Another question is, why should tanks be below dpsers on dps? Not saying they should do more really, but tanks should do enough for it to matter in the raid group, and really see no benefit of tanks doing trivial dps as they have been doing in previous expansions.
I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.
Your playstyle only got critiqued because you are poor and to be honest the others were carrying you. Your logs were comically bad, but ofc thats because the fight is so unfair against holy palas because *we have to move* while other holy palas are outshining you by a fucking mile because they actually used the appropriate heals. Call people on the forums assholes, thats fine , but you're the one who stubbornly refused to take onboard any advice whether it be tactic or class related. If I recall on that fight you hardly used LOD because "people weren't stacked" even though it has a 30 yard range. When questioned about it you gave the usual weaksauce crap about "I've played since wotlk and am awesome, can't be me" It's funny how all the people who disagree with you "don't know what the fuck they are talking about" yet they are all streets ahead of you in progression isn't it? Anyway, enough about your inability to listen and penchance to lash out at anyone who disagrees with you.
"Phenominal" tanks don't get crushed on primordius normal, doesnt happen. Your anecdotal evidence of "lol 1 shot with a pala" but monk died means either monk isn't as phenominal as you may think or your healers are naff. I'm not disputing palas are the strongest tanks atm but if a monk dies with such a gear disparity its not because prot palas are OP, its because something else went wrong.
Once again, forgive us for taking your drivel with a pinch of salt but evidence strongly suggests you don't really know what you are talking about but others do.
Prot Paladins have always been fairly OP since they became viable. I had switched early Cata from Paladin to Warrior mostly because Warriors were rarer and seemed more interesting than the Paladin, but both went to the wayside after this "active mitigation" shit came out. IMO worst change ever and one that didn't need to be here.
It is not about topping dps meters. It is about topping dps AND healing meters both.
Give it to the tank: You get more tank stability
Give it to the healer: You get more raid stability
Give it to the DPS: You get more DPS.
Now, what if the tank is doing at minimum about what a DPS does, and at maximum, like 2-3x a DPS. Now he's become 2-3x more important since you get more tank stability, more raid stability (due to some group healing), AND your raid's DPS actually scales almost 2-3x as much as if you gave the gear to the DPS!
Basically, even before tanks did 2-3x the DPS of a DPS player, a tank was already a very important member of a group, I'm sure you and I can't deny that fact, nor am I saying that a tank shouldn't be an important member of the group. But now he's basically just grown relatively in importance, 1-2 people out of 25, even more than he already was. Considering at the end of the day the tank, just like the other group members, is a person playing a character, I don't find that a good thing.
Actually it matters, cause
A) most people thing BH is the reason they have so high hps number
B) it really doenst mean the only had to heal him for 30% of the time.
C) A paladin, takes the dmg which is either absorbed(which is their main heal in the logs) or he hast to heal it back up.
D) Just cause Tanks A heals more than Tank B doenst mean Tank A didnt take more dmg then TankB he just healed more.
E) Paladins have no AM or spell that increases their dodge/parry. SotR is a pure DMG reduction, with about 40-50% uptime, on a NH geared Paladin, with about 45% dmg reduction. So 50% of the fight they have to absorb the dmg or heal it back up. Dont know about the rest but, passive mitigation is 10% higher on druids or warriors than on a Paladin.
So if you take that selfheal or nerf it slightly palas will get destroyed.
@DPS, on how many fights are tanks above dps?
-On jinrokh dps should be ahead,
-horridon dps are ahead(btw this is the only fight where BH is really op and heals alot).
-council normally dps and tanks are almost the same, depends on how you do it. Warrior really high dps on that fight if you tank all three together.
-Tortos. Tanks win here.
-Megaera: I dont really see a point in bringing only one tank(bringing one tank only should make the fight alot easier which is not the case on that boss) so dps always ahead.
- Jikun; DPS
-Durumu: Two tanking, dps ahead. 1 tank almost the same except if you HoP at high lvls to get extra Vengeance but will mostlikely have to take a third
-primordious, dps ahead.
-ironqon: tank if only one tank.
Only taking one tank doenst always mean dps increase, Two tanks on durumu with two healers will do almost the same dps as having 1 tank and 1 extra dps, even if you still only need two healers. the other tanks dps will not doubled, and me as a druid taking the boss with incarnation, than letting the other tank taunt again. specing HotW. The dmg you gain in NH is minor.
On NH atleast the tank beeing nr1 alot will change once dps get that good gear
And giving the tank gear, will not raise his dps as much as if it would have gone to a dps. Infact due to Vengeance mechanics, haven better gear lets you take less dmg gives you less vengeance (yeah its minor i know).
For paladins AM ist dps. they dont need to use their main ressources to get extra dmg and loose AM for that. Monks and druids do more dps than palas. All three of them are very strong at dps. Still mainly cause the have are hit/expcapped, and have hast/crit as stats. Still a protpala doess 70-80%of his dmg through vengeance where druids and monks only 50-60%. Giving them gear will not raise their dps (you will not even notice it compared to dps) just the survivability. Also the healing scales with vengeance also, still healers will get more hps out of new items than tanks.
Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-03 at 11:52 AM.
Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.
We tryd it, with pala druid, on durumu nh. the dps increase was 50k, normally as druid i would still let the palatank tank most of the fight and reset stacks, but im taunting using berserk incarnation let him HoP, and he taunts back. Now we use BL on start i put on my intweapon pop HotW and do 200k dps while BL and HotW is active for around 40sec, than i taunt after prot gets 5 stacks, use incarnation. for 30 seconds he taunst tanks for the rest of the fight. except if he is getting low or spiked healers having a bit trouble in the lightphase, taunt use berserk, and cooldowns. exchanging me with another dps, is a dps increase of 50k. Now on that boss our rdps is between 850k and 1000k dps, so it depends on what class you take, take a class that does not do as much dmg while running. and the increase will be even lower. And our healers said it was much smoother with two tanks.
Last edited by Adudu; 2013-05-03 at 12:54 PM.
In 25m the warrior banner plus shatter would raise his dps by 70-100k. in 10m it would be around 25-40k. Which is more than HotW gives a druid as dps improvement, not counting that you need to be casting for 45sec and have a good intweapon, to get close to that. And that not beeing a raidcooldown, just a personal one.
And unlike AP buff, skullbanner are unique to warriors. It doenst make warrior equal with druid or monks in terms of dps but closes the gap alot.
Death Knights seem far stronger and more common than Paladin tanks at the moment. Then you have the fact that Paladin tank DPS is some of the lowest also.
If you cannot command, then you must obey. - Prince Nuada
B) yes it does. If a tank is healing himself then less healing needs to be directed to the tank. If a tank is doing 65k HPS the need for an extra healer is highly reduced as you can drop a healer or fistweave etc. The point is, paladins being so strong means they can drop healers to gain a lot more DPS, no other tank can do that.
C) This is just not true, logs can prove this quite easily. Paladins are very much on the high end in terms of reduction and cooldowns (ignoring the healing).
D) How about a tank that takes around the same damage but then also heals 30k HPS on-top of the absorbs?
E) Warriors don't either. That's by design - a 45% chance to dodge for 100% reduction is the same as a 100% chance to block for average 45% (30%->60% Critical)
I'd love to see the log of that Monk that is getting killed. I'm guessing no use of Fort Brew/Guard/Dampen/Purify Brew, and/or non-100% shuffle uptime. The difference between a good monk and a bad monk is pretty huge.
When a pala takes a hit it will show up fully as dmg taken, but the absorbeddmf will make it even with with other tank classes that have high passiv mititation or something else.
Give or take 1 or 2 special abilities, the amount of dmg taken considering selfheal and everything else is almost identical. Some bosses favour certain types of tanks, most palas or monk.
Its everything combined what makes palas strong mostly their utility which wins this tier. Cause not only can they use it on themselves but, give it to your tankpartners aswell. Divine shield for example. LOH, all the hands, paladins are the best tanks for tankswapping even with lower vengeance they just give the other tank the hand that let you loose aggro for 10seconds, and after thats he has no problems.
And please dont compare random ranked tanks again, I am not talking about some palas with DS uptime lower than 60%, monks using guard 2-3 times or elusive brew 5times. Protwarriors that almost never use Sbar, and still have low sblock uptimes. DKs that use both deathrunes for heartstrike instead of DS. Druids with SD uptimes lower than 40%, not using T&C or FR.
Cause if you do you need to put playerskill into that equation, and than you can never say which tank is better, cause there will mostlikely be a Tank from another class that takes less dmg and does more dps than you will playing a pala.
Comparing Tanks with good uptimes, or even theoretical. not tankclass A seems easier to heal than tankclassB.
So comparing them then:
A) they all take roughly the same amounts of dmg. Like I said some Specialabilities favor classes it will never change, and has not since BC.
B) Paladin Druid Monk do more dps than the other two single target. While Warrior brings banner, for extra dmg. DK not so much.
AoE/mutlitarget its different. DK do more dps and aoe grip lets dps do more dmg to them too. Warrior strong on aoe fights.
C) Raidhealing, All have some but Paladins hammer is real strong, monk is really strong too, so are druids hotw and warriors. DK lacks a bit.
(again not looking at the encounter just the healing they do, some have positionalrestrictions some need to be casts/channeled. Some raise EH, some heal)
D) Personalcooldowns. Monk clear winner, even more considering the glyphs they have, than paladins right after that druid and warrior and
(With symbiosis druids gets alot of good stuff, so do the other tanks, maybe not very strong on all tanks but still its a small cooldown so a small plus to druids)
E) Active Mitigation. Paladins and monks are strong on abilities that cannot be blocked/dodged/parried/absorbed. Tho monks are a bit better having so many and
different ones. Pala strong as I said. Druids warriors are good aswell, DK also quite strong with DS.
F) UtilityCounting stuff that make fights easier, help the raid in any way possible, only comparing tanks) Hands down paladin with HoP, ToTs best ultility.
They have some other good stuff, all the hands, plus beeing able to use some twice. Monks lot of utility, high movement, RoP, glyphed Firebreath. Druids roar(also aoe slow
dispel), symbiosis, add control. Warrior,taunt banner, high mobility, aoe silence /slow. DK Aoe frezze, aoe grip, singletarget grip. good range aggro(like monk)
G) Magicdmg, Alot of AMs only help against physical dmg so do masteries. you could argue the increase healing from SotR plus mastery help a bit. But on
big magic hits almost all classes need some sort of cooldown. Some have better not really a huge difference here. The ones that have better Cooldowns,
have less passive magic mitigation.
All in All i would say 1. Pala 2. Monk 3. Warrior Druid DK.
!!This is just comparing the tanks!! No raidcomp/setup, another pala, any specific encounters just tot as a whole raid. No playerskill taken into account here. Just pure simple facts on tanks.
Now palas are the best nerfing them will be hard cause they would have to nerf all pala speccs or change raidencounters.
Tanks are fine the way they are. you are not killing a boss, if you have to replace the tank the reason is he sucks, if not then its not the fault of the tankclass in almost every case.
All top20 guilds no matter 25 or 10m, i would say they have about the same playerskill give or take. Now almost every possible Tankcomp is represented their.
A good DK will always be better as a good Pala, same goes for monks and druids, warriors and pala.
If you have a Monk with ilvl 514 he dies on primordious nh goes from 100-0 in 2 seconds, and you kill it with the monk logging onto his alt 493 pala, and you kill the boss.
In 99.9% times a monk gets killed like that its the player fault not the class.
Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-03 at 03:33 PM.