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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Prokk View Post
    Tank stuff.
    This. It's been proven that all of the tank classes are 100% viable. It just depends on how you use their strengths and weaknesses to benefit the raid. Some tanks provide more raid utility than others. You can play a more offensive style tank (Paladin, Warrior, Monk) or a defensive style take (Druid/DK). Either way, if you are a good tank, you can/will extend that skill difference between you and a mediocre/average tank.

    10N - Top 100 Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000
    10N - All Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000

    10H - Top 100 Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000
    10H - All Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000

    25N - Top 100 Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000
    25N - All Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000

    25H - Top 100 Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000
    25H - All Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000

    For Top 100, only on heroic does Prot Paladin beat out Brewmaster Monk. In fact, on All Parses, Prot Paladin doesn't beat Monk/Druid on anything other than 25H.



  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prokk View Post
    Prot Paladins will never be nerfed. They are very overpowered in the hands of the right player. A player who knows the ins and outs of its class. Any tank class can be played at such a level that it is overpowered, granted some tank classes don't have the utility that Prot Paladins or Prot Warriors do. All types of tank classes are used in many high end heroic raiding guilds and are used by players who can play them to their maximum potential.
    You can say that about any tank class. The reason this isnt a 'Why have BrM Monks not been nerfed?' thread is because at this point in the expansion, most of the people who are making progress on their raid teams as a monk are very good players and know their class very well. Pallies (obviously) have been around longer and for the most part people know what to expect from them in terms of being a tank and what they bring to the raid group.

    I play a BrM, and our OT is a pally only because I'm so strong with my monk that I can handle extra duties while not taking a shit ton of damage. Granted, our group is only 3/12 right now, but tanking isn't our issue. In fact, there have been some fights where I've flat out carried our entire group just due to my utility and damage output as well as not taking a lot of damage and popping CDs at the right time.

    Could Pallies do the same thing? Of course, but I want to reiterate that all of the poorer played monks have either rerolled because it's too confusing to play, or they're just not in current content. Like someone said earlier, the big reason why we haven't seen OP Monk threads is because the visibility of Monk tanks is very low, and the results can be skewed because most of the progressed monks are played by people who know their class.

    I think Paladins are fine where they are, but I'm enjoying the shit out of my monk right now before the nerfs come for us. Monks are SUPER strong.
    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

  3. #363
    There are probably more Holy and Ret paladins than there are Prot. While there are a lot of terrible Protection Paladins, there are a decent number of good/great ones who are skewing the audience a bit. Any tank who knows their class, and how to optimize/maximize is going to shine compared to random joe blow who doesn't know to not gear for dodge/parry for paladins.



  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuna View Post
    Wait why is this still even going on, hasn't blizz nerfed prot paladins via weakening Glyph of Battle Healer and capping vengeance? And honestly unless you're in a world first candidate guild why even go about comparing tanks. Even at the highest levels of skill you see all tank classes played, perhaps a few more than others (paladins and monks got slightly more popular than the others), but still all tanks are played. DREAM Paragon, the objectively best 10 man guild in the world has a Guardian Druid in spite of the fact that many people seem to be convinced that guardians are walking garbage.

    The only thing imbalanced about paladins is definitely the Hand of Protection + Clemency combo, it's simply too strong, and that's not even a prot thing.
    Nice quote about paragon having a guardian druid, but i read one of their interviews, the guardian druid was there only to soak up stacks and do dps, whenever he didnt need to soak some stacks tank, the paladin was tanking full-time. They used their druid as a dps machine and for tooth&claw procs.

  5. #365
    Blademaster Prokk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    Pallies (obviously) have been around longer and for the most part people know what to expect from them in terms of being a tank and what they bring to the raid group.
    If this was true, this thread would not have been started.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    play a BrM, and our OT is a pally only because I'm so strong with my monk that I can handle extra duties while not taking a shit ton of damage. Granted, our group is only 3/12 right now
    #bestmonkUSA right here

    "I am Rei Shen, prease!!"

  6. #366
    It's not only that paladins are extremely good tanks, it's also their superior utility compared to other tanks.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    This. It's been proven that all of the tank classes are 100% viable. It just depends on how you use their strengths and weaknesses to benefit the raid. Some tanks provide more raid utility than others. You can play a more offensive style tank (Paladin, Warrior, Monk) or a defensive style take (Druid/DK). Either way, if you are a good tank, you can/will extend that skill difference between you and a mediocre/average tank.

    10N - Top 100 Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000
    10N - All Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000

    10H - Top 100 Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000
    10H - All Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000

    25N - Top 100 Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000
    25N - All Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000

    25H - Top 100 Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000
    25H - All Spec Score: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00011111000000

    For Top 100, only on heroic does Prot Paladin beat out Brewmaster Monk. In fact, on All Parses, Prot Paladin doesn't beat Monk/Druid on anything other than 25H.
    Howeveron if you scroll down you will see why paladins are topping top 100. They are the only class with a full sample size. You see that paladins have 100% sample size while the others only have about 80-90% samplesize which pushes paladins ahead. If the other tanks also had full sample size, they would probably be higher, as I was studying all the dps specs when ToT released and what I noticed from normal mode parses was that specs with non-full sample size got lower dps.

    So those heroic top100 is not 100% accurate, the other links are more accurate.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #368
    Blademaster Prokk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Howeveron if you scroll down you will see why paladins are topping top 100. They are the only class with a full sample size. You see that paladins have 100% sample size while the others only have about 80-90% samplesize which pushes paladins ahead. If the other tanks also had full sample size, they would probably be higher, as I was studying all the dps specs when ToT released and what I noticed from normal mode parses was that specs with non-full sample size got lower dps.

    So those heroic top100 is not 100% accurate, the other links are more accurate.

    This. Also, when going through several logs on heroic encounters, Prot Paladins are not always at the top. For example, compare damage output from Heroic Horridon or Heroic Iron Qon... Brewmasters are right up there with them. A few prot warriors are right up there as well. Find the logs, break them down, and you will see the difference.

    "I am Rei Shen, prease!!"

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prokk View Post
    If this was true, this thread would not have been started.



    #bestmonkUSA right here
    Because a thread has never been started by someone who was unsure of what they were talking about?

    Granted, I'm not the best player in the world but I consider myself to be very good and I make the most of what I'm given. That's a whole different issue. All I'm saying is, Pallies are strong, yes, but other tanks can be just as useful, if not more so.

    However, as most people are pointing out, a lot of people cannot put context with the information they are given from a healing/dps meter, and they freak out due to various reasons.
    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    However, as most people are pointing out, a lot of people cannot put context with the information they are given from a healing/dps meter, and they freak out due to various reasons.
    If this thread had a TL;DR, that'd be it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Howeveron
    On a completely unrelated topic, what is Howeveron for a word? I like inventingon new words.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyen View Post
    Nice quote about paragon having a guardian druid, but i read one of their interviews, the guardian druid was there only to soak up stacks and do dps, whenever he didnt need to soak some stacks tank, the paladin was tanking full-time. They used their druid as a dps machine and for tooth&claw procs.
    A that interview after they cleared 5.0. They said that about Sha second phase, due to higher vengeance scaling of the protpala and the druid beeing ableto do more dmg to the adds. BUT!!! sejta also stated in the same interview that druids can tank every boss on heroic in that tier without any problems.

    With a Druid/pala comp thats how you do it. You let pala get vengeacne and still do 100k dps without hotw on all fights.

    Yeah T&C is atleast 100k absorb on leishen normal first two phases, per stack. no vengeance abuse with debuff. High RPS druids its almost not problem maintining SD and using alot of T&C. If it would show up on hps meter, people will go crazy, druids so op pls nerf. Oh and without vengeance its 32k with my 522 gear, for the other tank aswell. now add that to hps aswell, cause as an offtank you use it every time it proccs.
    Doesnt show up on logs so druids dont have it. dodging one attack, and getting two procs will almost negate the next melee that you dont dodge. I remember after our heroic stoneguard kill all my mates were like, wow druid does 45k hps, healing himself almost as mucha healer, so op. just cause they didnt know any other tanking class does almost the same amount.

    i never seen a good monk, trust me i tried, but they just sucked all of them. Still Im not saying monk sucks balls. cause i know what they can do.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-07 at 10:28 PM.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post

    i never seen a good monk, trust me i tried, but they just sucked all of them. Still Im not saying monk sucks balls. cause i know what they can do.
    I wonder why Riggnaros is playing Brewmaster then.

  14. #374
    Protection

    Shield of the Righteous now reduces the physical damage you take by 25, down from 30.


    Well, was bound to happen but lame.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuckels View Post
    Well, was bound to happen but lame.
    Prior to mastery scaling, so just a 5% redux. My ShotR goes from 50% to 45%, and battle healer heals the voodoo gnomes for 50% less. Sky is not falling, but hopefully this will appease the nerf-bat and pitchfork wielding masses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  16. #376
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Prior to mastery scaling, so just a 5% redux. My ShotR goes from 50% to 45%, and battle healer heals the voodoo gnomes for 50% less. Sky is not falling, but hopefully this will appease the nerf-bat and pitchfork wielding masses.
    I don't like this nerf. Those calling for nerfs are the meter-whores who don't like a Protadin or Brewmaster ahead of them on DPS/heals (even if half of those were absorbs) and while this nerf will have impact on us it will not get reflected on the meters (not like these people look at damage taken) so yeah, they'll still be crying for nerfs come 5.3

    EDIT:

    Last person I saw calling for Paladin nerfs was actually a Brewmaster who couldn't handle WoE HC and said Protadins could 'cuz they were overpowered. Funny enough, our hunter brought in his monk ALT and managed to tank the encounter a lot better and caused no issues to the healers.

    I know calling for nerfs is a quick way to vent frustration but sometimes the issue is not in the game - it's between the chair and the keyboard.


  17. #377
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    Because a thread has never been started by someone who was unsure of what they were talking about?

    Granted, I'm not the best player in the world but I consider myself to be very good and I make the most of what I'm given. That's a whole different issue. All I'm saying is, Pallies are strong, yes, but other tanks can be just as useful, if not more so.

    However, as most people are pointing out, a lot of people cannot put context with the information they are given from a healing/dps meter, and they freak out due to various reasons.
    Not sure I agree with this. Cause no other tank can cheese mechanics with HoP and in this Tier HoP is just lol. Again, any Paladin spec can do that but we're talking Prot Paladins and they become so much more valuable due to this.

  18. #378
    No class should be able to 1 tank bosses so effectively without outside help while at the same time doing awesome HEALING and DAMAGE...

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    No class should be able to 1 tank bosses so effectively without outside help while at the same time doing awesome HEALING and DAMAGE...
    And that's mostly because they can quickly drop stacks ala HoP. Technically, if you had a holy or ret paladin in the raid and good co-ordination, you could do the same thing with any tanking class and a cancelaura macro.

    That's a strong gimmick, true, but I don't think they can tank every single encounter solo.

    Feel free to prove me wrong.

  20. #380
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    No class should be able to 1 tank bosses so effectively without outside help while at the same time doing awesome HEALING and DAMAGE...
    As been said so many times before, dmg done and healing done by Prot Paladins is being misread by a lot of people. Equal geared Paladin will not do the same amount of dmg as a Monk or a Guardian and most of the Paladins healing goes to himself. So it's not what really makes the difference. The difference is the amount of raid utility which is being enforced by shitty raid design that lets your cheese mechanics with HoP.

    That said, I still think it's very OP that Paladins have both Ardent Defender and LoH with AM and Lights Hammer as well. The thing is, that Paladins don't have to sacrifice anything to use their utility compared to Guardians for example. If I want to use HotW Tranq, I have to go out of form=Dropping all Vengeance and Rage and I can't do it, if I'm tanking.

    As I've said several times before, it's not so much Prot Paladin as it's game mechanics allowing them to be OP and the fact that atm Paladins and Monks are probably more "up to date" than the other tanking classes. What I mean by this, is that Warrior and DK dps seems "out of date", it's too low when compared to other tanking classes and specially on 10 man tank dps is very important. Guardians still have the archaic design of not being able to cast vital abilities in form - Dispel, Tranq, CR, Innervate and Mark of the Wild.

    But that's not really a "Prot Paladins are OP" issue, that's an issue with other tanking classes and thus other tanking classes should be looked at in stead of just blindly nerfing Paladins (though I do think the nerf was justified).

    I'd also like to remind people, that currently Monks, Paladins and Guardians have gear with dps stats, making the gap between them and DK/Warrior so much bigger. Paladins going with a Haste build, Guardians going for an RPS build vs. the old school DK/Warrior tanking stats. That makes threat an issue and the difference in dps between the tanks become so much more visible. So yeah, I believe that's also part of the reason why people think Paladins are OP.
    Last edited by Danishpsycho; 2013-05-08 at 03:56 AM.

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