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  1. #521
    Yes, I completely agree that warriors should get a big damage buff and dks should probably get a smaller one.
    What I disagree with is the common claim that seems to float around that paladins are the highest dps tank, they are far from.
    In a lot of cases druids even wins over paladins.
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  2. #522
    I'm also pretty sure that bringing an extra tank wouldn't result in more RDPS, unless you really fudged a mechanic somewhere.
    On aoe fights or singetank fights tanks will do more dps thats the point of taking only one tank so you can take another dps and the overall dps is higher. If you 1tank a fight but have to take another healer to compensate the extra dmg the tank takes cause he sucks doenst help you at all. On almost all the other fights dps are higher than tanks.
    When we were progressing on Ra-den, we investigated the solo/duo tank setups. The solo tanks on first kills seem to average around 350k dps (and probably around 120 mil healing, maybe 130 mil). My tank partner and I averaged somewhere around 280k-290k sharing vengeance, and each of us did about 100 million healing throughout the fight.

    Our top dps was around 200k, which is fairly respectable for a single target fight, I guess. He also did no healing (and very little of the top dps specs do significant amounts of healing anyway). Our bottom dps was around 140k? Something like that.

    Solo tank + top dps = 550k rdps, ~120 mil healing, and generally a wipe if the tank dies.
    Solo tank + bottom dps = 490k rdps, ~120 mil healing, and generally a wipe if the tank dies.
    Duo tank = 570k rdps, ~200 mil healing, and tanks can die without fear of wipes (which happened twice on our kill.)

    Take also into consideration that you're not going to replace your top dps, but your bottom one who is doing around 150k if you bring in a second tank, and the difference is even more glaring.

    It's even worse these days, now that we can focus on damage, I think we average somewhere around 360k dps duo tanking the boss, while a solo tank can probably only get 450k dps. So your lowest dps player needs to do about 270k to even consider solo tanking the fight. Note that in a month our damage has ramped up by 30% or thereabouts while dps damage has gone up by maybe 5-10%.

    Pretty stupid. Subjectively, yes, but stupid. (For what it's worth, I believe the same argument can be made for Lei Shen - that is, it's eminently solo tankable yet bringing a second tank beats bringing another dps in terms of overall damage and healing, with more control as a bonus.)
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-05-16 at 07:22 PM.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    When we were progressing on Ra-den, we investigated the solo/duo tank setups. The solo tanks on first kills seem to average around 350k dps (and probably around 120 mil healing, maybe 130 mil). My tank partner and I averaged somewhere around 280k-290k sharing vengeance, and each of us did about 100 million healing throughout the fight.

    Our top dps was around 200k, which is fairly respectable for a single target fight, I guess. He also did no healing (and very little of the top dps specs do significant amounts of healing anyway). Our bottom dps was around 140k? Something like that.

    Solo tank + top dps = 550k rdps, ~120 mil healing, and generally a wipe if the tank dies.
    Solo tank + bottom dps = 490k rdps, ~120 mil healing, and generally a wipe if the tank dies.
    Duo tank = 570k rdps, ~200 mil healing, and tanks can die without fear of wipes (which happened twice on our kill.)

    Take also into consideration that you're not going to replace your top dps, but your bottom one who is doing around 150k if you bring in a second tank, and the difference is even more glaring.

    It's even worse these days, now that we can focus on damage, I think we average somewhere around 360k dps duo tanking the boss, while a solo tank can probably only get 450k dps. Note that in a month our damage has ramped up by 30% or thereabouts while dps damage has gone up by maybe 5-10%.

    Pretty stupid. Subjectively, yes, but stupid. (For what it's worth, I believe the same argument can be made for Lei Shen - that is, it's eminently solo tankable yet bringing a second tank beats bringing another dps in terms of overall damage and healing, with more control as a bonus.)
    May be coming to an end shortly:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tax View Post
    "@Ghostcrawler: Going to try Vengeance cap at 30% health (down from 100%) in 10s and 50% of health in 25s. This is a big change, so might be 5.4, not 5.3."
    Not sure if srs, or if it'll stick, but as I was suggesting earlier, this seems like the most elegant fix to the "issue". Wish they'd toss in the "no longer get vengeance from fire/environment damage" part of my suggestion too, but hey, it's a start.
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  4. #524
    Don't think it fixes anything. May break the bring 2 tanks instead of 1 (a truely rare one circumstance), but it doesn't do anything for classes differences. Scaling issues appear far sooner than 350k-400k vengeance (25H), 210k-250k (10H). Just because 5.4 gear, fuck you lesser tank classes.

    Thanks for trying to care, though, GC.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Don't think it fixes anything. May break the bring 2 tanks instead of 1 (a truely rare one circumstance), but it doesn't do anything for classes differences. Scaling issues appear far sooner than 350k-400k vengeance (25H), 210k-250k (10H). Just because 5.4 gear, fuck you lesser tank classes.

    Thanks for trying to care, though, GC.
    It fixes a few choice encounters/cheeses: last phase Horridon and Iron Qon (not that they're relevant anymore), as well as cheesing decap on LS, and solo-tank Ra-Den. Agree its largely an effort to reign in the top 0.1%, not an actual "fix", but it's at least an acknowledgement as you stated.
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  6. #526
    It wouldn't fix anything, at least not for 25s.

    It actually exacerbates the 2 tank vs 1 tank thing - now there's actually even less of an advantage in piling vengeance on one person as it's capped. 2 tanking Ra-den, my vengeance generally never goes above 400k compared to when I solo tank the very end and I peak to 550k or so.

    I don't think you can have any realistic fight for a while that actually damages the tank more than Ra-den near the end , and you can easily pop some cooldowns (mostly warrior shouts & last stand) even as a solo tank to maintain 1 mil+ hp in 25s to increase your damage.

    During the last part of the Iron Qon zerg, I believe I peaked around 500k vengeance as well. Again, it lasts short enough that you can just have warriors chain rally cry then pop a last stand and never run up against the cap. Same for Horridon or some of the super high damage situations.

    What we need is a vengeance cap that's low enough such that you reach it basically instantly, and allows us to do comparable damage to a dps instead of more than twice as much. Right now, I think that number is roughly around 100-150k or so.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-05-16 at 07:19 PM.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    It wouldn't fix anything, at least not for 25s.

    It actually exacerbates the 2 tank vs 1 tank thing - now there's actually even less of an advantage in piling vengeance on one person as it's capped. 2 tanking Ra-den, my vengeance generally never goes above 400k compared to when I solo tank the very end and I peak to 550k or so.

    I don't think you can have any realistic fight for a while that actually damages the tank more than Ra-den near the end , and you can easily pop some cooldowns (mostly warrior shouts & last stand) even as a solo tank to maintain 1 mil+ hp in 25s to increase your damage.

    During the last part of the Iron Qon zerg, I believe I peaked around 500k vengeance as well. Again, it lasts short enough that you can just have warriors chain rally cry then pop a last stand and never run up against the cap. Same for Horridon or some of the super high damage situations.

    What we need is a vengeance cap that's low enough such that you reach it basically instantly, and allows us to do comparable damage to a dps instead of more than twice as much. Right now, I think that number is roughly around 100-150k or so.
    The whole point of uncapping Vengeance is to make your AM abilities scale with incoming damage. Capping it to low amounts would simply bring it back to Cata's model and FR/SBar/etc do not work with this model.

    Regarding your example, I believe this is a class issue and not a vengeance issue. Would you be able to do this with other tank classes? ProbablyAssuredly not.

    The biggest problem with the current situation is that usually, when there is a tank imbalance, it's fairly easy to just bring the other tanks up. But in this case.... the tanks that are getting the shaft are already in a very strong position compared to the rest of the raid, even them are already in a somewhat ridiculous spot. The other tanks are just even more ridiculously strong. Can you really justify a buff in order to make a strong spec even stronger just for the sake of balance? I know I don't want a single buff on my DK. Our mitigation system is still the most interesting and the less prone to abuse out of all the tank specs, works completely fine in the new MoP model, and our damage is fine.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-05-16 at 07:35 PM.

  8. #528
    Why the focus on equalizing AM? It's not as if they're not hilariously imbalanced already.

    I'm aware that my supposed 150k vengeance cap would never make it into live because it introduces a whole host of other issues, including capping AM. I mentioned it merely to illustrate the uselessness of the 50% vengeance hp cap. It isn't going to change this expansion, but I do hope that in 6.0 I don't need a /sit macro, go out of my way to stand in fire, or purposely eat instant death mechanics with 90% reduction abilities to maximize my class. (Kinda like how tanking has gone full circle from frantically gearing for defense to eliminate crits to forcing crits on yourself anytime you can take it.)

  9. #529
    I'd be fine (thrilled) if they just made it so that critical attacks on tanks give the same veng as non-criticals.
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  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    I know I don't want a single buff on my DK. Our mitigation system is still the most interesting and the less prone to abuse out of all the tank specs, works completely fine in the new MoP model, and our damage is fine.
    Do you know of a log where a Blood DK solo tanks Ra-den for the entire fight? I'd love to see how Blood Shield compares to ShoR or Shuffle for Fatal Strike.

  11. #531
    Going to try Vengeance cap at 30% health (down from 100%) in 10s and 50% of health in 25s. This is a big change, so might be 5.4, not 5.3.
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  12. #532
    just nerf prot pala healing spells by 50% and its fine

  13. #533
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Not sure if srs, or if it'll stick, but as I was suggesting earlier, this seems like the most elegant fix to the "issue". Wish they'd toss in the "no longer get vengeance from fire/environment damage" part of my suggestion too, but hey, it's a start.
    I don't think it's an elegant fix, I think it's a band-aid fix. Either a cap is likely not to be reached easily (in which case it might as well not be there) or if it is reached easily, it defeats the purpose of Vengeance.

    Hence my reasoning behind reworking the ability entirely in 6.0 (possibly removing it), it seems to be creating more problems than it's solving now.

  14. #534
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    The Vengeance cap will only affect stuff like people Solo tanking heroic bosses and stuff like that as reaching your Vengeance Cap (even at 30%) will be very hard (while 2-tanking).


  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by barackohmama View Post
    just nerf prot pala healing spells by 50% and its fine
    Wouldn't change much, if anything at all. Half our healing is overheal anyway.


    But I'm sure you already knew that, because you've dug through combatlogs, skada reports and talked to a few protection paladins about their self-healing.

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  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    The Vengeance cap will only affect stuff like people Solo tanking heroic bosses and stuff like that as reaching your Vengeance Cap (even at 30%) will be very hard (while 2-tanking).
    For me in 10man that is 201000AP in vengeance, almost every encounter on heroic in the zone i pass that point when trying to optimise vengeance just saying.

  17. #537
    Since this seems to have turned into a general tanking discussion thread.

    Do warriors need a huge DPS/TPS boost, or has every warrior I've ever tanked with just been doing something wrong? They all seemed to know what they were doing, and were definitely good players, but every time I've tanked with a warrior (as a druid) I've had to hold back quite significantly while offtanking, or risk stealing aggro back. This can be a bit frustrating, as I'm not able to play my own class to its full potential while tanking alongside a warrior.

    I've never had this same problem when tanking alongside monks or paladins.

  18. #538
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    I think you're right Akylios.

    I've been tanking on my Warrior lately and while I usually take less damage than anyone else my DPS/TPS isn't enough to compete and if I can't pop DPS cools for a tankswap I need to have the other tank tone down his DPS a bit so I can hold aggro.

    So yea, Prot Warrs do need some PvE love but Blizz will probably be careful because they are already being used in PvP (I guess Swifty did have a hand in that).


  19. #539
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    Fun to be 1shotting people without boa's in 10-15 bracket with avenger shield. Also hoj+avengershield combo op at that lvl pvp!
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  20. #540
    What I remember reading on this issue was that Prot Pallies are getting a bit of a nerf but the main issue is more that a lot of fights in ToT play to their strengths so Blizzard will be more wary of that in future :P

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 06:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ebah View Post
    Fun to be 1shotting people without boa's in 10-15 bracket with avenger shield. Also hoj+avengershield combo op at that lvl pvp!
    Been like that since Cata launch at least.

    Low PVP is broke and ain't never gettin' fixed.
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