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  1. #61
    yes most of you are right that bops play a big part in the 1 tanking bit.... but ur missing the part where a prot pala does the SAME HEALING AS A NORMAL HEALER??

    look at all durumu or megera 1 tank fights for example.. u look at healin logs and think they are 4 healin it cause the prot pala is either top or mid of the healing

    a monk or any other tank could not provide that same healing

  2. #62
    The Lightbringer Valarius's Avatar
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    People complain about Prot

    > Knowing nothing about Paladin mechanics
    > Doesn't know how to read healing meters

    Yep, typical Paladin whine thread.

    The reason they look so good on healing meters is because a ton of the mitigation shows as healing (SS) and they do self heals via SoI. Battle Insight doesn't do anywhere near the amount you see at first glance, nevermind all dat overheal if your healers aren't braindead as fuck.
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-04-30 at 07:38 AM.

  3. #63
    Moderator Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    People complain about Prot

    > Knowing nothing about Paladin mechanics
    > Doesn't know how to read healing meters

    Yep, typical Paladin whine thread.

    The reason they look so good on healing meters is because a ton of the mitigation shows as healing (SS) and they do self heals via SoI. Battle Insight doesn't do anywhere near the amount you see at first glance, nevermind all dat overheal if your healers aren't braindead as fuck.
    That is most likely the shortest, yet easiest explanation about it. Was wondering how the OP could claim so high heals, but again, I have two recounts (Recount and Skada) one for DPS/DMG and one for Absorbs (for SS, Illuminated, bubbles and such)
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  4. #64
    Battle healer actually provides a lot less then you expect. What provides a ton of healing, is their sacred shield and seal of insight.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    People complain about Prot

    > Knowing nothing about Paladin mechanics
    > Doesn't know how to read healing meters

    Yep, typical Paladin whine thread.

    The reason they look so good on healing meters is because a ton of the mitigation shows as healing (SS) and they do self heals via SoI. Battle Insight doesn't do anywhere near the amount you see at first glance, nevermind all dat overheal if your healers aren't braindead as fuck.
    I don't know about the healing stuff in great detail, but I think turning two tank fights into one tank fights is a pretty big deal, don't you?

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathruler11 View Post
    yes most of you are right that bops play a big part in the 1 tanking bit.... but ur missing the part where a prot pala does the SAME HEALING AS A NORMAL HEALER??

    look at all durumu or megera 1 tank fights for example.. u look at healin logs and think they are 4 healin it cause the prot pala is either top or mid of the healing

    a monk or any other tank could not provide that same healing
    you seem to miss the part where like 65% of that healing is tied to 2 abilities sacred shield and seal of insight both of which are 100% healing on ourselfs. Paladins take more damage than other tanks. We are build around a 100% uptime on sacred shield and using SOI right now. Remember dk's in wrath and early cata doing the same HPS as healers. dk's were still shit. Its not SOI/SS that are the problems its everything else and the 500k+ 5 stack WOG crit's on some fights. Biggest WOG i've seen on myself this tier was prob solo tank iron qon p3 and was close to 700k.

  7. #67
    The Lightbringer Valarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    I don't know about the healing stuff in great detail, but I think turning two tank fights into one tank fights is a pretty big deal, don't you?
    Any Paladin can do that; read the thread, that's already been established. The problem is that Blizzard's idea of tank mechanics is "does a stacking physical debuff" which means BoP can be abused. A Holy or Ret using Clemency can provide that dispel too. It doesn't make Prot OP.

    Oh also regarding healing; you cannot remove our SS/SoI heals because we are built around healing ourselves. Warriors have a passive 25% damage reduction, we don't. Our DR comes in the form of healing ourselves, shielding ourselves and our active mitigation/blocks. Different classes are different. Stop comparing apples and oranges.
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-04-30 at 07:58 AM.

  8. #68
    If your paladin is doing more healing than any of your healers, your healers are bad. 45-50k hps of which 35k is self-healing is where prot palas are at this moment.
    Considering, that it's not that important how much you heal but WHEN you heal, my monk doing 150k raid hps on Megaera is much more OP.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanthalas View Post
    If your paladin is doing more healing than any of your healers, your healers are bad. 45-50k hps of which 35k is self-healing is where prot palas are at this moment.
    Considering, that it's not that important how much you heal but WHEN you heal, my monk doing 150k raid hps on Megaera is much more OP.
    45-50k hps? Are we playing the same game?

    150k hps on Megaera? Have you seen what good prot paladins do at last phase in Iron Qon HC? That raid hps as a burst is insane.

  10. #70
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    Paladin "Healing" is heavily self preservation from Insight and Sacred Shield. There's some spillover to the raid but it's not nearly as game changing as say Disc Priest's dps+fullhealing. Paladins bring HoP, DS and Aura Mastery that counter many mechanics in ToT very hard though, and because their rotation (if one can call bashing every skill that generates HP asap a rotation) is simple pretty much all the time coordinating these utility spells is very easy.

    But it's not like other tanks are garbage, Monks do tons of damage and have great mitigation up all the time, Warriors have strong buffs and debuffs (all hail the Skull Banner), good deathknights can blood shield their way through many of the same difficulties as a paladin and in many cases can do it while being less spiky, and druids have stampeding roar + brez + tranq.

    I play Warrior prot because I prefer to heal on my paladin rather than tank but I don't really consider a paladin tank essential for a raid, the cheesiest of paladin tricks are shared by all paladins.
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  11. #71
    Mechagnome Pilkie's Avatar
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    Sacred shield just needs to scale a bit less crazily

  12. #72
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    I’ve had a good laugh at all the people trying to justify (more likely to themselves) an opinion that is demonstrably wrong.

    Protection paladins are broken.

    There, I said it – they’re not strong, they’re flat out broken. Yes, other paladins bring Hand of Protection (or two, if they’ve talented it). Yes, Vengeance scaling is causing problems. Yes, there was a nerf on the PTR already. Yes, haste-gearing has an impact.

    But anyone arguing that paladins aren’t the best tanks in the game right now, and by a distance, is kidding themselves. Hell, in 10-man, they allow you to shed an entire healer, which is of dramatic help in heroic modes.

    Having said all of that:

    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    How would they be nerfed? It feels like they'd need a bit of a makeover, which you don't just do mid-tier. Not to mention you'd need to probably nerf the tier as well as so many groups have been successful because of a prot pally.
    There’s a lot of truth in this comment. Trying to fix something mid-tier, something that’s going to hit a lot of guilds very hard, is something Blizzard just can’t do. They’d be punishing guilds for a design mistake, and that’s not fair to players.

    For me, the only choice they’ve got is to simply downtune the abilities that are causing the issue, hopefully without going too far. Battle healer has been mentioned but Alabaster Shield, Word of Glory and Light’s Hammer all need attention in order to bring paladins back in line from a healing point of view. Why they scale with Vengeance utterly escapes me, considering far worse healing talents such as Impending Victory don’t.

    Mid-tier, and maybe even mid-expansion, that’s about as far as you can go. But as said previously, the inconsistencies in design highlight, at least to me, that paladins are simply designed to be better than the other tanks.

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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Mudor View Post
    Its just stupid how strong they are. For example when we do challenge modes, our prot pala goes FULL t15 ret gear with dps trinkets and shitloads of haste.

    Guess what? He tops damage AND healing. He barely need healing so our disc priest just smites.

    Dps is usually something like this on bosses

    1. Prot Pal 100k
    2. Mage 97k
    3. Disc priest 90k
    4. Ele sham 89k
    5. Hunter 85k

    They really need a nerf
    The Prot Pally is the only one doing the kind of DPS they are capable of. The Mage, Shaman and Hunter need to get better, there is no excuse for doing less than 100k dps in 500-520 gear.

    And the disc priest smiting is how the spec works!

    Alabaster Shield,
    Alabaster Shield is a pure DPS glyph (and in single-target fights a lesser dps increase than Focused Shield.

    Why they scale with Vengeance utterly escapes me
    My WoG heals me for about 30k unbuffed. Why would I EVER hit WoG to heal myself when I have nearly 900k life when raid buffed when the shaman health increase if it only healed for 30k? The majority of the WoG increase comes from Bastion of Glory (1% more WoG healing per mastery, stacks 5 times).
    Last edited by Butler Log; 2013-04-30 at 09:24 AM.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    The Prot Pally is the only one doing the kind of DPS they are capable of. The Mage, Shaman and Hunter need to get better, there is no excuse for doing less than 100k dps in 500-520 gear.

    And the disc priest smiting is how the spec works!



    Alabaster Shield is a pure DPS glyph (and in single-target fights a lesser dps increase than Focused Shield.



    My WoG heals me for about 30k unbuffed. Why would I EVER hit WoG to heal myself when I have nearly 900k life when raid buffed when the shaman health increase if it only healed for 30k?
    Challenge modes ring a bell?

    Paladin tanks are so broken, i am glad we did all the cheese bosses without one. Almost feels like cheating have 1 person in the raid dominating DPS/Healing and tanking at the same time on some heroic bosses.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Miscam View Post
    Challenge modes ring a bell?

    Paladin tanks are so broken, i am glad we did all the cheese bosses without one. Almost feels like cheating have 1 person in the raid dominating DPS/Healing and tanking at the same time on some heroic bosses.
    The bosses are the easiest part of challenge modes. Other tanks have much more mass-CC, which is the key to fast times (DKs and Warriors come to mind). You can 5 dps most challenge mode bosses.
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    The bosses are the easiest part of challenge modes. Other tanks have much more mass-CC, which is the key to fast times (DKs and Warriors come to mind).
    I ment your overeager response how the dps should do more.

    And i was referring to heroic mode raiding after that. Can you read?

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    For me, the only choice they’ve got is to simply downtune the abilities that are causing the issue, hopefully without going too far.
    Make Sacred Shield stop scaling with haste, just Vengeance.
    Make Light's Hammer and Holy Prism stop scaling with Vengeance and leave Veng scaling to personal heals only (like Seal of Insight)
    Fix the abusability of tank debuffs by all HoPs from all Paladins

    All 4 are relatively easy fixes that still leave most of Prot's signature strengths and abilities intact and remove the major points of OPness. If you wanna take it a step further you can fix other tanks to have comparable active mitigation but that's not a problem with Pallies, their active mitigation works the way its meant to by design. If anything other tanks need a change to catch up.

    Honestly if it was up to me I'd have them remove the whole haste thing altogether and remove vengeance from the game. I find both to be clunky dumb mechanics for tanks, I much preferred it the way it was in Vanilla - WotLK. If they wanted tanks to care about DPS and not just do shit damage with high threat modifiers then they can make them scale damage with stamina or mastery or some tank stat. Vengeance as a concept leads to so many weird, impossible to balance and just... silly... scenarios.
    Last edited by RavenGage; 2013-04-30 at 09:34 AM.


  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Miscam View Post
    I ment your overeager response how the dps should do more.

    And i was referring to heroic mode raiding after that. Can you read?
    I'm just saying that Paladins are not the best tank for fast CM times. while we have the high dps, we lack the mass CC that Deathknights and Warriors bring to the table and that are essential for going for record breaking Gold times.
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    I'm just saying that Paladins are not the best tank for fast CM times. while we have the high dps, we lack the mass CC that Deathknights and Warriors bring to the table and that are essential for going for record breaking Gold times.
    I don't really care about that tbh. I was just correcting your mishap about 500-520 geared dps should do more, while the OP was talking about CM. Obviously the itemlvl would not apply there, but it seems you miss quite abit reading. You should try harder matey.

  20. #80
    The OP does not say a single word about Challenge Modes. Requoted for your convenience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathruler11 View Post
    Am I the only one thats finding this teir to be a huge cock block if you dont have a palading tank?

    So many fights are completely changed, and made 10x easier if you have a prot pala, its becoming such a joke trying to compete with other raid groups just because of this.

    For example, Horridon you can completly ignore the tank swap, and the pala will do so much healing hes basically a 3rd tank
    Tortos can be 1 tanked with a prot pala.. again huge healing to the raid
    Megaera can be 1 tanked with a prot pala.. the pala basically does the same healing as an actual healer (lol)
    Durumu can be 1 tanked 2 healed with the use of bops and again... stupidly high raid healing.
    Iron Qon once again can be 1 tanked with bops and extra raid healing.


    Am I completely missing something? Are prot palas really not what they seem? Why havnt blizzard nerfed them yet?


    I feel like our 522 prot warrior should just re-roll to his 500 ilvl prot paladin and probably be a way better tank, then we can cheese all the encounters like every other guild.
    Or has "OP" been reassigned to mean something other than "original post" without me hearing about it?
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