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  1. #181
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    Every tank should have a raid CD to some extent or bring something that benefits the raid. Monks have avert harm and guard. Warriors have banners and rallying cry. Paladins have devotion aura and hand spells. Druids and DKs really don't have anything beneficial at all. AMZ really isn't that great and blood worms are just over healing machines. Druids have tranquility but it's only really good with HoTW popped and in a lot of scenarios it's very impractical to cast.

    Buffing tank utility really doesn't imbalance the game either because you only bring upwards of two tanks (rarely three) to any encounter anyway. Nobody is ever going to stack tanks. Making tranquility easier to use for guardian druids, giving them another minor raid CD would go a long way. Buffing AMZ for blood, making vampiric blood raid wide and/or giving DKs a bit more control of blood worms (or making them smarter) would help as well.

    They also need to look at tanking stats in general. Prot Paladins gear mostly like a Ret Paladin and Monks/Druids actual get benefits from critical strike as far as raiding goes. Haste is still a good stat for Blood DKs but DPS stats are far less attractive for Protection Warriors/Blood DKs. Obviously this isn't something they can fix this expansion but I hope that they can eventually just get rid of dodge/parry on gear and make crit/haste attractive for all tanking specs. It's much more enjoyable to gear that way if you can get away with it because going pure dodge/parry is boring (and generally wrong).

  2. #182
    Is it just me or is the raidhealing done by a monk tank a lot better than a paladin already? Not sure about numbers since it's hard to check our logs for fights where we get similar vengeance, but in general a 200k or so smart absorb on lowest hp member that lasts for a whopping 30 seconds seems better than a stream of 7k (not sure about numbers here tbf) stream of hps going out.
    For example on our megaera kill last week my raid guards did 4.35M healing (0% overheal) and our prot pala's glyph of battle healer did 2M healing (44% overheal).

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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Xucuroz View Post
    Problem with that is, your comparing an ability a paladin has to spec for (talent choice), to an ability blood dks get baseline. Maybe that's fair. But then maybe all tanks should get abilities or talents similar to gor fiends grasp, or remorseless winter (for example). Sure they might not be much use this current tier of raiding, but you never know when or what boss fight they might be useful. Which seems to be what most people forget in this topic.
    True enough on the comparison, so I went and took our prot pallies battle healer numbers. It ended up at 40% overheal while doing 4x the effective healing my worms did. Going by the same example, glyphed Blinding light, leg sweep, shockwave, and mighty bash are all superior stuns to the 5 sec delayed one that is remorseless winter. Gorefiend's can be ok utility (our DPS DK uses it in Tortos to help our pally bat tank), but then the argument becomes why not take a DPS DK with better damage and the same AMZ/Gorefiend's utility and let your paladin single tank the encounter?

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    Absorbs are always better than raw healing when its random. Overheal becomes non-existent
    Last edited by matthias9742; 2013-05-01 at 11:59 PM.

  4. #184
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    When a Prot Pali is highest on Dps as well as Hps, there is a problem imo. Not like we have all fail dps or healers, just our Prot is amazing and kicks butt.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    If you put it that way you could do that whith every class. I could just put druid in front of your stuff change cds, and say tell me one bad thing about beeing druid.
    One bad thing i can tell you right now, aoe tanking paladins are very weak compared to a druid dk or monk.

    And why would you bring another class.

    Warrior for your raid is the strongest dps tankclass, if you dont have another warrior.
    Druid if you want a class with lots of add control, aoe speed buff, amour debuff. strong raidcooldown.


    -Mitigation all tanks are on almost identical, some are stonger on this fight some on others.
    -DPS druid monks and pala are strong here the other seem to be a bit behing.
    -Selfheal, on fights like leishi or stone quard heroic, where you just use FR as a druid he will outheal any other class, the only one getting close to that will be a very high vengeance pala. And pala and dks take dmg and absorb or heal it, of course they have high self heal.
    -Raidbuffs. pala can buff 1 of his 2, as a druid you buff 2 (stats+crit), warrior 2 buffs(ap or hp), monk(i believe it was one,crit is only buffed by WW), dk 1 buff, so druid are best in this part. pala just equal to the other tanks.
    -Raidcooldown: Druids HotW+Tranq strongest healcd in 10m. Warrior 10% reduced dmg from any kind, hp shout ( its not crappy at all, EH on the entire raid is still stronger than any healcd). monk has two raidcds. one negates 5 cast on raidmembers one take dmg from the raid and gives it to the monk. paladin have auramastery which is completely useless on physical encounters, and hammer of light which is on par with the other cooldowns, it scales good it has a low cooldown, but the strongest part of this cooldown, it heals everybody inside the aoe not jsut 3-6 people or lowers the heal if more than 3 are in it it always the same, if you hav 5 or 10 inside of it.
    -ultiliy: Druid symbiosis, raidspeed, add control, BR. DK Aoe grip, single target grip. Warrior: high mobility, banners, lvl75 talents, shockwave stun every 20/40 seconds. Monk: high mobility, best kite tank, glyphed firebreath, cooldown beast (almost every button you press as a BM gives you a bonus to your mitigation)

    why i would bring any other class over a paladin.
    1) the other tank is a better player.
    2) you want another tank for your setup, due to lack of raidcd/buff/debuff.
    3) maybe you would want a better offtank than pala (which they are also not the best at, monks and druids are alot stronger on that part)#
    4) you already have a healpala, that can bop/purity, has auramastery, hammer of light.
    5) you want a druid cause he is the only tank that has a range dps specc, for tanks you want to solotank maybe.
    6)Or jsut cause 70% of you raid could just be on the palatoken.


    There are so many reason to take any other class, i wanted a paladin in my raidgroup so i looked for one, cause i play a druid in 10m and pala druid team up really good in 10m.

    But, if a protpala is not as good as a warrior tank skillwise, the warrior tank will be better for any raid. Same goes for all the other classes.
    Are monk and paladins strong? yes they are.
    can you kill every current boss with any other tanksetup? yes
    going for heroic raids, you should atleast have 1 paladin, in your group. If not you will still be able to clear 13/13.

    Im not saying they arent the strongest tanking class. But just because some dont know all the other tanking classes or dont know how a paladin works doenst make paladin the strongest. Any good played dk druid warrior will help you get throught ToT easier than a midskilled paladin. Equally skilled paladin will make it easier, but not impossible for the other tanks to be on par in most situations.
    Part of what you're saying here is true, the part about non Paladin tanks still being able to clear 13/13. But trying to defend a clearly favored tanking class to any other like that is just lol.

    You're mentioning CR as something a Guardian brings..... Sure, but locks bring it too, so do every DK spec and BM hunters with a Quillen pet. Even Prot Paladins with Symbiosis gets a CR. The other tanking classes don't just magically gain a Lights Hammer, just like only Prot Paladins bring the AM. Your comparison is rather funny....

    Ofc there could be a lot of reasons why you would rather bring another tanking class, just as in your examples. But the same could be said about every single class/spec. If you assume equal skill/gear and a decent setup in terms of tokens, there would still not be a reason to bring another tanking class over a Prot Paladin.

    My own guild raids without a single fucking Paladin in the raid atm and that's not really much fun. No way of cheesing anything with a debuff, no solo tanking due to lol HoP but yes, we still clear Heroics. But that's not really the topic here. The topic is, whether or not Prot Paladins and imo Paladins in general are far too valuable in this Tier due to shit raid design.

    As I said in another post, Paladins are so damn good, mostly cause of shit raid design that heavily favors them over other tanking classes.

  6. #186
    Even Prot Paladins with Symbiosis gets a CR.
    Prot Paladins get a fairly pointless version of Barkskin from Symbiosis.
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  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Prot Paladins get a fairly pointless version of Barkskin from Symbiosis.
    A 1min cd with 10% dmg reduction, is quite nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    In fairness, I do feel druids can be a weaker tank. But stuff like Battle Healer, etc. does exist on other tanks in the form of Bloodworms, Statue Guard, Demo Banner, etc. Obviously each ability has advantages and disadvantages.

    I don't think Tranquility is that good (8 min CD I thought?) simply because you can't use it while tanking. But obviously it's usable on Lei Shen, and Symbiosis is just a great ability overall.

    If they gave Tranquility a monk treatment (Guardian only: cast-able while in Bear Form and can continue to dodge while casting) I think it would be a good buff, worth the trade-off of not being able to use other abilities while channeling, and not as broken in PvP since you can still be kicked.

    Also Light's Hammer is a level 90 talent, you're trading the control of Holy Prism (20 sec CD) and the single target damage in ES for it.
    I use HotW tranq on, jinrokh hc, megaera, primordius, iron qon. and have no problems at all using it. and i use it as a dps gain on durumu, ironqon, leishen. The rest of the fights i use NV which is alot weaker but lines up nicely with our incarnation and berserk, so if you use it its a small help for the healers.




    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Part of what you're saying here is true, the part about non Paladin tanks still being able to clear 13/13. But trying to defend a clearly favored tanking class to any other like that is just lol.

    You're mentioning CR as something a Guardian brings..... Sure, but locks bring it too, so do every DK spec and BM hunters with a Quillen pet. Even Prot Paladins with Symbiosis gets a CR. The other tanking classes don't just magically gain a Lights Hammer, just like only Prot Paladins bring the AM. Your comparison is rather funny....

    Ofc there could be a lot of reasons why you would rather bring another tanking class, just as in your examples. But the same could be said about every single class/spec. If you assume equal skill/gear and a decent setup in terms of tokens, there would still not be a reason to bring another tanking class over a Prot Paladin.

    My own guild raids without a single fucking Paladin in the raid atm and that's not really much fun. No way of cheesing anything with a debuff, no solo tanking due to lol HoP but yes, we still clear Heroics. But that's not really the topic here. The topic is, whether or not Prot Paladins and imo Paladins in general are far too valuable in this Tier due to shit raid design.

    As I said in another post, Paladins are so damn good, mostly cause of shit raid design that heavily favors them over other tanking classes.
    true what you say about CR.

    The one I responded to asked for reasons to take any other tank over a pala.

    You dont raid with a protpala or any pala, would you change your tanksetup and risk getting a less skilled tank?

    After our Protwarrior quit, I wanted a protpala and a warrior as dps. so we found a dps warrior quite fast, we search almost 4 weeks for a good protpala, We even sat on leishen for our first kill and didnt kill him with a protpala cause he wasnt as good, he fucked up alot, next week, we threeshot him, with our dps dk who is not a great tank either. next week we found our pala and it was easier, we killed jinrokh in like 12 trys with him.

    like you say paladins are favoured im not defending them because of that. Im just sick of people looking at logs/ recount, and not knowing what they see, than going to the forum and saying, wow paladins are so op. a few examples.

    One says wow our paladin is second in our healmeters. he is solotanking a fight, takes alot of dmg has alot of vengeance and his shield abosrbs for like 150-200k. druid take overall less dmg, so they dont have high automatic selfhealing like a paladin does. So what is worse of a druid dodges and takes no dmg or a pala takes a small hit and heals it back up.?

    WoW, raidhealing is so strong no other classes have that raidheal, I said HotW plus tranq is almost equal to paladins hammer, when you need one big cooldown HotW is ahead on some fight when you are stacked than hammer is superior. Then some people say you cant count HotW as a raidheal cooldown cause it messes around with their view paladins beeing the only one that are soo good at raidhealing, and argue it has 6 min cd.
    monks have high raidheals too plus they have absorbs, warriors also have EH cooldowns, that are in theory far better than heals.

    Dps monks and druids are ahead at same vengeance, aoe prot are lowest aoe class after the buffs for protwarriors, 2-3 mobs same here. that doenst mean they dont do aoe dmg just in theory other classes will do more.


    I cannot stress this out enough, paladins are the best tanks on this tier, everything any other class can do they can do it too, sometimes not as good in some situations. But looking at all 12 bosses (not counting raden here) nh or hc. paladins tanks win, even more if you dont have any other pala in your raid. But they are favoured not mandatory. and you can only say this when ignoring raidcomp and when you ignore skill lvl which has a much higher impact than the differences between tank.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-02 at 09:11 AM.

  8. #188
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    I use HotW tranq on, jinrokh hc, megaera, primordius, iron qon. and have no problems at all using it. and i use it as a dps gain on durumu, ironqon, leishen. The rest of the fights i use NV which is alot weaker but lines up nicely with our incarnation and berserk, so if you use it its a small help for the healers.
    Not saying HotW is useless

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    I cannot stress this out enough, paladins are the best tanks on this tier, everything any other class can do they can do it too, sometimes not as good in some situations. But looking at all 12 bosses (not counting raden here) nh or hc. paladins tanks win, even more if you dont have any other pala in your raid. But they are favoured not mandatory. and you can only say this when ignoring raidcomp and when you ignore skill lvl which has a much higher impact than the differences between tank.
    And I will say that rather than tossing arbitrary nerfs, one thing that might 1) help close the gap, and 2) improve versatility would be my suggestion, allowing Guardians to use Tranq while in Bear Form. Helps make druids, like the other tanks, more versatile in all situations including solo-tanking rather than mainly being seen as a "good offtank."


    In any case I think any tank "this versus that" has to be exaggerated somewhat just because tanks are probably the most balanced right now of all the roles, pretty much any tank comp has worked well in WF-pace progression. Definitely skill > class the most here, compared to healers and esp. DPS.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-05-02 at 09:14 AM.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaed View Post
    When a Prot Pali is highest on Dps as well as Hps, there is a problem imo. Not like we have all fail dps or healers, just our Prot is amazing and kicks butt.
    So do you think you palatank is just a really good player, or is everything you just the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    And I will say that rather than tossing arbitrary nerfs, one thing that might 1) help close the gap, and 2) improve versatility would be my suggestion, allowing Guardians to use Tranq while in Bear Form. Helps make druids, like the other tanks, more versatile in all situations including solo-tanking rather than mainly being seen as a "good offtank."


    In any case I think any tank "this versus that" has to be exaggerated somewhat just because tanks are probably the most balanced right now of all the roles, pretty much any tank comp has worked well in WF-pace progression. Definitely skill > class the most here, compared to healers and esp. DPS.
    Exactly, now look at the last 10 pages maybe 2-3 more person think that way, the others ignore everything you say.

    when i read through some posts they make it sound like a protpala can solotank and solo heal every hc encounter so you can take 1protpala and 9dps. If you take 2 protpalas you can even drop the dps.

    You can spam rejuv in bear, ok to be fair i used it once during all the mop raids. doing the same for HotW tranq would be awesome.still there might be a problem cause you need to equip the caster weapon, but ill like that. giving it to druids would be nice, and monks already have it.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post

    In any case I think any tank "this versus that" has to be exaggerated somewhat just because tanks are probably the most balanced right now of all the roles, pretty much any tank comp has worked well in WF-pace progression. Definitely skill > class the most here, compared to healers and esp. DPS.
    Completely denied. The rerolling has gone ridiculous. Truth be told, hybrid tanks need to pay their tax again. I don't see the point of getting a myriad of DPS talents and skills as a warrior (because it's what I share with fury/arms), just to get the same DPS (or less, as of now) as a hybrid tank, while they get the talents and skills of their healing spec, better DPS and better mitigation. By design they try to put the same DPS and mitigation, and on top of that, their hybrid skills. Someone need to be designed to be pay on DPS or mitigation what they gain on healing.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-05-02 at 10:09 AM.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaed View Post
    When a Prot Pali is highest on Dps as well as Hps, there is a problem imo. Not like we have all fail dps or healers, just our Prot is amazing and kicks butt.
    Probably is - if you can show that it happens constantly.

    I mean...do we have data to show that guilds can only progress with a Prot Paladin? From the top of my head it seems Method got their kills with a Prot warrior - so..unless some of you guys are spending hours on hours wading through the armory...where does this claim of OP-ness for Protadins come from?
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  12. #192
    Having a Prot Paladin, a Prot Warrior and a Brewmaster Monk at level 90, and having switched my main from the warrior to the paladin, Honestly I just wish they would get rid of dodge and parry. Make DK/Warriors Active Mitigation scale on dps secondary stats, just like Paladins/Monks/Druids, It would solve the tank dps disparity problems (or at least make them easier to balance) as well as making DK/Warrior more fun. Parry/Dodge as stats are boring and suboptimal stats to the point that nobody wants them. Warrior Mastery is good but boring as fuck.

    Give some kind of reliable self healing capability to warriors, a bit more raid utility to DKs (buffing AMZ could be a start), and there you are, problem solved.
    Druid problems are different and I don't know enough about them to say anything.

    Monks and Paladin just happen to be the two tanks who scale defensively on offensive secondary stats, without suffering from stupid design flaws like druids. And it's a way better design imo.

  13. #193
    Find it funny when people say "When prot paladins are above our dps in damage there is a problem", yeah, not like the other tanks are not doing the same thing on the same fights? It is called vengeance guys, all tanks have it.

    Also, I do not see any problem with tanks being above dps on dps on some fights, the fights are balanced for it, so do not see all the outrage with that. It is not like you can bring 7 tanks 3 healers on a fight and win.
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  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Completely denied. The rerolling has gone ridiculous. Truth be told, hybrid tanks need to pay their tax again. I don't see the point of getting a myriad of DPS talents and skills as a warrior (because it's what I share with fury/arms), just to get the same DPS (or less, as of now) as a hybrid tank, while they get the talents and skills of their healing spec, better DPS and better mitigation. By design they try to put the same DPS and mitigation, and on top of that, their hybrid skills. Someone need to be designed to be pay on DPS or mitigation what they gain on healing.
    How can you deny a fact that progress guilds all have different tankcomps?

    So 2set t15 is no selfheal, the lvl30 talents are no selfheal? your absorb shield is selfheal too which scales with vengeance and is really strong on alot of fights.
    Mitigation wise warriors are as good as any other class, maybe even stronger cause the mitgate more than pala and dk. If not what uptime on shieldblock do you have?
    Your banners are not raidcooldown / utility? taunt banner is unique from tank pov, skullbanner over a 10min fight is about as much worth as a bloodlust. Demobanner raidcd really strong, rallying cry more effective than paladins hammer, its about an 800-900k raidheal with no restriction on positioning during the 10seconds, plus it raises you hp so its an EH gain, it helps you to survive stuff.

    AoE Talents, one lowcd with stun that doesgood dmg, burst aoe with knockdown. and the other one which is good in some fights. all three are unique.

    Low cd aoe silence or ao slow. high mobility, one does dmg helps you aggro adds the other one can stun up to 2 targets.

    what about vigilance or safequard.

    Its not that paladins are better than warrior i just think you dont like your warrior or not know what he is actually doing or can do. And btw all tanks are hybrids, there is no pure tank class in the game.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-02 at 12:32 PM.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulbukh View Post
    Having a Prot Paladin, a Prot Warrior and a Brewmaster Monk at level 90, and having switched my main from the warrior to the paladin, Honestly I just wish they would get rid of dodge and parry. Make DK/Warriors Active Mitigation scale on dps secondary stats, just like Paladins/Monks/Druids, It would solve the tank dps disparity problems (or at least make them easier to balance) as well as making DK/Warrior more fun. Parry/Dodge as stats are boring and suboptimal stats to the point that nobody wants them. Warrior Mastery is good but boring as fuck.

    Give some kind of reliable self healing capability to warriors, a bit more raid utility to DKs (buffing AMZ could be a start), and there you are, problem solved.
    Druid problems are different and I don't know enough about them to say anything.

    Monks and Paladin just happen to be the two tanks who scale defensively on offensive secondary stats, without suffering from stupid design flaws like druids. And it's a way better design imo.
    Listen to this man ^

    This is exactly what needs to happen to fix tank parity, gearing issues, loot table bloat, play-style enjoyment, and a myriad of other issues that have cropped up this expansion. D/P gear is desired by NOBODY, and only clogs up the loot tables. They slather it all over tier gear as well, serving as a trap to under-experienced newcomers, and then wonder why "HAY how come ppl think our gear iz garbage?".

    DK AM is still fine overall, Pala is obviously fine-to-OP depending on who you ask. Leather AM is based on avoidance, which in theory and on paper is ok, usually falls behind a bit in practice due to RNG. Which leaves warriors: the quintessential block tank. Normally this would be great, except this tier has lots of high damage and unblockable/unavoidable attacks, which (along with the gearing issues above) cause quite an exacerbation of the discrepancy between war and pala tanks. Add to that the brilliant coding of removable debuffs this tier, and it really fans the flames of warrior vitriol versus protpaladins. Not saying it is unfounded, it is just a bad situation to be a warrior this tier looking at what paladins can do. Yet, still, top tier guilds can and do use warrior tanks; they have amazing utility, cooldowns and plenty of other benefits if you know where to look. If you DON'T know where to look, read the post above mine.

    Anyawy....Remove D/P. Leave innate dodge/parry scaling from AGI/STR respectively, since we all know Blizz loves to keep some element of randomness. Leave avoidance as part of AM systems, but not procs. This leaves 2 types of secondaries: Accuracy (hit/exp) and Power (mastery/crit/haste). All tanks (and DPS) already have accuracy caps that most strive for. Once reached, the tanks that scale well with "power" secondaries pile those on when possible, while the ones that do not are left with only dodge/parry to use.

    Pala - Hit @7.5, Exp @ 7.5-15 (preference), then Haste > Mast > Crit. Leave as is. Crit still pretty much worthless outside of DPS.
    Warrior - Hit/Exp to cap, then Mast > Crit > Haste. Leave mastery as is, but change crit to be their scaling. Allow crit rating to also increase crit block % (as well as mastery), and let crit attacks that provide rage now provide extra rage, like druids. Haste would still be their lowest priority, purely for DPS. Could even have a passive like "10/15/20% chance on melee critical to gain 5/10 rage" as part of the prot (or warrior) toolkit, which would help favor haste some.
    DK - Hit/exp to cap, then Mast > Haste > Crit. Mastery still the go-to here, but DK's should get more benefit from haste. I'd suggest upping the rune regen rate scaling for Blood by 100-200%, such that Haste becomes useful and noticeable for both throughput and mitigation. Like paladins, Crit remains low on their priority list serving only as a DPS increase.

    There. Now each tank scales with "DPS" stats, and we have cleared out a ton of unwanted and uninspired loot drops from already bloated tables. While you may now argue that there is increased competition for plate pieces in the raid with the absence of "tank loot", there is also absence of "tank loot" dropping which means more of the desired pieces in the first place. Additionally, each tank class prefers slightly different pieces/stats (AND! each of them are also very close to the stat priorty preference of their DPS specs as a bonus!) to help keep some of the unique feeling between classes.

    Oh, and get rid of Int plate too and make HPal use STR. 8-9 drops per tier for one spec of one class is dumb.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-02 at 12:38 PM.
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  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    How can you deny a fact that progress guilds all have different tankcomps?

    So 2set t15 is no selfheal, the lvl30 talents are no selfheal? your absorb shield is selfheal too which scales with vengeance and is really strong on alot of fights.
    Mitigation wise warriors are as good as any other class, maybe even stronger cause the mitgate more than pala and dk. If not what uptime on shieldblock do you have?
    Your banners not raidcooldown? taunt banner is unique from tank pov, skullbanner over a 10min fight is about as much worth as a bloodlust. Demobanner raidcd really strong, rallying cry more effective than paladins hammer, its about an 800-900k raidheal with no restriction on positioning during the 10seconds, plus it raises you hp so its an EH gain, it helps you to survive stuff.

    AoE Talents, one lowcd with stun that doesgood dmg, burst aoe with knockdown. and the other one which is good in some fights. all three are unique.

    Its not that paladins are better than warrior i just think you dont like your warrior or not know what he is actually doing or can do. And btw all tanks are hybrids, there is no pure tank class in the game.
    What I deny is that tanks are balanced, not that a nudget of guilds forego pals/monks. Taunt banner is there to cover low ranged aggro capabilities. Skullbanners can only be stacked up to a point where they lose effectiveness, but I think you have a point, since rogues and DKs are far more desirable than DPS warriors. Demobanner is not really strong, is one of the worst raid CDs, being not usable for certain types of damage and being 10% only. Rallying Cry is certainly not better, not only because it have a 3 min CD, but because it's only good for burst damage (that raid healing it's a loan, not healing, and don't get confused, I love it as it is).

    And that's forgetting passive healing, better dps and better mitigation, which is the point.

    We can discuss what hybrid mean if you want, but for tanks there are two kinds: the one which have a healing spec and the ones that don't. Use whatever word you want. Also, I love my warrior, and you would be very wrong if you think that I don't like it or I that I don't press it to the limit.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-05-02 at 12:46 PM.

  17. #197
    Prot Paladins are completely OP in 10man... but Blizzard doesnt care about 10man!

    Under 25man conditions the OP'ness of Disc Priests and Prot Paladins isn't that gamechanging... of course it's nice to have a Tank who does 60k HPS, but when you have something like 600k Raid-HPS with 5 Healer in 25man its not big of a difference. In 10man where you only have something like 200k Raid-HPS 60k HPS are incredibly good!
    When a Blood-DK is doing 100k DPS a Prot Paladin is doing 150k DPS... 50k DPS have a huge impact in 10man but in 25man it doesnt matter at all.

    Same goes for Disc Priests... 50k DPS is nice to have in 25man but again with something like 2,5mio Raid-DPS its not even noticeable, while it is a big difference of having a Disc Priest in 10man or not.

    In the end every 10man raid who wants to kill bosses fast NEEDS a Protpaladin and a Disc Priest! Are there any Lei Shen or Ra-Den kills without these 2 classes? I don't think so!

    And the thing that annoys me the most is, that Blizzard knows about it since over 4 months! Comparing a Protpaladin to a Blood-DK is a JOKE! Blood DK has zero Raid-CDs, is doing something like 25% less DPS, no raidhealing, same survivability singletarget and much worse survivability against many mobs.
    Raiding 10man without Disc Priest especially on 2-Healer fights is like fighting the Hard-Hardmode of the encounter without better loot.


    In the end i think blizzard wants to kill 10man raiding. First Thunderforge-Items, then the fact that 80% of heroic bosses are a joke on 25man after a few ids of TF-Items, the whole "bring the class not the player" concept for 10man raiding etc...
    I wonder if they are really so stupid that they thought that 10man guilds would switch to 25man... in reality the 10man guilds just quit the game.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    What I deny is that tanks are balanced, not that a nudget of guilds forego pals/monks. Taunt banner is there to cover low ranged aggro capabilities. Skullbanners can only be stacked up to a point where they lose effectiveness, but I think you have a point, since rogues and DKs are far more desirable than DPS warriors. Demobanner is not really strong, is one of the worst raid CDs, being not usable for certain types of damage and being 10% only. Rallying Cry is certainly not better, not only because it have a 3 min CD, but because it's only good for burst damage (that raid healing it's a loan, not healing, and don't get confused, I love it as it is).

    And that's forgetting passive healing, better dps and better mitigation, which is the point.

    We can discuss what hybrid mean if you want, but for tanks there are two kinds: the one which have a healing spec and the ones that don't. Use whatever word you want. Also, I love my warrior, and you would be very wrong if you think that I don't like it or I that I don't press it to the limit.

    I know what you meant with hybrids.

    Rallying cry and demobanner(isnt it all types of dmg 10% reduction) are better for attacks like dark animus jolts(especially on heroic), lei shens thunderaxe, stuff like that, where you need the extra hp to even survive the attack, thats why disc priest are so good,especially the 1min cooldown on Spiritshell. of course on bosses like iron qon last phase the paladin hammer wins over every other healingcd,but still effectively speaking rallying cry is better, but has a higher cooldown, so it can be used once maybe twice in iron qon, where a pala can you is three time, plus it scales with vengeance.

    First week we had two healer which sucked at council, so we had to take three, and were not able to kill sul. we had to do the boss the way it was inteded. And we would never had killed him if we didnt have a protwarrior with taunt banner.

    But reading both of your posts, the first one reads like. Warriors are totally bullshit they have nothing. Now the second one reads more like ok they ahve good stuff some are a bit weak need a small buff.

    As far as mitigation goes all tanks are balanced, when considering all bosses not just 1 or 2 abilities. Warriors and druid take less dmg and almost have no selfhealing compared to the other classes, paladin dks take alot of dmg and have very high selfhealing. Warriors and druid can selfheal/shield too, but they mainly focus on blocking/dodging, while paladin focuses on high SotR uptime with haste, haste also increases the selfhealing due to autoattacking faster. but they have alot less parry/dodge and block that way.

    A 100k hit.

    A druid CAN dodge it. 0 DMG if not takes due to very high amour about 75k.
    A Warrior critical blocks it. 40k dmg, 70k normal block, has higher parry dodge than the others.
    A monk, staggers or dodges it. 0DMG or 50k plus 50k staggered if he uses his 1 chi aility the staggered dmg goes away
    A paladin: SotR is up 60k, Shield is up 40-50k. They heal up 15k(dont know how much exactly just making a point)
    A DK, takes 100k heals up for 50k, plus gets a shield for the next hit.

    Yes all the other tanks can dodge and parry too, still monks and especially druids are all about dodge. but all in all all tanks take about the same amount of dmg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liebchen View Post
    Prot Paladins are completely OP in 10man... but Blizzard doesnt care about 10man!

    Under 25man conditions the OP'ness of Disc Priests and Prot Paladins isn't that gamechanging... of course it's nice to have a Tank who does 60k HPS, but when you have something like 600k Raid-HPS with 5 Healer in 25man its not big of a difference. In 10man where you only have something like 200k Raid-HPS 60k HPS are incredibly good!
    When a Blood-DK is doing 100k DPS a Prot Paladin is doing 150k DPS... 50k DPS have a huge impact in 10man but in 25man it doesnt matter at all.

    Same goes for Disc Priests... 50k DPS is nice to have in 25man but again with something like 2,5mio Raid-DPS its not even noticeable, while it is a big difference of having a Disc Priest in 10man or not.

    In the end every 10man raid who wants to kill bosses fast NEEDS a Protpaladin and a Disc Priest! Are there any Lei Shen or Ra-Den kills without these 2 classes? I don't think so!

    Raiding 10man without Disc Priest especially on 2-Healer fights is like fighting the Hard-Hardmode of the encounter without better loot.


    In the end i think blizzard wants to kill 10man raiding. First Thunderforge-Items, then the fact that 80% of heroic bosses are a joke on 25man after a few ids of TF-Items, the whole "bring the class not the player" concept for 10man raiding etc...
    I wonder if they are really so stupid that they thought that 10man guilds would switch to 25man... in reality the 10man guilds just quit the game.
    Infact a protpalas value is higher in 25m than 10m, cause the specials from bosses lik jikun,horridon,tortos hit alot harder and can be mitigated with a 100% certainty with SotR.

    From HPS PoV if just because warriors or druids dont selfheal for 50k, doenst mean they suck, if you take less dmg due to you class mechanics why do you need incredibly high amounts of selfhealing. Giving druids Seal of insight will be a complete waste cause a druid is a class that is supposed to not take dmg, so all the healing will be overheal(well most of it atleas).

    Infact there are leishen hc kills with no disc and protpala, raden i dont know.

    So 25 get more TF items, do that affect 10m prots in any way?

    Your post tells me, you dont have the slightest clue way you should bring a discpriest or Protpala to a fight. A disc priest that cant properly time his spiritshell is worthless compared to a good MW Monk. Plus I see alot of guilds having no discpriest and two healing alot.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-02 at 01:49 PM.

  19. #199
    @Liebchen Checking logs, blood dks dps is actually higher then prot paladins both in Top100 and on average.

    Also, paladins raid healing is not really as insanely strong as people make it up to be.

    Firstly, most of paladins healing is healing done to the paladin himself.
    Secondly, the raid healing, which is not that insanely high, is extremely overrated, as it is so static, it is not so adjustable as say a BRMs raid healing is, he can drop the healing when actually needed, paladins is just passive, most of it is wasted, it just looks good on the meters but doesnt really do that much.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-02 at 01:34 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #200
    Prot Paladins are fine, number 1 dps, heals almost as much as a healer and great survivibility, whats there to nerf?

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