Why have Prot palas not been nerfed?

[Viromand]

A warrior only have higher parry/dodge than paladins because there is no secondary stat to go to. Also, that's fine and good for melee hits. Now put unblockable physical damage (Triple Puncture, bleeds, any kind of hard physical raid aoe) and tell me what Sblock does for me and what sotr does for paladins. That's time to Sbar and eat full unmitigated melee damage to the face. Then try to reliable crit block something. That will cost you 22k mastery. How much does it cost a 60% sotr (was it 18k?)? How much uptime will they have on 550 gear+epic gems, and what will soi and ss do? You only need to see what they do now.

Hint: Sblock uptime is capped regardless of rage income, sotr is not.

You cant have high uptimes on SotR and 60%, no matter what you would loose some of the other normally 535ilvl protpalas have about 50% uptime and 45-50% dmg reduction. now consider it only beeing physical, and warrior has 10% more passive mitigation.

You also have you a shield if your uptime on Sblock is capped. seondary stats are only better if you get some defensiv from them. For big hits you always have small cooldowns. or big ones. which scales really good with vengeance and can save you from puncture dot like SotR does. There is not one fight this tier where you will die constantly if played correctly and prober cooldown usage.

mitigation wise dodge and parry are better than a haste protpala, for mechanics like jikun primordius, where melee attacks proc the dot. Most good tanks dont die to jikuns rake the die to the dot which does more dmg than the rake ability. cause they will use their cooldown/AM proberly. As a druid i have to use my cooldowns for rake, as a protpala you can use your SotR as a Warrior your Sbar. When having dodge/parry you will take about 2-3 stacks less thats almost 50-60k dps less dmg you take.

Dont forget als protpalas you HAVE to be Hit capped and expertise hardcapped, if you are going for haste. Its far more valuable than haste thats also one of the main reasons the have high dps same goes for monks and druids. As a dk you dont need to be capped, warrior it is nice to have but not mandatory.

The high dps is a result of personal skill. If a bad tank pulls 100k, a good pulls 200k on the same fight. Actually, the more vengeance you get, the bigger difference player skill does.

A bad tank can be above dps, yes, but if that tank was good, he would still do far more.

This!!! Vengeance doenst make you doe 200k dps with just autohits, infact paladin druids and monks high dps rotations are not just two buttons, warriors and dks is not as hard. And im not talking about castsequence makro pala or druids, those will never be in front of you dps or have high survivability, if a castsequnce makro druid is destroying your dpsclasses theysuck or he has so little uptime on sd doenst use he cds proberly that he will gain more vengeance than he should.

Vengeance is something good for dps, but its also depending on how much dmg the tank gets. And most of the dps classes were undergeared, so were tanks. and it was the same last tier, tanks dps nr1 till dps got better gear. And the amount of vengeance gets lower with more gear. Better gear less dmg less vengeance, DPS better gear better dmg

From my personal POV, never played with another tank that beat me in terms of dps (im a druid) still healer say its easier to heal me as a druid on fights like jikun. Is our protpala bad, no he is fine, and im not the best druid on this planet. So I should make a post about druids beeing the best class to heal, best dps class. But I know from other logs and class understanding that, this is not the case.

Having high dps says nothing about tankskill, as a druid you can jsut use maul all the time no SD and die but do 250k dps. As a protpala you can spam your SotR everytime its up, and never save up to 5 and use them where it is really Strong on specials like talons rake. You will end up with more dps but die.

With a certain amount of vengeance bad tanks do 100k dps, still good tanks will do 150-200k and still keep there AM uptimes higher which is more important. Good AM uptimes is the difference between 2 or 3 healing a fight, doing extra 50-100k dps dmg is not. Seen DK do alot of dps not using DS but Heartstrike instead, Still you would say the DS one is better due to him taking less dmg.

Some vengeance mechanics are broken. Paladin hammer scales to good with it. Druid dps cooldowns with high vengeance.

[Deleted]

You cant have high uptimes on SotR and 60%, no matter what you would loose some of the other normally 535ilvl protpalas have about 50% uptime and 45-50% dmg reduction. now consider it only beeing physical, and warrior has 10% more passive mitigation.

You also have you a shield if your uptime on Sblock is capped. seondary stats are only better if you get some defensiv from them. For big hits you always have small cooldowns. or big ones. which scales really good with vengeance and can save you from puncture dot like SotR does. There is not one fight this tier where you will die constantly if played correctly and prober cooldown usage.

mitigation wise dodge and parry are better than a haste protpala, for mechanics like jikun primordius, where melee attacks proc the dot. Most good tanks dont die to jikuns rake the die to the dot which does more dmg than the rake ability. cause they will use their cooldown/AM proberly. As a druid i have to use my cooldowns for rake, as a protpala you can use your SotR as a Warrior your Sbar. When having dodge/parry you will take about 2-3 stacks less thats almost 50-60k dps less dmg you take.

Dont forget als protpalas you HAVE to be Hit capped and expertise hardcapped, if you are going for haste. Its far more valuable than haste thats also one of the main reasons the have high dps same goes for monks and druids. As a dk you dont need to be capped, warrior it is nice to have but not mandatory.

To this part I can only answer WTF.

This!!! Vengeance doenst make you doe 200k dps with just autohits, infact paladin druids and monks high dps rotations are not just two buttons, warriors and dks is not as hard. And im not talking about castsequence makro pala or druids, those will never be in front of you dps or have high survivability, if a castsequnce makro druid is destroying your dpsclasses theysuck or he has so little uptime on sd doenst use he cds proberly that he will gain more vengeance than he should.

Vengeance is something good for dps, but its also depending on how much dmg the tank gets. And most of the dps classes were undergeared, so were tanks. and it was the same last tier, tanks dps nr1 till dps got better gear. And the amount of vengeance gets lower with more gear. Better gear less dmg less vengeance, DPS better gear better dmg

From my personal POV, never played with another tank that beat me in terms of dps (im a druid) still healer say its easier to heal me as a druid on fights like jikun. Is our protpala bad, no he is fine, and im not the best druid on this planet. So I should make a post about druids beeing the best class to heal, best dps class. But I know from other logs and class understanding that, this is not the case.

Having high dps says nothing about tankskill, as a druid you can jsut use maul all the time no SD and die but do 250k dps. As a protpala you can spam your SotR everytime its up, and never save up to 5 and use them where it is really Strong on specials like talons rake. You will end up with more dps but die.

With a certain amount of vengeance bad tanks do 100k dps, still good tanks will do 150-200k and still keep there AM uptimes higher which is more important. Good AM uptimes is the difference between 2 or 3 healing a fight, doing extra 50-100k dps dmg is not. Seen DK do alot of dps not using DS but Heartstrike instead, Still you would say the DS one is better due to him taking less dmg.

Some vengeance mechanics are broken. Paladin hammer scales to good with it. Druid dps cooldowns with high vengeance.

Not to pop anyone's party, but all tank rotations are equally dumb. Obviously skill have influence, but if this gibberish means they pull higher dps because the rotation is more complex, welll... It takes 1 hour /played to do a perfect a rotation on any tank. At least a warrior have to decide what to do with rage on execute. Oh, the pressure.

[Deleted]

Don't know if you honestly think that it take 1 hour /played to do a perfect rotation on a tank, since that is amongst the stupidest shit I have ever heard.

I got over 100 days /played on my tank, I got/had several rank 1's, both amongst my class, but also rank 1 of all classes on several boss fights. (no not boasting, making a point)

And I can honestly admit that I do not play my rotation 100% perfectly. On a regular basis I do 30-60% more damage than the rank 200 of my own class, and I would assume that the rank 200 got well over 1 hours played.

[Scinder]

I totaly agree with u. Paladins are OP, not just by a little bit. By a huge amount.

I as a healer, when playing with a Pala tank it feels like they take zero damage compared to other tanks
They can use CDso the other tanks take less damage
And most of all the Healing bit is insane.

A few bosses can easily be 2 man healed for us if we got paladin tank, while if we dont we need to go with 3 healers instead.
Playing with 3 healers and 1 paladin tank must be what heaven feels like

I truly get tired of the uninformed posting as if they have a clue.

Paladin tanks that gear towards avoidance take damage along the lines of every other tank. Paladins that gear towards a control/haste take more damage than other tanks. Look at world of logs if you don't believe it.

Those "shiny" healing numbers are mostly OVERHEALING done on the tank. Try looking at the actual breakdown of healing received by target before you QQ more.

The fights that can be solo tanked can be solo tanked by any tanking class as long as a paladin is in the raid.

Great job posting a link of mastery being broken for level 80 tunes that was nearly immediately hotfixed.

By the way. Some of the top guilds use Warrior tanks just as much as Paladin tanks. Hell, even Blood Legion used I believe a monk tank for their Lei Shen kill.

[Prokk]

When a Prot Pali is highest on Dps as well as Hps, there is a problem imo. Not like we have all fail dps or healers, just our Prot is amazing and kicks butt.

How is that a problem? A lot of that high HPS is overhealing done and it also scales with AP gained from Vengeance, which also increases dmg output from the paladin. This doesn't happen on all fights. One fight in particular, from experience, is heroic Wind Lord. High Dmg, High HPS (self heals even when Battle Healer is not glyphed). It's how vengeance/AP is scaling at the moment.

[kaiadam]

What is it with this "a lot of the healing is just overheals" thing that has been going on?

Healing done meters on world of logs already takes into account overhealing and subtracts it already, same with recount and skada. You'd have to go out of your way to find raw healing numbers and none of us are talking about that.

Paladin tanks that gear towards avoidance take damage along the lines of every other tank. Paladins that gear towards a control/haste take more damage than other tanks. Look at world of logs if you don't believe it.

Lets look at Iron Qon, a mostly straight single tank fight (at least at the level where people rank)

#1 Paladin: Айказайка, took 75 million damage in a 9:33 fight but healed 38 mil of it himself; healers needed to heal him for 37 million.
#1 Warrior: Rangoon, took 80 million damage in a 9:35 fight but healed 4 mil of it himself; healers needed to heal him for 76 million.
#1 Druid: Миноравр, took 80 million damage in a 10:25 fight but healed 7 mil of it himself; healers needed to heal him for 73 million.
#1 DK: Nekrofiend, took 106 million damage in a 11:40 fight but healed 46 mil of it himself; healers needed to heal him for 60 million.
#1 Monk: Phurionmonk, took 75 million damage in a 10:06 fight but healed 20 mil of it himself; healers needed to heal him for 55 million.

(these aren't outliers, feel free to check ranks 2-10. I did.)

[Deleted]

What is it with this "a lot of the healing is just overheals" thing that has been going on?

Healing done meters on world of logs already takes into account overhealing and subtracts it already, same with recount and skada. You'd have to go out of your way to find raw healing numbers and none of us are talking about that.

For this example, lets bring in our three good friends, Steve, Mark and Benny.

Now, Steve felt a bit cold, so he overstayed his welcome by the fire on the ground and got himself burned quite severely on the fire, so he lost 100k hit points.
Thankfully for him, Mark here is an expert healer, so he throws away some heals and hots heading Steves direction healing him for a total of 160k, that would be 100k healing to heal up the damage Steve had substained, and another 60k that went into overhealing.
Now this is what would have happened here, but in this situation we had a third actor here, Benny. Now Benny is a little toddler, and he is playing with a bowl of holy water, which got some healing potential, splashing the holy water all around, randomly hitting everything including pets, people with full health but also hitting Steve who was damaged.
Steve here then recieves a 20k heal from Benny the Toddlers random splashing of the holy water before Marks heals reach Steve. So when Marks heal reach Steve, Steve is only down 80k health instead of 100k, but Mark already got 160k healing going out to Steve, so his heal results in 80k healing and 80k overhealing.
So while Benny the Toddlers random splashing healed Steve for 20k, it only resulted in Mark doing 20k more overhealing, and the healing Benny did actually did nothing benefitial. If you look on the healing meters, it appears like Benny did 20k healing, but in reality, that was 20k overhealing, only that it shifted onto Marks overhealing instead of Bennys.

Do you understand now? Same reason why SoI healing is also wasted a lot.

Depending on how the fight is designed, 50-80% of the raid healing a paladin does is just wasted since it goes into overhealing for the healers.

And no please, do not even try to argue that "Well healers can throw away less heals if they got a paladin bla bla bla".
No. Just no. Healers do not account for paladins weak RANDOM AoE healing when spreading the heals. The only good heal that paladins have that is truely good is Lights Hammer for stacking, but in that case, Monk tanks get even stronger healing with their statue eithey way so...

[kaiadam]

Raids with paladins/monks just simply bring one fewer healer than raids without and end up with the healers healing for the same amount as other raids who bring one more. Alternatively, they bring the same amount of healers, and there's sufficiently less raid damage that needs to be healed up that healers can dedicate more of their time to babysitting the tank which results in them feeling much less bursty.

By your logic, if you can 3 heal a fight then there's no point in bringing a 4th healer because all he's doing is contributing to overhealing.

[Deleted]

Ehr, if you can 3 heal a fight, why bring a 4th healer?

Also looking at damage taken + self healing done doesn't really say that much.

TDT really says nothing, in MoP it is not about taking as little damage as you can, it is about reducing the damage taken during the 10-20% of the fight that actually hurts. The rest of the fight is irrelevant, and healers are not exactly going OOM. They do not really care if a tank takes 50M or 100M damage, as long as it is easy. A tank taking 50M damage can be harder to heal than a tank taking 100M damage if the damage taken is more random and more spread out.

Now, I am not saying this does or does not mean that paladins are the best/ the worst or whatever. Just saying that you way of measurement says nothing at all.

[kaiadam]

Ehr, if you can 3 heal a fight, why bring a 4th healer?

I don't know, ask guilds #4-3000 on heroic 25 Ragnaros, or why people ever killed heroic Ultrax25 with more than one healer.

Edit: And to refrain from sounding too snarky, my point is that there is no amount of extra healing that is wholly wasted. It may result in more overhealing, but it adds stability to the fight and more sources of healing which is why despite nearly every fight in 25H putting out numbers that CAN be 2 healed from a numbers perspective, most guilds bring 5-7.

[Deleted]

There is a difference between Paragon being able to use 3 healers on Ragnaros 25 HC and average joe guild using 3 healers.
Just because fights like Ultraxion can be killed with one healer doesnt mean it is easier or is the way to go.

The question is, if YOU, YOUR guild, nobody elses guild can kill a boss with x healers, why should you use more? It doesnt matter if someone else can 1 or 2 heal it, maybe they got better healers, better dpsers, better tank, better gear, just more skilled players, something that allows them to use fewer healers, what they do is irrelevant. What I am saying is that.

If you are using 3 healers or say, Tortos 10 Normal, and you can kill the boss like that, why would you bring 4? I really do not understand you reasoning at all, your arguments really make 0 sense at all.

[kaiadam]

We 3 healed ragnaros for our first kill then never went with fewer than 4 again because it was a huge pain in the ass when there is that little room for error. Your guild never brings an additional healer in for fights you were forced to underheal due to gear?

[Deleted]

I think we upped from 5 to 6 on Magmaw HC in Cata, but normally we liked to use the same number of healers to keep people focused on progress, + more dps faster farm, often dropped healers aswell.

But atleast as I understood you, if you can easily heal a fight with 3 healer without stressing, then there is no reason to bring a fourth really.

If you are using 3 healers because DPS check is insane, but it also makes healing very hard, then sure, if you can bring a fourth healer while reaching dps check, then yes, another healer is benefitial.

[nightfalls]

Find it funny when people say "When prot paladins are above our dps in damage there is a problem", yeah, not like the other tanks are not doing the same thing on the same fights? It is called vengeance guys, all tanks have it.

Also, I do not see any problem with tanks being above dps on dps on some fights, the fights are balanced for it, so do not see all the outrage with that. It is not like you can bring 7 tanks 3 healers on a fight and win.

I disagree that tanks should be above DPS on most fights at all (only perhaps "Alysrazor"-style fights where it is literally part of the fight design), but obviously your first point stands, which is that it isn't paladin-specific whatsoever and would only be "fixed" if Vengeance is reworked for all tanks (and fight balance is reworked for all fights).

[Deleted]

I disagree that tanks should be above DPS on most fights at all (only perhaps "Alysrazor"-style fights where it is literally part of the fight design), but obviously your first point stands, which is that it isn't paladin-specific whatsoever and would only be "fixed" if Vengeance is reworked for all tanks (and fight balance is reworked for all fights).

Well, I am not saying that tank 'should' be above DPS persay, just saying that I do not see any problems with it. Enrages are balanced around both tanks doing their dps and dpsers doing their dps. If tanks to 50k or 200k doesnt matter, if dps does 100k or 500k doesnt matter, the enrages are balanced around it. All I know is that tanking right now is at its most fun since you actually feel valuable and contributing to raid when your DPS actually matters, you have to perform your dps rotation well as a tank nowadays, which for me, is at it should be. Current vengeance model makes balancing tank dps for fight to fight very hard, but I think that tanks dps should be atleast on/near the level of dpsers dps to prevent tanking to become way to boring.
As a tank, I do not compare my DPS with DPS classes, I compare it with other tanks.
Likewise, DPSers should not compare there dps with tanks, but with other dps classes, and not be completely butthurt if tanks are above them on one fight.

[Ammonex]

What exactly does "thinking about aggro & healing" entail, exactly? Healing is almost completely passive and threat is never an issue.

Personally I think tanks are overemphasized in raids right now. Vengeance allows us to match any dps on any fight or handily beat them on most encounters. It makes it fun for us but where's the satisfaction that a rogue gets from doing a perfectly 2cp rupture/fok rotation on 4 targets when the brewmaster is like "lol keg smash" and he does double the damage? How does a healer get enjoyment out of the game when they min/max their cascade/poh/uplift/healing rain etc., sub in a complex aoe healing rotation when the prot pally drops a light's hammer and does 5 million healing with one gcd?

I honestly think vengeance should just be capped at a tenth of the current value, maybe small modifications depending on what difficulty level you're playing at.

Are you serious? Match any dps? You're wrong here.

Are you talking about Prot paladins? Because I thought that that's what this thread was about, not Monk keg smash.

Yes, healing is passive mostly with Battle healer and Seal of Insight. However, there are still Word of Glory's that a Prot paladin with 2pc can cast for the 2-set bonus.

Threat issues? For me personally, I feel like my threat is weaker (as a prot paladin) compared to our Blood DK.

[Merie]

Tankadins are the best at tanking and healadins are the best at pvp healing to offset retadins being sub par to everything.

It is the way of the Warcraft.

[nightfalls]

Well, I am not saying that tank 'should' be above DPS persay, just saying that I do not see any problems with it. Enrages are balanced around both tanks doing their dps and dpsers doing their dps. If tanks to 50k or 200k doesnt matter, if dps does 100k or 500k doesnt matter, the enrages are balanced around it. All I know is that tanking right now is at its most fun since you actually feel valuable and contributing to raid when your DPS actually matters, you have to perform your dps rotation well as a tank nowadays, which for me, is at it should be. Current vengeance model makes balancing tank dps for fight to fight very hard, but I think that tanks dps should be atleast on/near the level of dpsers dps to prevent tanking to become way to boring.
As a tank, I do not compare my DPS with DPS classes, I compare it with other tanks.
Likewise, DPSers should not compare there dps with tanks, but with other dps classes, and not be completely butthurt if tanks are above them on one fight.

Right, my view is regarding an overall balance thing, nothing to do with this topic.

[Viromand]

#1 Paladin: Айказайка, took 75 million damage in a 9:33 fight but healed 38 mil of it himself; healers needed to heal him for 37 million.
#1 Warrior: Rangoon, took 80 million damage in a 9:35 fight but healed 4 mil of it himself; healers needed to heal him for 76 million.
#1 Druid: Миноравр, took 80 million damage in a 10:25 fight but healed 7 mil of it himself; healers needed to heal him for 73 million.
#1 DK: Nekrofiend, took 106 million damage in a 11:40 fight but healed 46 mil of it himself; healers needed to heal him for 60 million.
#1 Monk: Phurionmonk, took 75 million damage in a 10:06 fight but healed 20 mil of it himself; healers needed to heal him for 55 million.

(these aren't outliers, feel free to check ranks 2-10. I did.)

pls dont tell me you used the dps nr 1 ranks on iron qon to compare dmg taken and healing done. This is the worst possible example you could have picked. The druid has used his SD 9 imes on a 10m plus fight. A Warlock glyphed tank would have taken less dmg^^.


So all that stuff is totally worthless.

paladins do alot of dmg and not needing to worry about mitigation cause on is a 30 second buff the other one does dmg. nr1 pala has nice uptimes, so paladin is legit.
Only looking at the druids with uptimes on SD, where you can actually say he indeed tryed to mitigate some dmg, it looks really different.

Not even looking at the other classes, this post made my day thank you.

Here is another one.

Mage took 700k dmg instant, 10min fight, selfhealed 100k , healers had to heal him up for 0. best tank ingame.

(these aren't outliers, feel free to check ranks 2-10. I did.), I did and you are so wrong. Just looking at some other top10 from other classes still, wow this is so, "i pick what i want so paladin looks good and the rest looks really bad." This is like the worst post on this topic, even the ones just saying "pala op pls nerf" are better than this.

The only thing your posts shows is that paladins AM does dmg. What a surprise. Let me quess, a paladin heals himself and the raid aswell, when he is doing dmg.

Sorry dont want to be mean but not even looking at every class or log in detail i can tell you that what you did there, is the worst way to compare DMG taken between classes. The top 4 druids have uptime on SD which would be not really good on a bossfights which you are tanking all by yourself, comparing to a paladin who has uptimes near perfection. The uptime on the nr1 druid is so bad, he only wanted to be rank1. You would never have a chance with a druid like this killing the boss for the first time without taking 1-2 more healers. If you watn to compare the nr protpala to a maybe a druid find one with uptimes with alteast 55% uptime if not 60% uptime on SD, then you can compare both.

To this part I can only answer WTF.

Not to pop anyone's party, but all tank rotations are equally dumb. Obviously skill have influence, but if this gibberish means they pull higher dps because the rotation is more complex, welll... It takes 1 hour /played to do a perfect a rotation on any tank. At least a warrior have to decide what to do with rage on execute. Oh, the pressure.

First part is true, dont believe me, look at logs. armoury, guides, etc.

Easy to learn yes, maybe protwarrior is easy aswell. but really mastering it is the key. Paladin have alot of buttons, knowing when to push one at the right time and still keep shield on a very high uptime, its not that easy, you will not learn this 1hr /played. As a druid you have to watch for proccs, try to keep dotuptime as high as possible, ofc you can just put the 4 buttons on a castsequence makro, but you will miss out on mangleprocs loose dps hitting thrash and not FF or FF not thrash. You dont just use execute on warriors and dont care about AM anymore, you could but would die alot.

[Glorious Leader]

Our Brewmaster monk was getting cracked on Primordius. He was getting globaled. Literally. He was ilvl 514. We brought his prot paladin instead. Ilvl 493. Got him on the first try with his prot paladin. 17 ILVL LESS. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. It was great. I laughed and laughed and laughed. It's still funny. Their OP and I love it. You shouldn't be complaining about it. You should abuse the crap out of it.