Makes damage meaningful and still scales with gear.
If it results in tank damage being too low (which I doubt), we can just bump base damage and increase Battle Exhaustion's pvp effect to make tanks do 50% damage as well, or whatever.
I'm all for having tanks be competitive with DPS, doing meaningful amounts of damage, but I don't think vengeance is the way to do it. On one hand, you can have a low vengeance fight like Megaera where you are just another melee dps, versus Ra-den where (if single tanked) we do more damage than any DPS can hope to achieve before the next expansion. The occasional Ra-den is fine, just like Jin'rokh is really nice for rogues or Durumu for ele shaman, but when tanks are untouchable as top damage for over half the fights in a tier and still competitive for all the others, then it's sort of like wtf.
Agreed, but it feels somewhat counterproductive to take more damage just so you can deal more/meet the dps check easier. My partner tank and I do it all the time, but I'll be the first to admit it gets us killed far more often than if we played "properly." It doesn't help that vengeance doesn't actually work the way it's advertised (based only off the unmitigated swing of the boss): If you /sit before a swing, you get more vengeance than if you were to take it normally. If you zen med a decapitate you get twice as much vengeance compared to if you just guarded through it. If you have a damage taken increased debuff, you get more vengeance. Some aoes (Lei Shen's discharge) ignore vengeance and doesn't update it, while Ra-Den's phase 2 aoe does. There's a whole host of buggy and stupid mechanics associated with vengeance.My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
Running with Mione on this, since I don't really want to go back in and re-re-quote everything again. Plus he has some good sentiments that echo my points.
While I lament the fact that the player base has devolved to needing training wheels in the form on vengeance to prop up poor play, even WITH a huge passive threat modifier, the fact is that the majority of the audience (and revenue source) needs these tools to function. I don't think it's good, and dont support it for this purpose, but there is not really anything else you CAN have, short of just buffing threat to the point that auto-attacks hold aggro. This is why I'd like to see logarithmic scaling of vengeance, with a quick ramp up and a low ceiling, to keep numbers fine for "casual" content without creating huge disparities and balance nightmares at heroic/progression levels.For helping shitty geared tanks to hold threat in 5-mans. You can't have LFR/LFD and the basics of tanking being hard to accomplish at the same time. With LFR/LFD, any moron that plays his class for the first time needs to be able to hold threat easily.
While fun is subjective, I think that *most* everyone will agree that tangible or visceral rewards are fun. Fun doesn't have to be topping meters (and I agree that we shouldn't be that high unless a gimmick like Alys), but certainly something more meaningful than spamming sunder armor can be accomplished.For fun. You might say it's subjective to compete for higher DPS, but I call bullshit. The LK model had tanks doing kay-ish damage (resulting in PvP issues@above), but no-one wants to go back to BC levels where your abilities do nothing at all and you just spam debuffs that do more threat than your actual damage. The MoP model has issues as well (tanks do absurd amounts of damage), but that's not just Vengeance, as DKs and Warriors are not guilty of this despite it.
Care to admit it or not, this is truth. It simply, mechanically and logically stands to reason that if you can and do survive the encounter, keep the boss in the right place, and assist with utility as the class is able, all that you can do to increase you value to the raid is to increase your throughput. Now, if you have tank A, who has perfect boss placement, CD usage, and raid utility but does 50k DPS, and tank B who is spiky as hell, gets melee cleaved or OOR, and does 150k DPS, we can all agree that tank A is the better choice. The real issue comes when you have 2 tank A's, but one doing more damage than the other. Ceteris paribus, the higher dps tank is the "better" tank, simply because he does more of one thing, while doing the same of the rest. That skill cap is just now more pronounced with Veng. If this was LK, you'd see a much smaller delta between a good and great tank, simply because of the scaling. Sometimes, it could be so small as to not be noticed; not being noticed, when busting your ass, is a great way to feel unrewarded. Now, do we need a HUGE delta? Nope. And that's why I've suggested the changes above to ramp-up and ceiling of vengeance, to preserve the skill cap while keeping numbers sane.And finally, the MoP version allows for a higher skillcap. Your tanking philosophy might be to achieve the least damage taken possible, personally as a tank I've never had that goal - ever. My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
This is what I was trying to ask, but as it seems that Vell and I have established a vitriolic rapport, I can understand that I likely won't get a reply. But, I still would be curious if there is a better, easier or more elegant solution than what we have in place.Blizzard has explicitly said they didn't want to copy-paste Death Strike. How would you provide values for abilities like SBar/FR/SoI/WoG/Expel Harm/etc, making them scale depending on the encounter, without relying on:
- damage taken over the last X seconds
- vengeance? (which is pretty much the delayed version of damage taken anyway)
I'm genuinely curious.
**Edit: I will note that with the 5.3 changes to FC's in RBGs, Blizz may be trying to finally kill off the tank spec in PVP period. They've already said basically that "if tanks enjoy PVP, nobody else does". You've got 3 options: Survival, Control, Damage. Pick 2. Tanks, prior to veng changes/removal had all 3. Tanks in LK also had all 3 (at varying times). If they remove tanks period, the game will surely continue, but until then I still assert that vengeance serves as a tuning knob for their "balance".
Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-15 at 07:42 PM.
Why did a "nerf paladins omg" thread turn into a "nerf vengeance omg i cant outdps my tank" thread?
Fallout 4 Hype!
This thread should've been a Nerf Vengeance thread. That is where the problem lies, not the class of tank. The mechanic is broken/overpowered and that's why tanks are sometimes at the top of damage meters. Have you seen DPS rankings lately for 25 Heroic? More monks in the top 20 than paladins... I guess monks now need a nerf huh...
"I am Rei Shen, prease!!"
Last edited by Espada; 2013-05-15 at 09:12 PM.
Sacred Shield is big offender for Vengeance abuse. It should not snapshot at all, and each tick should be based on the caster's current Attack Power. It's really stupid to be able to put a really strong 30-second absorb on your co-tank after a taunt-swap.
There really is no way to completely balance tank classes without completely homogenizing every class. Compare a Brewmaster to a Blood DK for Ra-den Fatal Strike. The Blood DK literally has a window that is the size of Ra-den's swing timer to Death Strike so he doesn't die, while a Brewmaster completely ignores Fatal Strike because Shuffle uptime is 100%. In fact I don't think I've seen any Ra-den kills that used a Blood DK main tank.
Either way, I don't actually agree with "nerfing" vengeance so much as re-working it next expansion entirely.
Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-05-15 at 10:25 PM.
Warriors who are doing the most damage (outside of cheesing Vengeance by taking critical strikes sitting down) are the ones who're mitigating the most.
This is a personal opinion, though - I'm not presenting it as a fact.
That, more than anything, tells you that it's not working.
The part of which is most fun still is the AM part. If they take away vengeance but still manage to scale selfhealmechanics so they are not totaly broken in pvp. Each tank should still try to max his dps, its not like tank dmg didnt matter in cata in 10m it did. Spine hc for example. It was just way easier taking less dmg than it is now, or not so idiotic like the druid shield was.
Most of the players that cry protpala is op either dont have one(nor ret or holy), and think they will one shot every heroic if they had one.
On aoe fights or singetank fights tanks will do more dps thats the point of taking only one tank so you can take another dps and the overall dps is higher. If you 1tank a fight but have to take another healer to compensate the extra dmg the tank takes cause he sucks doenst help you at all. On almost all the other fights dps are higher than tanks. I found that dropping a healer and taking another dps is sometimes easier than onetanking the fight.
I am a Prot Pala and a DK tank, and I have to say that both have their strenghts and both have their weaknesses as with all tanks. I cant always get a group setup right to lets say CM with my pala but then again fly trough them with basicly any group setup with my Blood DK. BUT at the same time with a Holy Pala healing my ass I can solo tank all the bosses mentioned on my DK tank and as you already mentioned I know I can do it on my Pala tank.
So now to the OP Pala tanks need no nerfing, as with all tank specs they might need some tweaking, but nerf is out of the question. you said your prot warrior should reroll his prot pala maybe just get yourself a paladin in your raid setup, if you have none maybe that means I am seeing a general problem your group has against us paladins and in that case I will just ignore this post anyway.
Pretty sure that was also intended for tanks, especially given multiple nerfs to the ability for tanks to actually increase DPS by doing so.
As for why it wasn't removed? I think we all know that actually removing that aspect of the game would mean having to rework the Vengeance/AM system beyond what can realistically be done mid-expansion.
---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 01:02 PM ----------
Meaning uncapped vengeance is far, far from "necessary" for this to happen.
@Zell first - since we've got like 12 threads going back and forth, I am fine with a "truce" and return to civil discussion. It's easy to get heated, and get caught up, which we both have admittedly done. I think we both have good arguments, and both have been stubborn on some of them. Ironically, it's entirely possible that by the time you see this in here, you'll be mad at me for something posted somewhere else, but consider this an olive branch returned since you offered one as well.
Additionally, going back to log scaling vengeance with a low cap as suggested prior, I wanted to touch on a comment you made about stam -> dps. If we cap Veng at say, 25% HP, stamina essentially yields 1/4 of an AP at MAX (capped veng). While I will say that this is certainly not zero, I think it's a fairly low value that wouldn't lead to abuse of stam stacking for DPS, purely for the inefficiency. Using this tier, for example, let's assume an 800k HP tank for easy math's sake:
Soul Barrier has 2200 stam (522), meaning it would give ~50k HP (depending on stam modifiers per tank class); This would give 12.5k AP worth of "vengeance ceiling", or potential attack power. You'd still have to actually take damage to reach that level. That means you'd go from 800k HP (and 200k AP ceiling) to 850k HP (and 212.5k AP ceiling), a net change of ~6% maximum potential AP.
Compared to DPS trinkets (using mine here, for reference, as a prot pal) like Spark of Zandalar and Fabled Feather, I'd be giving up 1200-1300 haste (or haste/hit), which is active fulltime regardless of veng/damage levels.
Sure, Stamina also has passive benefits for tanks, and by most game archetypes SHOULD be the go-to stat (until you have "enough"), so it double-dips on usefullness here too, but if 25% is too high, we can ratchet it back down. It could end up being an interesting knob to tune or choice to make for the tank.
Agreed 100%, uncapped (or ceiling near as makes no difference to uncapped) is pointless. Problem is, there doesn't seem to be any more elegant solution to the vengeance idea that I can come up with or have seen.As for why it wasn't removed? I think we all know that actually removing that aspect of the game would mean having to rework the Vengeance/AM system beyond what can realistically be done mid-expansion.
---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 01:02 PM ----------
Right as far as I know, tanks maximizing DPS and possibly tuning gearing, talents (obviously mainly before MOP but even after with the glyph system), and playstyle to increase DPS for marginal survivability drops has always been part of the game.
Meaning uncapped vengeance is far, far from "necessary" for this to happen.
If you have "set values" like we used to in vanilla/BC and really LK too, you have an issue where mid-to-late tier, tanks are so inflated on avoidance (for example) that they take no damage (and can actually do less DPS, prior to the rage changes, for example). Start of the tier is rough because there simply aren't enough stat points available on gear to make non-avoidance based mitigation scale well. Using the MoP model, if we didn't have inflated AP levels from Veng, things like Shield Barr, Sacred Shield, FR, etc would all be very low absorbs/heals simply because our AP as tanks is low (even until very late in the tier). Mitigation from avoidance is low for the same reasons; not enough stat allocation. We COULD make the scaling of these absorbs/heals significantly higher as a baseline in this model, but then you'd have nigh-unkillable tanks in PVP.
As the tier progresses, mitigation picks up. Considerably, as we approach the end of the expansion. Recall block value gear (RIP friend) that eventually let warriors take NO damage. It wasn't uncommon for warriors at the end of BC to so outgear content that they actually had a net decrease in damage done because of rage starvation due to no damage taken. Then we have the CTC debacle in cata, which required intervention by the dev's to prevent "unintended levels of mitigation". Obviously those models have changed, but these are just some examples of how static mitigation has had issues prior.
Using vengeance (judiciously) allows the devs to prop up mitigation at the start of the expansion (via high-powered absorb/heal mechanics) while the rest of the AM systems catch up with gear. Now, I will say that the ceiling is too high and should be cut drastically, but the model is sound in theory other than that. It is a self governing system that prevents *most* of the issues that come with late-tier tank scaling that we saw previously. However, it does trade those for some new issues in it's current iteration, such as the "stand in fire for deepz" abuse.
Ergo, removing environmental contributions to Vengeance, lowering the ceiling to ~20% of tank HP instead of 100%, and ramping up the scaling speed(to allow casual/unskilled players to hold threat in early AND late content) would fix a majority of the current complaints, in my opinion. It would still allow tanks to have a moderate contribution to DPS (and self-HPS when applicable), but not be the overwhelming force they are currently. Coupling that with some changes to tank scaling, like getting rid of D/P as a stat (remaining only via native STR/AGI) and making DK/Warr scale with secondaries like the rest of the tanks, should help to bring DPS parity to the tanks.
Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-16 at 02:03 PM. Reason: i speel gud
If you don't run ToT HC with your paladin tank, i understand it might not seem overpowered, even T14 HC's you can't generate enough vengeance for paladin to be OP. And for example DPS STR meta gem for our paladin maintank is like 11% of his DPS. He tops DPS meters almost on every boss on ToT HC and for example on Ra-den he did 360k dps while second dps was 200k. Sure monk tank can pull good dps and top meters, but i don't think its as good as paladin. And paladin has sick selfheal, don't remember exactly numbers but its huge.
I don't mind tank topping dps and healing meters, but i would like to see every tank class/spec being able to do so. Just make every tank dps/heal scale with secondary stats while having good defense like haste for paladin and crit for monks or nerf paladins/monks.