Why have Prot palas not been nerfed?

[Deleted]

AP shout is a buff not a cooldown. maybe a personal one, but not a raidcooldown.
In 25m the warrior banner plus shatter would raise his dps by 70-100k. in 10m it would be around 25-40k. Which is more than HotW gives a druid as dps improvement, not counting that you need to be casting for 45sec and have a good intweapon, to get close to that. And that not beeing a raidcooldown, just a personal one.
And unlike AP buff, skullbanner are unique to warriors. It doenst make warrior equal with druid or monks in terms of dps but closes the gap alot.

You vastly overvalue the skullbanner and shattering throw.

[Dreyen]

The one thing i can admit thou.. word of glory is weak, why should you have to stack it to 5x for it to be ever useful? No other class has that on their non-physical restricted AM abilities.

[Lomanoft]

I find these kind of threads to be silly. Had you been complaining about this being a problem in pvp, and it posing a class balance issue, I could understand (and I don't pvp very much). But to say "nerf Paladins" (you know, the guy standing next to me that is on the same side) "because I am not as strong", is idiotic imo. Better players = easier content clear. Why would you ask this? Even if you are a different sort of tank and are having trouble getting groups/gear because of it.

[Deleted]

Also i don't see how ShotR is hard to time, i went in ToT LFR and its frankly pretty damn easy, probably easier than warriors and DKs, just pool holy power until the attack comes, because if they waste their bubbles on a melee hit.. oh shit, while paladin? it's up for 3 seconds anyways, and besides you have dbm/casttimes to watch for, so its pretty much the same if you look at the cast bar of the boss.

And honestly, outside of "nukes", i don't think many bosses are that threatening with a simple melee autoattack... I just think the paladin ShotR should give them 100% block chance just like warriors, the difference being they block a steady, high amount rather than a chance of critical block, this way they wont circumvent mechanics that cant be blocked but can be reduced by ShotR, and mechanics that can be blocked, well shotr could still be used, and then everything can be balanced afterwards.. it's either that or buff other classes. Druid is probably the class with the biggest problem with these mechanics though, they really should get a beefy hp increase since their AM to counter big hits is a self-heal and not an absorb/damage reduction... either that or they should get such a mechanic.

I still think paladins got nice tools outside of shotr, they have sacred shield, high block amounts and their very high self-healing, my paladin co-tank actually outhealed my druid so hard on stone guard even though all i did was extremely well timed frenzied regens... I wouldn't consider them that squishy, especially with their pletora of tank cooldowns. (6 if you count devo aura and lay on hands..)

SotR uptime depends on gear, I am usually well above 60%.

LFR is not really a great place to tell if someone is easy or hard. Not saying it is hard to time SotR, but on a regular boss fight you have more than 1 thing on your mind, LFR is completely brain dead in comparison to heroic, heck, even normal mode raiding, and it is then that it is possible to miss 1 sotr sometimes because you are focused on other matters, and when a paladin miss a sotr, he is far weaker than any other tank missing their AM.

And yes, tank deaths happens on fights other than those with high damage physical nukes, just look at dark animus, or tanking bats on tortos + add every other boss that does not have a high physical damage nuke.

But druids for sure do not need a buff, they are extremely strong right now. Remember me dieng on Ji-Kun normal during the first weeks, *cough* lets say I dced *cough*. Our druid took well over 10 stacks, I believe it was 13 that he took, he cant have had more than 505 ilvl at the time. Thats the thing, druids have (I believe) the strongest passive damage reduction, so they do not really need a strong AM because they are strong passively.

And yes, no tank is squishy. It is just simple fact that paladins are the squishiest of all tanks when their AM is down, which wold make the logical conclusion to make paladins more like the other tanks, to prevent niche fights for paladins, to lower SotR effectiveness and increase passive defenses.

[Lothrik]

Just gonna chime in here and say:
Yeah, prot paladins are mind-bogglingly overpowered. We had our 522 iLvl Prot Warrior switch to his 500~ iLvl Prot Paladin on H Tortos 10 and it suddenly became a far, far easier fight (even though we were cheesing it with his warrior, 100% uptime on Second Wind). Who woulda thunk? He's in the process of rerolling now.

[djtravitrav]

I don't know if it's all that great. I have like 17 top 10 rankings between both my prot pally and brewmaster this tier, neither have gotten me any real credibility.

I just do what I always have done as a tank, I was hit capping/exp capping both my prot pallys in firelands and ranking like a beast then as well. Only now, it's just more noticeable that I can top meters, primarily due to the way vengeance works. On a fight like durumu, I can even blow every other character in the raid completely off the fucking chart. My 25m durumu normal parse is beaten by only 5 players in the entire world across all classes, 3 of which are asian logs with far higher ILVLs.

And to echo the sentiments above, Prot Paladins are certainly the worst of all tanks when you fuck up a SHoTR timing, and generally will result in a death. I've been guilty of this since I'm a lazy bitch and just macro SHoTR into crusader strike, but whatever, it happens rarely.

[Dreyen]

SotR uptime depends on gear, I am usually well above 60%.

LFR is not really a great place to tell if someone is easy or hard. Not saying it is hard to time SotR, but on a regular boss fight you have more than 1 thing on your mind, LFR is completely brain dead in comparison to heroic, heck, even normal mode raiding, and it is then that it is possible to miss 1 sotr sometimes because you are focused on other matters, and when a paladin miss a sotr, he is far weaker than any other tank missing their AM.

And yes, tank deaths happens on fights other than those with high damage physical nukes, just look at dark animus, or tanking bats on tortos + add every other boss that does not have a high physical damage nuke.

But druids for sure do not need a buff, they are extremely strong right now. Remember me dieng on Ji-Kun normal during the first weeks, *cough* lets say I dced *cough*. Our druid took well over 10 stacks, I believe it was 13 that he took, he cant have had more than 505 ilvl at the time. Thats the thing, druids have (I believe) the strongest passive damage reduction, so they do not really need a strong AM because they are strong passively.

And yes, no tank is squishy. It is just simple fact that paladins are the squishiest of all tanks when their AM is down, which wold make the logical conclusion to make paladins more like the other tanks, to prevent niche fights for paladins, to lower SotR effectiveness and increase passive defenses.

As far as LFR vs Heroic goes... pretty sure timers stay the same, and it's still easier to get a sotr off than it is to get a deathstrike bubble or a shield barrier off mind you, one melee hit too early, those two get wasted for the actual big hit, sotr will still stand tall though. All you have to do it watch the dbm timer or check for the castbar and use your sotr, other tanks dont get it any easier, they all get the additional mechanics.

Druids have the highest passive mitigation because they have no active mitigation, just an dodge and self-heal (See no absorbs), they have a damage reduction on melee autoattacks but thats it, no impact on the big bursts of ToT. They do fine on autoattacks, it's just that it's the abiltity hits that kill you. Your druid might have taken 13 stacks of the bleeding debuff, but thats not the important debuff, the talon rake is (I suppose you dont mean 13 talon rakes because thats impossible to survive), but other classes will always be able to take more stacks than the druid will because they can time their active mitigations on such attacks, paladins being the kings by -far-. I'm saying druids need something to deal with this big weakness.

[mistahwilshire]

Prot paladins suck outside of raiding so it's okay.

What else would a prot paladin even play?

Their only real purpose is tanking PvE content...

Your post doesn't make any sense.

[kelyne]

Having played prot since BC I can say for sure Paladins have not always been an over powered tank.

In BC you couldn't even tank some bosses until you out geared them.
In Wrath Dk's were by far option of choice
In Cata I would say that warriors were better but it depended on the fight

Right now I tank with a Monk and my healers tell me that over all he is easier to heal becaus I am more spiky. The obvious reason for this is because I am failing to always time my SoTR correctly. I would imagine that guilds such of Paragon and BloodLegion time it perfectly everytime which means that overall their paladins take little damage. I guess what I am getting at is there will always be a general "better" tank. ATM Paladins are that tank but have to be played perfectly. I think if blizz nerfed them they would no longer be as viable for people who are more casual.

Side note on healing - Most of our healing is self (over) healing. I've actually noticed that my monk does more raid healing than I do on the average though absorbs. I am guessing because recount doesn't track that that more people don't realize it...

---------- Post added 2013-05-07 at 12:00 AM ----------

What else would a prot paladin even play?

Their only real purpose is tanking PvE content...

Your post doesn't make any sense.

Challenge Modes - I tanked 9/9 for my Gold and a few of them were extremely difficult due to not having the AoE CC and stun/silence breaks Monks and DK's have. SM for instance - the pull right after the first boss with the Judicators... 4 second chained stuns = no HoPo = no SoTR = Dead Paladin.

[Valedus]

I'm kinda boogled at people saying prot paladins are not op, they have the most drastic and powerful active mitigation that trivialize tank life-threatening moves from bosses.. nobody has an easy time like prot paladins on dire call + triple puncture + melee hit for exemple. Prot paladins basically have a shieldwall on demand of these kind of moves, unlike other tanks.. especially druids.

Hand of protection is definitely not a factor into this as any paladin can do it..

And that is balanced by the fact that Bear druids have metric tons of armor. And I would assume these attacks can be avoided? Well, druids have insane amounts of dodge with their active mitigation. If there was a massive issue with tanks, it would have been fixed by now. The only problem is battle healer is too strong, and it is getting nerfed. Other tanks are able to put out raid healing also.

---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 07:03 PM ----------

Having played prot since BC I can say for sure Paladins have not always been an over powered tank.

In BC you couldn't even tank some bosses until you out geared them.
In Wrath Dk's were by far option of choice
In Cata I would say that warriors were better but it depended on the fight

Right now I tank with a Monk and my healers tell me that over all he is easier to heal becaus I am more spiky. The obvious reason for this is because I am failing to always time my SoTR correctly. I would imagine that guilds such of Paragon and BloodLegion time it perfectly everytime which means that overall their paladins take little damage. I guess what I am getting at is there will always be a general "better" tank. ATM Paladins are that tank but have to be played perfectly. I think if blizz nerfed them they would no longer be as viable for people who are more casual.

Side note on healing - Most of our healing is self (over) healing. I've actually noticed that my monk does more raid healing than I do on the average though absorbs. I am guessing because recount doesn't track that that more people don't realize it...

---------- Post added 2013-05-07 at 12:00 AM ----------



Challenge Modes - I tanked 9/9 for my Gold and a few of them were extremely difficult due to not having the AoE CC and stun/silence breaks Monks and DK's have. SM for instance - the pull right after the first boss with the Judicators... 4 second chained stuns = no HoPo = no SoTR = Dead Paladin.

Monk healing is high because their healing is mostly from their statue throwing absorb shields around the room, which will never overheal.

[Dreyen]

And that is balanced by the fact that Bear druids have metric tons of armor. And I would assume these attacks can be avoided? Well, druids have insane amounts of dodge with their active mitigation. If there was a massive issue with tanks, it would have been fixed by now. The only problem is battle healer is too strong, and it is getting nerfed. Other tanks are able to put out raid healing also.

Nope, bear armor is maybe 10% more damage reduction? Thats our alternative to block, it's like a 100% block chance.. so 10% more damage reduction VS a 50% timed SotR vs a meaningful attack, paladin's gonna win. And no, not all of those attacks can be avoided, i think only snapping bite can be avoided out of all the tank threatening moves the bosses do, and even then, if you miss you still take a buttload of damage... and snapping bite ignores armor so lol @ druids.

[Viromand]

You vastly overvalue the skullbanner and shattering throw.

No the numbers are about right.

Druids have about 15% more dmg mitigation through armour than an equal lvl protpala(jsut compared myself to a equally geared tank.) plus the 10% more passive mitigation.
Most high ilvl geared palas have about 45% dmgreduction on SotR.

And again, changed protwarrior to protpala on tortos hc, ilvl difference about 22 ilvl. Why would you spec second wind on that fight. with 2 t15 and impending victory, they help you get a higher shield on you. And if only warriors had a spell that quarantees you not to die by snapping bite. Oh wait shieldblock does. And second wind 100% uptime, he had to click on the shield with low hp.
But sure ilvl 500 palas have 10k haste, are hit/exp capped, and 45% dmg reduction. Now i would be surprised to see the logs. And again a 20 ilvl difference in no way does the paladin take less dmg than a warrior. maybe your dps didnt get as much dmg, healers having less trouble du to that and time to heal the paladin. The probability that changing a 522 warrior tank to a 500 palatank is the reason you killed the boss, is like 2%.

WoG sucks, but they have a shield that also absorbs magicdmg. plus on big magic hits you use cooldowns.

Palatanks are designed that way,they take more dmg but have a higher selfheal, with SotR they take less dmg on big hits, but bosses do like to melee hit, and that quite alot. The overall dmg taken is higher than any other tanks.

no.

Yes

Nope, bear armor is maybe 10% more damage reduction? And no, not all of those attacks can be avoided, i think only snapping bite can be avoided out of all the tank threatening moves the bosses do, and even then, if you miss you still take a buttload of damage... and snapping bite ignores armor so lol @ druids.

On horridon druid lack a bit but not impossible as a druid.
snapping bite can be dodge it taking 0 dmg and it should never oneshot you even on heroic if you dont mess up. every other class will be oneshotted too if they mess up with SotR shieldblock or the shield on heroic.

On jikun, you should almost never have to take more than three stacks. And you have cooldowns for the third or fourht. On all our attempts on heroic i had to take fourth stack 1 time and three stacks only if the other tank is on the second guardian. so basicly once every fight. Druids are the most unlikely to be killed, due to having less dot stacks on them, and cause palatanks dont have any parry dodge as hastetanks, and dot still applies with blocks, they take alot more dmg from the dot and are more likely to die after a rake plus dottick.

[britishbubba]

I'm kinda boogled at people saying prot paladins are not op, they have the most drastic and powerful active mitigation that trivialize tank life-threatening moves from bosses..

They also have the most demanding rotation for tanks, and the shortest duration on their AM of any tank.

I wouldn't really say prot paladins are op, I'd hedge it and say that paladin talents weren't thought through well. Sacred Shield is such a stupidly strong ability for a tank (damn near the same absorbs a warrior's shield barrier puts out, but you only have to cast it every 30 seconds) and Holy Avenger which is effectively a 45% shield wall for ~30 seconds. A lot of the "cheese" things a protadin can do are thanks to HA boosting burst SoTR uptime and gaining extra vengeance (and therefore damage and healing) on fights like iron qon where you can just tank a bunch of extra stacks because you have what is effectivly a 30 second duration GoAK on a minute shorter CD.

That and if paladins are op, I don't see why anyone really cares (it's PvE, most of the people on here are probably at the same raiding level as me where you're not even remotely close to top 100, so who cares which raid has a slight 1% advantage. If you lose realm first 3 weeks from now to another guild and think you can blame that solely on the fact that you had a druid tank instead of a paladin tank... well, might want to actually take a look at your raid). With any luck blizzard will look at prot paladins and Brewmaster monks and see the successes that these two tanking specs were this expac (which I think they both are) and try to add some of that to other tanking classes and make it better for everyone. They can't get EVERYTHING right on the first go, and you can kill all content with any tank and having a protadin only makes it a little easier.

and snapping bite ignores armor so lol @ druids.

Our bear never had an issue, Had SD up, if he didn't dodge, hit a vengeance and 2pc empowered Frenzied regen. If he did dodge it (which he usually did) he just continued on with his day. Other tanks may be "weaker" than prot paladins (which I don't agree, they all bring some type of raid utility that is better than most of what paladins have imo. Esp brewmasters, those guards from ox status are insane).

[Mormolyce]

Essentially, the design team believes paladins should be the best tanks in the game and they've maintained this belief since WotLK (outside of a patch or two). It's unfortunate if you play another class, but it's just the way it is.

I remember them being pretty ordinary if not underpowered in most of Cata.

[Deleted]

no.

Good job making a completely uneducated and completely wrong reply in a thread contributing completely nothing to it only making yourself look like a fool.
This is the problem with this thread, people have no idea what they are actually talking about, but fine, lets play your game.

DKs: 39% stamina, 55% armor, 10% damage reduction
Druids: 25% stamina, 330% armor(roughly 57.5% higher than plate armor values), additional armor from agility and mastery, 25% magical damage reduction, 12% physical damage reduction.
Monks: 30% stamina, 25% damage reduction, no armor increase
Paladins: 29% stamina, 10% armor, 15% damage reduction
Warriors: 20% stamina, 25% armor, 25% damage reduction

So firstly what you will notice is that paladins and dks are the only class that does not have the 25% magical damage reduction, but I think that is fair since they got by far the best cooldowns to deal with magic damage of all tanks, DKs also got the by far highest stamina making them good with dealing with the magic damage as their damage reduction is only 10% while paladins is 15%.
For the melee reduction, Bears only got 12% physical damage reduction, but their armor is... is... I got no words... They are so incredibly passively strong it is insane. Monks on the other hand, got no armor increase at all, they are stuck on very low armor, however they got 25% passive physical damage reduction and second highest stamina, not to mention how well their abilities negates physical damage. Warriors nothing much to say really, their armor is in the middle ground, their stamina is low but they got the 25% damage reduction by far making up for it.
Death Knights, the gods of stamina, very high armor but only 10% damage reduction. I would take that stamina and armor any day over the damage reduction. Paladins being the runt of the litter, having decent stamina values, but only 10% armor increase and 15% damage reduction, pushing them waaaaaaay behind all other tanks on physical damage outside of the AM.

Monks is the only class that could be argued to be 'weaker' than paladins outside of the AM, but I still wouldn't stretch it that far as monks deals far better passively with magic damage and just how monks work. Now, I have not taken up other class abilities from every class aswell as the fact that same classes got higher dodge/parry and what not than other classes, this discussion would take another three A4s then. Just took a plain look at the passives now.

---------- Post added 2013-05-07 at 07:29 AM ----------

As far as LFR vs Heroic goes... pretty sure timers stay the same, and it's still easier to get a sotr off than it is to get a deathstrike bubble or a shield barrier off mind you, one melee hit too early, those two get wasted for the actual big hit, sotr will still stand tall though. All you have to do it watch the dbm timer or check for the castbar and use your sotr, other tanks dont get it any easier, they all get the additional mechanics.

Druids have the highest passive mitigation because they have no active mitigation, just an dodge and self-heal (See no absorbs), they have a damage reduction on melee autoattacks but thats it, no impact on the big bursts of ToT. They do fine on autoattacks, it's just that it's the abiltity hits that kill you. Your druid might have taken 13 stacks of the bleeding debuff, but thats not the important debuff, the talon rake is (I suppose you dont mean 13 talon rakes because thats impossible to survive), but other classes will always be able to take more stacks than the druid will because they can time their active mitigations on such attacks, paladins being the kings by -far-. I'm saying druids need something to deal with this big weakness.

What you are saying is that driving a car and F1 car is the same thing because your turn the wheels with your hands in both.

And yes, referring to talon rake, who even cares about the bleed? Druid is just wrecking me on those stacks as we have tried several weeks to take different numbers of them, druid can take several more stacks than I can as a paladin, granted, I am not stacking mastery or stam, stacking those would allow me take a couple of more stacks, but as it stands he is completely wrecking me on those stacks.

---------- Post added 2013-05-07 at 07:34 AM ----------

I remember them being pretty ordinary if not underpowered in most of Cata.

First tier they were gods, second tier mediocre, third tier, meeeeh, what is paladins?

---------- Post added 2013-05-07 at 07:41 AM ----------

Our bear never had an issue, Had SD up, if he didn't dodge, hit a vengeance and 2pc empowered Frenzied regen. If he did dodge it (which he usually did) he just continued on with his day. Other tanks may be "weaker" than prot paladins (which I don't agree, they all bring some type of raid utility that is better than most of what paladins have imo. Esp brewmasters, those guards from ox status are insane).

And yes, pretty much what bubba says here. As far as tanks go, BRM is incredibly strong right now, their ox statue is insane, far better healing and less situational healing than paladins. Personally I like to have a paladin/brm as main tank and a druid/warrior as off tank as druids/warrior are not as vengeance dependant as other classes. DKs fall short simply due to their lack of raid utility. All other tanks provide some great benefit for the raid, sadly DKs dont have that. Druids raid utility is not 'great', but I think still it is enough with what they have to pull them far ahead of dks.

I would argue that if you look purely at the tank part, BRMs are the strongest, sadly, bosses is not really hitting that hard this tier, tanking is not really an issue (hence a ton of paladins are stacking haste over stamina), simply because the tanking, is not that hard. If you can survive a boss fight, the only job you got left as a tank is to deal more damage. So as long as tanking is not difficult, the discussion of what tank can tank the hardest is kinda mute, it only falls back to who have the biggest raid utility and highest damage output.

[matthias9742]

Viromand, you seem to be crafting each of your posts like someone is saying the other tanks can't do the job for raids and I am sure most people could tell you that is simply not true. However, while all animals are equal, some are more equal than others in the case of the way ShotR interacts with bosses, and how haste/vengeance scale for all paladin abilities.
Mione's post while rather lame is true, paladins are not the low man on the totem pole for damage taken. DKs take that spotlight since they have a 10% DR passive while having no shield for block. Armor is usually the same among the other tanks except for a druid with their mastery.

[Deleted]

Viromand, you seem to be crafting each of your posts like someone is saying the other tanks can't do the job for raids and I am sure most people could tell you that is simply not true. However, while all animals are equal, some are more equal than others in the case of the way ShotR interacts with bosses, and how haste/vengeance scale for all paladin abilities.
Mione's post while rather lame is true, paladins are not the low man on the totem pole for damage taken. DKs take that spotlight since they have a 10% DR passive while having no shield for block. Armor is usually the same among the other tanks except for a druid with their mastery.

DKS got a ton more stamina and armor than both paladins and warriors, and paladins damage reduction is only 15%. Try again.

I agree that DKs are the weakest tanks right now, but that is not because of their tanking abilities, just their lack of raid utility and how badly they function in symbiosis with other tanks. Crafting a new raid team at the moment and when looking at the tanks, that was just what we said straight out, no dks, they provide nothing to the raid. As I play paladin it stand between getting a warrior, druid or BRM, they all have their own strengths. Warriors are insanely strong off tanks, intervene and safe guard allows to you cheese soooo many mechanics that it is not even funny, people talk about BoP and SotR all the time, they forget about safe guard, not to mention their mobility, rallying cry and battle standards. The only drawback they have is how low their damage output is in comparison to other tanks, if they had the same damage output, it would not even be a question.
Druids are just insanely strong tanks, they are so strong on single target tanking and just makes healers life easy, however they lack a bit in raid utility. We already got enough symbiosis so that won't really help us, tooth and claw is nice (and very underrated, never even hear people mention it), but still kinda opting out from druids since warriors / BRMs are a much better choice. The benefit of druids is that their DPS off specs are kinda nice for those solo tank fights.
The last option is a BRM, BRMs are just very strong, dps output is high, best raid healing of all tanks, movement, kiting, AoE tanking, snap threat, the damage mitigation of a good BRM is not really that balanced, it is way to strong. The problem I have with BRM is that they work much in the same way as a paladin, they both fit the main tank role making them kinda awkward to play together and their dps off spec is not really great.

So I do not know really which tank to pair up with at the moment, I think that either it is gonna be a warrior (because their utility and natural off tank role) or a druid (because their dps off spec).
Feels like the best tank combos atm is paladin/brm + warrior/druid.

[Viromand]

And yes, referring to talon rake, who even cares about the bleed? Druid is just wrecking me on those stacks as we have tried several weeks to take different numbers of them, druid can take several more stacks than I can as a paladin, granted, I am not stacking mastery or stam, stacking those would allow me take a couple of more stacks, but as it stands he is completely wrecking me on those stacks.

The infected talon dot can be HoPed,but you ahve to care about them, it does 30k/3s that 10kdps you take from dots, as a druid i get max 3-4 stacks before they run out, a pala easily gets up to 8-10 stacks. Its naturedmg. So a talon rake with 2 or 3 stacks plus a big infacted talons tick, is the main reason tanks die. with 9 stacks you take 270k dmg with 15% magicreduction thats 230k.

[britishbubba]

I would argue that if you look purely at the tank part, BRMs are the strongest, sadly, bosses is not really hitting that hard this tier, tanking is not really an issue (hence a ton of paladins are stacking haste over stamina), simply because the tanking, is not that hard. If you can survive a boss fight, the only job you got left as a tank is to deal more damage. So as long as tanking is not difficult, the discussion of what tank can tank the hardest is kinda mute, it only falls back to who have the biggest raid utility and highest damage output.

That's because they made this teirs bosses much more about tank mechanics or positioning than they did about damage intake. Damage intake for a tank in this expansion should NEVER be a worry if:

1) they're properly geared for the content (which isn't exactly new. Relevant gear has always been important)
2) they use AM properly.

Personally I think this is a good thing, and is most likely why paladins seem strong. Since haste works so well for them, people see them doing a bunch of damage and healing (the majority of which is over-healing and self healing, but no one calls DKs op) and for some reason that means they have to be over powered.

Tanks are now more about executing what is essentially a DPS rotation with the purpose of generating some resource (Holy power, Rage, Runic power, Chi) which allows them to do more damage, and reduce their damage taken.

Paladins and monks just happened to get the best serving of this, followed by Warriors, then sadly you get the clunky mechanics of death knight (which really hasn't changed since Cata) and druid.

Paladins seem to have just become the scapegoat for people that don't want to adapt to the new playstyle of tanks and want to just keep trying to play like it's cata and wonder why they go splat when they don't hit Shield block. Monks are arguably so much stronger than paladins that it's not even funny, but so few people play them that no one sees them, while EVERYONE plays a paladin.

Only things I can even argue are op on a paladin are Holy avenger (situational) and sacred shield (which why would you ever cry OP? They can put it on the other tank scaling off the PALADINs vengeance. You should be HAPPY that it's strong).

[Viromand]

Crafting a new raid team at the moment and when looking at the tanks, that was just what we said straight out, no dks, they provide nothing to the raid.

The exact same thing i said after we kicked our Palatank^^

Viromand, you seem to be crafting each of your posts like someone is saying the other tanks can't do the job for raids and I am sure most people could tell you that is simply not true. However, while all animals are equal, some are more equal than others in the case of the way ShotR interacts with bosses, and how haste/vengeance scale for all paladin abilities.
Mione's post while rather lame is true, paladins are not the low man on the totem pole for damage taken. DKs take that spotlight since they have a 10% DR passive while having no shield for block. Armor is usually the same among the other tanks except for a druid with their mastery.

First, alot here say exactly that, that you cant kill some bosses without palatanks. Or a 500ilvl palatank takes less dmg than a 522 protwarrior, and not even taking into account that the other 9 players maybe played better.

I know sometimes im wrong, i was really sure druids had 25% physical reduction aswell.
Dks are also designed to take dmg heal, the more they take the more they heal. Plus that heal giving them an absorb. Jsut because they cant block, they dont suck. you have to see the class as a whole.

Paladins take a bit more dmg compensates that with strong selfhealing, really strong scaling on heal and absorb, and even if they have a bit less magic reduction they have strong cds for magic dmg. And AM thats works on all physical attacks.

As a druid you want to take as less dmg as possible. very high dodge, lots of armor. Plus the extras from symbiosis. You have very stong selfheal(with 2t15 even stronger the amount is insane with or without) if you do get dmg. high magicdmg reduction as passiv. And a shield that blocks meleedmg from bosses, which is stackable too take even less dmg. Plus dodging often prevents bosses from proccing.

You cant say Druids have no absorb they take more dmg, DKs dont have shields they cant block so they suck. All tanks are almost equal with palas and monk beeing a bit better this tier