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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by annarion View Post
    As someone who played a DK tank for most of WotLK, I'll have to disagree with you. Only DKs and Bears could tank Sarth+3 when it was current. Prot paladins have always had the best toys to play with, but they've not always been the tank of choice. And considering only Warriors could tank Illidan, it's not always been the case that they have the best toys ever. No, I more think that the kit that prot pallies have is far less situational than that of other tanks. Also druids have always been bullshit, jtlyk. They've had their stamina bonus and dps nerfed more times than I can remember. And people are right, you could do any of those things with just a ret in your group and communication.

    You cant compare Tanks with other expansions. Each time they changed so much. They reason you Druids and DK tanked sarth 3d was due to the incredible high amount of Stamina they had. Its much closer now then it was back than. Now AM is what tanking is about.

    Back in BC the only two tanks you could use where Druids and Warriors, you jsut wanted a pala for third boss in sunwell and MH trash. Not seen a single tankpala in WotLK, tbh.

    Still you cant compare between expansions.


    @firefly: I would wonder if T&C would show up on the meters and sacred shield would not. Would paladins get the mastery buff that druids got and druids the AM nerf. This thread would be so full of druid op crys.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    @firefly: I would wonder if T&C would show up on the meters and sacred shield would not. Would paladins get the mastery buff that druids got and druids the AM nerf. This thread would be so full of druid op crys.
    Could be possible, but I would like to have faith in that the people in charge of class balance have more thought behind their logic than the people in this thread and actually understand how the classes works and looks deeper than the first layer of damage meters.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Back in BC the only two tanks you could use where Druids and Warriors, you jsut wanted a pala for third boss in sunwell and MH trash. Not seen a single tankpala in WotLK, tbh.
    Still you cant compare between expansions.
    Wait wait wait....WAT? No tank pal in LK?! Umm, Holy Wrath on H Anub and H LK was like MANDATORY. 9-6-9 was basically AFK to win...Not saying that's good/fun (it's NOT!), but there were more Protpals than pretty much anything back then (minus Protwar maybe). Maybe it was a US vs EU thing?

    Anyway, as stated time and again, because the Protpal raid utility/healing shows up on meters, people overlook the tangible benefits of other tanks. Nothing new, people see what they want to see and use selective info/data to prove or prop up a point. Still keeping the faith (lol, get it?!) that devs and balancers will approach upcoming changes from the point of bringing other tanks UP, not bringing monk/pal DOWN (and BACKWARDS towards passive/D+P style).

    Also, get rid of dodge/parry gear.
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  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    You're taking what I said out of context, well done. Ofc it's an issue for Guardians, when we have a Tier of bosses with abilities that can 1 shot you, but one way of negating that is changing your build. HotW, get some more Stam for EH and have your CD's ready.

    Again, you took what I said out of context. Cbf repeating myself or explaining why I mentioned it. Go back and read......
    I don't feel like I took anything out of context. You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    As I've said several times before, it's not so much Prot Paladin as it's game mechanics allowing them to be OP and the fact that atm Paladins and Monks are probably more "up to date" than the other tanking classes. What I mean by this, is that Warrior and DK dps seems "out of date", it's too low when compared to other tanking classes and specially on 10 man tank dps is very important. Guardians still have the archaic design of not being able to cast vital abilities in form - Dispel, Tranq, CR, Innervate and Mark of the Wild.
    And I said I think those are the least of a Guardian's worries. I would worry more about what tanks need: survivability, not archaic design of niche abilities. Maybe you have a point with some of them but they would not be at the top of my list of worries when comparing them to what makes Prot Paladins OP (which is exactly what you do).

    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    An additional remove for curse/dots on Horridon progression comes actually quite handy compared to hitting another damaging style. Our monk tank has regulary 8-10 dispells on is belt on this fight and our dps'ing shaman/mage ~5. Now imagine you'd have none of those classes, in the end everything counts.
    Sure, it would be nice, but it's extremely situational (removal of a curse would be useful for one fight in this entire expansion so far). Personally I wouldn't argue about the need to remove curse in form and instead call for a change in the design of the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    And having your only CR on the tank can be really awful (depending on boss mechanics) as well, and for tranq... well all other tanks raid cooldowns can be popped without much thinking, for this you need *some* preperation.
    It's not impossible to BR without leaving form. NS it.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Could be possible, but I would like to have faith in that the people in charge of class balance have more thought behind their logic than the people in this thread and actually understand how the classes works and looks deeper than the first layer of damage meters.
    I doubt they have that class of insight, or they wouldn't have gone with irrelevant random changes. They just gave this tier as lost in regards to balance. If they intend to change anything, it will be via 5.4 and raid mechanics.

    I have no doubt that the next tier will be as disastrous, though. Enjoy your expansion.

  6. #406
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dysheki View Post
    I don't feel like I took anything out of context. You said:


    And I said I think those are the least of a Guardian's worries. I would worry more about what tanks need: survivability, not archaic design of niche abilities. Maybe you have a point with some of them but they would not be at the top of my list of worries when comparing them to what makes Prot Paladins OP (which is exactly what you do).


    Sure, it would be nice, but it's extremely situational (removal of a curse would be useful for one fight in this entire expansion so far). Personally I wouldn't argue about the need to remove curse in form and instead call for a change in the design of the fight.


    It's not impossible to BR without leaving form. NS it.
    I do believe it was taken out of its context. Cause I was explaining why I believe Prot Paladins are being considered so OP this Tier in comparison to other tanking classes and thus I was making a comparison when it come to utility. I didn't mention survivability a single time, cause honestly I don't even feel Guardian survivability is an issue.

    But when a whole Tier of bosses favor things Paladin utility, then yes, other tanking classes fall short when comparing said utility.

    About NS as instant CR, what a fucking waste to only take NS for an instant CR. Meaning you'd either take your chance and hope it's ready when you need it or just don't use it at all, in case you might need it.

  7. #407
    If your tank is the only one with BR. that would mean you dont have a Holypala WL hunter Dk or another druid in your raid. So that means you have 1 tankdruid and the rest of the raid is monk rougue shaman mage priest and paladin that is not heal.

    even than its not impossible to rezz as a druid on alot of nh fights you two tank the boss, so no prob there. And if you raid heroic you should consider an extra class with br. there are 4 classes which can BR and 1 in holyspec if you have a druid giving him symbiosis. so thats 5. Its really rare to not have one. And NS is a 1min cooldown and a strong selfheal aswell. And lets not forget as a druid you can use rejuv in bearform while hotw is active and its not "that bad".

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    If your tank is the only one with BR. that would mean you dont have a Holypala WL hunter Dk or another druid in your raid. So that means you have 1 tankdruid and the rest of the raid is monk rougue shaman mage priest and paladin that is not heal.

    even than its not impossible to rezz as a druid on alot of nh fights you two tank the boss, so no prob there. And if you raid heroic you should consider an extra class with br. there are 4 classes which can BR and 1 in holyspec if you have a druid giving him symbiosis. so thats 5. Its really rare to not have one. And NS is a 1min cooldown and a strong selfheal aswell. And lets not forget as a druid you can use rejuv in bearform while hotw is active and its not "that bad".
    Maybe you only have 1 other CR and it is that guy that died

    It is unlikely, but it can happen.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Maybe you only have 1 other CR and it is that guy that died

    It is unlikely, but it can happen.
    Back in Firelands/DS at times we had one CR in the ten man raid. And that guy died sometimes.
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  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Maybe you only have 1 other CR and it is that guy that died

    It is unlikely, but it can happen.
    Yeah. But still CR and remove curse are the least of our problems, and bufffing that would change nothing. IF you are the only one with CR use NS. IF your other CR dies all the time take NS. With RPS gear the difference between 2 NS heals is not that big compared to the 2min cd oh shit button.

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Also, get rid of dodge/parry gear.
    I wouldn't be surprised if this happens in the next expansion. Blizzard likes the idea and its one less way for people that don't know any better to gimp themselves, not to mention the obvious loot table improvement for Normal/Heroic raiders.

  12. #412
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Anyway, as stated time and again, because the Protpal raid utility/healing shows up on meters, people overlook the tangible benefits of other tanks. Nothing new, people see what they want to see and use selective info/data to prove or prop up a point. Still keeping the faith (lol, get it?!) that devs and balancers will approach upcoming changes from the point of bringing other tanks UP, not bringing monk/pal DOWN (and BACKWARDS towards passive/D+P style).
    Being able to take care of your own health better than a healer can is wrong.

    Flat out.

    Pretty much every paladin argument on this thread that argues they're fine can be watered down to "don't nerf me, bro".

    And you all know it.

  13. #413
    As a prot paladin myself i dont care how OP we are, we`re fucking boring to play and i am so sick of blizz not improving our gameplay and just making it brainless faceroll.

    I dont care if we`re being nerfed, just atleast compensate for it, make prot paladins fun to play.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Being able to take care of your own health better than a healer can is wrong.

    Flat out.

    Pretty much every paladin argument on this thread that argues they're fine can be watered down to "don't nerf me, bro".

    And you all know it.

    Quit the rubbish comments. Paladins don't heal themselves more than healers do. Not even close. Theres valid complaints about prots and theres jealous bullshit. Your comment falls into the second category.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Being able to take care of your own health better than a healer can is wrong.

    Flat out.

    Pretty much every paladin argument on this thread that argues they're fine can be watered down to "don't nerf me, bro".

    And you all know it.
    We can only do a massive WoG about every 30 seconds.

    SoI heals for about 25k every ~3 seconds (8k hps) at 10m levels of vengeance
    SS does about 20k hps at 10m levels of vengeance (100k shield every 5 seconds)

    If you are only taking damage that under 30k hps can out-heal, you aren't running in MoP raid content.
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  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Being able to take care of your own health better than a healer can is wrong.

    Flat out.

    Pretty much every paladin argument on this thread that argues they're fine can be watered down to "don't nerf me, bro".

    And you all know it.
    this is bullshit. not even close to true unless you're running old ass content and even then if you don't have the veng to support it, it's not happening.

  17. #417
    Brewmaster Well's Avatar
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    We did Durumu with our Druid solo tanking it and our hpala specing to clemency. I am not aware of ppalas doing excessive raid healing though.
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  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    I am not aware of ppalas doing excessive raid healing though.
    They don't. People that don't know how to mouse-over the entry in Skada/recount have no idea that only about 10-15% of the Paladin tank's healing was on the raid (and most of it went to somebody's voodoo gnomes or fire elemental).
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  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    They don't. People that don't know how to mouse-over the entry in Skada/recount have no idea that only about 10-15% of the Paladin tank's healing was on the raid (and most of it went to somebody's voodoo gnomes or fire elemental).
    But I have been told that paladins are like having an extra healer. Skada confirms this.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    But I have been told that paladins are like having an extra healer. Skada confirms this.
    First I've heard of it.
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