and long ass queues once and for all.
    I have been in a few groups where the tank got a little above himself. But it's a tough call to make. In 5 mans, Tanks are expected to set the pace, lead the group, know the fight mechanics and normally have the least amount of room to make mistakes. If I die as a DPS because I stood in fire, no one cares. If the tank dies in fire, then most likely the whole group is in trouble.

    So tanks get very little learning time without getting nagged to death by everyone else for every little mistake they make, and they, like healers, know they can instant que right back into a new instances. So you get some on power trips and some that are tired of everyone else wanting to call all the shots, but don't want to tank either.

    If only all 5 people wanted to work together, instead of focusing on proving how awesome they are.

  5. #25
    Whenever I do heroic 5mans, you can just glance over the gear of the rest in your group and if most out-gear it (especially the tank), I feel free to MD pull to tanks.
    It makes for faster runs if you don't overkill the pulls all the time, and just pay attention to if your group is keeping up (mana, spam-healing, etc.)
    I'd prefer a tank that pulls faster than me so we can just keep running at a good pace through the entire dungeon.

    Of course, if the hunter keeps pulling stuff all the time and the healer need mana or the tank almost dies all the time, I would kick him myself.
    But most cases, for me at least, I never encounter tanks who are butt-hurt about it when I do it.
    I also don't mind when hunters do it for me when I'm the tank.

  6. #26
    Moderator Rivelle's Avatar
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    A lot of tanks are infuriated by other people pulling for them since they're the only ones who know if they're ready or not. I wouldn't even dream of pulling for a tank unless it had been communicated beforehand that it was okay to do so.

    It's not a mystery to me at all why you got kicked.

    I'm also kind of surprised you're finding tanks that are moving too slow for you. Most of my characters are healers and if anything, I found most tanks pulled very quickly with absolutely no regard for the rest of the group or the healer or the healer's mana.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivelle View Post
    A lot of tanks are infuriated by other people pulling for them since they're the only ones who know if they're ready or not. I wouldn't even dream of pulling for a tank unless it had been communicated beforehand that it was okay to do so.

    It's not a mystery to me at all why you got kicked.

    I'm also kind of surprised you're finding tanks that are moving too slow for you. Most of my characters are healers and if anything, I found most tanks pulled very quickly with absolutely no regard for the rest of the group or the healer or the healer's mana.
    I tend to set the healer as my focus so I can quickly peek at their mana. If they're good, I tend to chain pull like nuts. I've had dps ask me to slow down, (mana-using dps, mind you) though.

    Regardless, the easiest way to avoid issues is just to let the tank pull. As a tank I do everything in my power to make everyone's job easier - so don't be an ass who makes mine more difficult, and we'll get along swimmingly.

  8. #28
    Galileo.

    If you were watching group damage intake, healer mana and response ability, and know the mobs you're pulling you're fine. Really thats all you need to be careful when pulling mobs is that you know you wont overstress your healer. Granted some healers will VJJ up just on the principal that a dps pulled. And I can assure you 100% if you play to your classes potential even if it benefits the group, there will be people who cant adapt and will want to kick you.

    Its a matter of preference, if you dont want to take that risk- then stand in back wait for tank to pull stuff and turret on them.

    Its the tank's job to pull, its the tank's job to keep the group moving at their best potential pace. If the tank isnt doing his job, then you're completely within your right to 'help'. And while you will find mentally inflexible people that will aggro on you for 'playing outside your role' you might be surprised how many good players will cheer you on for helping keep the group moving at a good pace. In leveling my latest character, mistweaver monk, (all dungeons lol) Ive found maybe 1 in 5 tanks are capable of playing at a good level. 2 in 5 are good enough, not winning any pace awards. and the other 2 in 5 are horrible, slow and should be hit by a truck.

    Often with those tanks Id have to ninja pull with provoke to keep the groups moving. It was actually kind of a perfect system, because noone would see who pulled and of course they're running after the healer, healing aggro!

    Good dps would tend to notice what was going on alot of the time and started pulling for me, I had a lot of dps tanks, and in that same time saw so many tanks qq and pout in the back about dps pulling.

    As a healer if people pull alot I dont get the privvy of standing in the back and watching everyone die crying about how I would have to heal too much. Likewise, if someone is going to play tank they need to nut up and tank better.

    Its rough, in vanilla and BC minus BC prot paladins, it was blatantly obvious if a tank was good or bad.(ussually because they tanked one mob, and the healer tanked the rest..) They would get berated and kicked because the group didnt want to wipe repeatedly. They would earn a reputation on their server and eventually have to give up tanking to suck at another role.

    With the post BC tank nerf... eh.. rape.. to skill, and cross realm anonymity now theres just crappy tanks everywhere. And while they may not cause you to die and run back, they're still costing you the same valuable asset as crappy tanks of old: your time.

    So pick a side, play mediocre, get used to slow runs and slowly give up on life. Or play to the best of your ability. When you get crappy slow tanks help your group out by forcing him to pull faster. Youll have the gratitude of good players everywhere. You will get kicked by crappy players as well, so thats a matter of personal preference. Personally, If I ever get kicked for playing too well I say good riddance.

    I didnt sign up to babysit. : )

  9. #29
    I'd votekick you too. Let the tank pull.

  10. #30
    I have a dk alt and I hate whenever people pull stuff. I'd just wait til he's like right inside the mobs to md, that way they feel like they pulled them even though you helped. Also hunters are really good for 5 mans. Good aoe and good burst, I wouldn't kick one unless if they were really annoying me.

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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziphr View Post
    So pick a side, play mediocre, get used to slow runs and slowly give up on life. Or play to the best of your ability. When you get crappy slow tanks help your group out by forcing him to pull faster. Youll have the gratitude of good players everywhere. You will get kicked by crappy players as well, so thats a matter of personal preference. Personally, If I ever get kicked for playing too well I say good riddance.

    I didnt sign up to babysit. : )
    I'd rather play with 4 of the slowest, lowest-dps people in WoW than a person with a viewpoint as self-centered and retarded as yours.

    When you "sign up" for an instance you are signing up to be part of a group. It isn't about just you, it does not begin with you and it certainly does not end with you. If you can't handle that, do dungeons with your friends or guildies, and spare the rest of us your asinine way of thinking.

    The moment you try and 'force' me to pull faster is the moment I 'force' you back into your long-ass dps queue.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'd rather play with 4 of the slowest, lowest-dps people in WoW than a person with a viewpoint as self-centered and retarded as yours.

    When you "sign up" for an instance you are signing up to be part of a group. It isn't about just you, it does not begin with you and it certainly does not end with you. If you can't handle that, do dungeons with your friends or guildies, and spare the rest of us your asinine way of thinking.

    The moment you try and 'force' me to pull faster is the moment I 'force' you back into your long-ass dps queue.
    I wouldn't.

    I'd rather have a fairly fast-paced run with some challenge than a slow group.
    You help the group if you do it correctly by making it more effective. If the hunter just pulls everything when no one is prepared, and causing a wipe is a different thing, of course.
    Honestly I'd rather kick a slow tank than someone who makes the run effective and not just a tedious run through the same dungeon everyone's done so many times.
    When people slack, they hold back the rest of the group anyway.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'd rather play with 4 of the slowest, lowest-dps people in WoW than a person with a viewpoint as self-centered and retarded as yours.

    When you "sign up" for an instance you are signing up to be part of a group. It isn't about just you, it does not begin with you and it certainly does not end with you. If you can't handle that, do dungeons with your friends or guildies, and spare the rest of us your asinine way of thinking.

    The moment you try and 'force' me to pull faster is the moment I 'force' you back into your long-ass dps queue.
    You don't actually get to "force" anyone into a long assed queue. You can initiate a vote kick, but that doesn't guarantee you're going to win it. And while you yourself may pull quickly, I've run into many tanks that pulled slowly because they were too busy doing "other" stuff while in the dungeon instead of actually playing the game. This just ends up wasting 4 other people's times but hey, the tank doesn't care they can insta-que later right?

    To the OP: it's generally better to wait for the tank to pull. The more experienced or geared tanks tend to pull larger packs and this gives them time to get their abilities prepped (my alt is a prot paladin and I've got a good handle on this). MD is always a good idea on a large pack as usually some dps will target something other than the tank's target.

    And for those that don't know, a dungeon in-progress will get a new tank much more quickly than a dungeon that's just forming.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    I'd votekick you too. Let the tank pull.
    I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what the OP was doing, or he was in fact pulling. I dont consider having MD on the tank and multishotting a group of mobs onto him right as he arrives on them pulling., and it doesnt pull more than the tank would have by himself The OP probably hit them earlier than that though since the group recognized how early he was hitting everything.

    Everyone agrees that you shouldnt run ahead and pull stuff to the tank while hes tanking other mobs or just standing around waiting for whatever. Ive done it though, mostly because of impatience on extremely slow tanks and wouldnt care if I was kicked because it would be faster to requeue and do a whole new dungeon. But if all youre doing is MD'ing mobs that were going to be pulled in less than a second the only problem is the tank's pride that he thinks somehow that he doesnt need help or he should be first to hit anything.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what the OP was doing, or he was in fact pulling. I dont consider having MD on the tank and multishotting a group of mobs onto him right as he arrives on them pulling., and it doesnt pull more than the tank would have by himself The OP probably hit them earlier than that though since the group recognized how early he was hitting everything.
    But it IS pulling and it's pulling when the tank might not want to. What you and others fail to understand is that the hunter is dictating when mobs get aggroed but it's not the hunter's responsibility to keep aggro. It's the tank's. Some tanks use certian abilities to build threat, want to get initial aggro on certain mobs, might want to wait a few seconds to have an ability off CD. It's presumptuous for someone else to effectively say "Fuck what you want, I want you to pull now" and MD mobs to the tank.

    Again, LET THE TANK PULL. I've played since late Vanilla and it's always been considered rude and out of place for DPS to pull mobs. The tank's the person who has responsibilty for getting and keeping aggro. DPS? Your job is to kill shit that the tank has pulled.Seriously, if the few seconds you're saving are that important to your life, log out.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-04-29 at 08:00 PM.

  16. #36
    The Patient Nario64's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treelife View Post
    Also, no offence intended OP, but chances are you're not doing a "perfect DPS rotation". The fact you said rotation is a big part of that. >.>
    I know it's a priority, and I know it fairly well... or at least I did. I was really good in Wrath and early Cata. What I mean is usually these days I don't give a crap if I don't use my ES procs because things die anyways, I just meant it as I was "in the zone" doing as much dps as I figured I could. (which was probably still hindered due to the fact that while leveling I where Rocket Boots Xtreme)

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 01:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Prokne View Post
    I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what the OP was doing, or he was in fact pulling. I dont consider having MD on the tank and multishotting a group of mobs onto him right as he arrives on them pulling., and it doesnt pull more than the tank would have by himself The OP probably hit them earlier than that though since the group recognized how early he was hitting everything.
    On that one group I was setting up for as mentioned, I pulled as soon as I started seeing the tank run in. Long enough in advance that the mobs would walk through my trap, but not before the tank was already headed in that direction. (we all stood around for about 20 seconds waiting for everyone to catch up, him moving forward was definately the hint to go)

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post

    And yeah, it isn't your place to pull for the tank unless the tank says 'hey, MD those to me' or something. Imagine you're sitting somewhere, eating, and someone runs over and shoves more food in your mouth as if to say 'HEY HERE EAT THIS TOO LOLZ' - that is pretty much what you're doing when you rush ahead and pull. Tanks consider many things when pulling - availability of spells, AOE cooldowns, healer's mana, damage taken, etc etc etc. You, as a hunter, are not in a position to speak for any of those on a tank's behalf. Your job is to kill what the tank pulls, not pull or otherwise try and dictate the pace/how much the tank should be doing/etc.
    I main a hunter and my primary raid alt is a DK tank, and I agree with this. I never MD anything I'm not asked to. When I'm tanking, nothing is more annoying than someone pulling when I don't have runes, or DnD isn't up, etc.

  18. #38
    I mean for me when I tank on my pally or my monk, if the hunter MD's to me and pulls anything.... or everything I don't mind. I like getting things done fast. But a lot of people out there are don't put up with that stuff, most tanks want to move at there own pace.

    All I can say if if you're not the tank, then follow! Don't try to lead. Unless they ask you to lead. If you know what I'm saying.

  19. #39
    Legendary! Asmekiel's Avatar
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    Since when is this a problem.. If I notice the tank can handle things, I usually MD the left side of rooms to him when he gets the pack at the right side.(or the other way around) Whole runs without saying a word, never had a problem, I even got thanked a few times for doing that.

  20. #40
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    IDK, as someone who played a hybrid class before (spriest with a disc offspec), it seems like the hunters who want to MD pull everything want the best of both worlds: they want none of the responsibility of being a tank/healer, but they want to still be important or OP or lead the group at their own pace.

    This game has roles, and the tank role sets the pace of the dungeon. It's something you have to learn to live with. You wouldn't have gotten away with this in TBC, ever, when heroics were hard, so don't do it now. It's just simple etiquette.

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