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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    That actually works on raid bosses? I guess you learn something new every day.
    Helps moving Horridon between gates as well and allows for more caster dps in between. But if that's his only concern about his tank comp then it's just a "first world problem", one situation on one boss is like nothing and won't make or break your raid at all.

    Speaking from a 10M PoV: anybody who has the opportunity to run with monk and/or prot pala should do it, why wouldn't you want additional raidheal even if that's "only" 10k (or 50k, whatever)? It's the same question as if you can fill your last dps slot and already covered all revelant raid(de-)buffs, would you rather bring somebody with a strong offheal capability or just a plain dps (disregard their personality or possible loot dilemma).

    If you can bring another melee or an enhancer, i'd go with the shaman any day. On Megaera heroic our enhancer heals for up to 300k hps during rampage with ancestral guidance popped and dropping a glyphed healing rain, how this can ever be balanced for 10M?

    Similar problem with owl/shadow versus a pure ranged dps like a mage, tranq+symbiosis/massdispell+vampiric embrace will come handy more often (more or less on any fight) than a ring of frost. With the abolition of the "hybrid tax" a roster with lots of hybrids will regulary beat a normal roster. With the nature of most fights (burst damage instead of constant aoe) intelligent management of hybrids cooldown allow your team to bring another dps instead of a third healer, greatly decreasing the damage requirements per person.

    Or turn it around, if you run with (fist-)mistweaver and disc priest you can easily add 100k raid-dps over a team of shaman/paladin/druid, how is this balanced? Yes, it adds the unique feeling to each class but to much diversity is just an uncontrollable element. Anybody who's willing to stack it will get great boni from this, especially during the progression phase. When you kill everything weeks (or months) behind world/server first, with +10 or more ilvl on your team you can run with any setup but if you still conquer for some more or less big records ... having a solid advantage won't hurt
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-04-30 at 08:26 PM.

  2. #162
    The Patient Valkari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Are paladins too strong? Yes.

    Will they be nerfed? No.

    Essentially, the design team believes paladins should be the best tanks in the game and they've maintained this belief since WotLK (outside of a patch or two). It's unfortunate if you play another class, but it's just the way it is.

    Cue "all tanks are tanking all the content" as an attempt at misdirection from a tank topping damage and healing meters while having utility to die for.
    While I will agree that our prot pally does seem to survive slightly better and have utility, brewmaster DPS and aggro is quite a bit higher (assuming similar levels of vengeance). He's always growling at me about it, lol.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Completely agree with this. That and vengeance raid healing (self healing isn't as big an issue, considering that is not "competing" with healers, but rather part of an overall mitigation package).
    Vengeance's dynamics make the mechanic cool in concept, but in practice it's led to a lot of inconsistencies: awkward boss swaps, limits to playing the role in old content, crucially high DPS in many encounters, "weird and demoralizing" (quoting Street) DPS in trivial but current content.

  4. #164
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celarent View Post
    Vengeance's dynamics make the mechanic cool in concept, but in practice it's led to a lot of inconsistencies: awkward boss swaps, limits to playing the role in old content, crucially high DPS in many encounters, "weird and demoralizing" (quoting Street) DPS in trivial but current content.
    Yeah, it could have been implemented a lot better. Agree that Ghostcrawler's whole spiel about "weird and demoralizing" was total bullshit.

    I went from doing 50-60% of the group's damage in 5-mans (when playing very well compared to a group) to doing 80%+. Of the entire 5-man.

    Yes, you can give the "no shit" answers like "oh well it kills things faster" or "oh well it's not hurting the DPS since you don't technically replace them" but honestly, even as a DPS, if all I cared about was "not being replaced" then I feel there's something missing (of course, the "no shit" answer is that player for player I'd obviously prefer each person in the group - DPS, tank, or healer - doing more damage and healing than not, but this isn't a question of that, more of a question of game design and balance).

  5. #165
    Paladins does not need a nerf as much as they need a rebalance. Current issues

    To high self HPS, to high self DTPS, solution, reduce both.
    SS to strong, reduce that absorb
    Need increase in AE dps.

    The major part I would say, would be some rework on SotR, current model is to weird. It is way to unforgiving for new players, and way to rewarding for skilled players, in comparison to other players active mitgiation. Seeing a rework to something like 10% passive and 20% on use physical damage reduction from the current 40% baseline or something similar. Aswell as having mastery scaling similarly aswell. I also feel like the 3 second duration is too short, but I dunno, maybe it is fine, hard to change that without changing the core of the ability.

    The current way protadins work makes them way to strong on some niche fights.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #166
    prot pallys are like dks.. they take dmg but they heal it back in a lesser amount. the only thing that makes them better is Hop and bubble.. removing key debuffs from a boss fight makes it much easier. also since SOTR is pure physical dmg.. it can negate harmful attacks quite easily. however they arent the best tanks.. and they arent 100% necessary raids.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by announced View Post
    prot pallys are like dks.. they take dmg but they heal it back in a lesser amount. the only thing that makes them better is Hop and bubble.. removing key debuffs from a boss fight makes it much easier. also since SOTR is pure physical dmg.. it can negate harmful attacks quite easily. however they arent the best tanks.. and they arent 100% necessary raids.
    Prot Pallies are, overall the best tanks. Brewmasters a very close second.

    They're pretty damn necessary for bleeding edge raiding. Lei Shen HC was killed primarily through the Prot Pally/Brewmaster Monk combo.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Prot Pallies are, overall the best tanks. Brewmasters a very close second.

    They're pretty damn necessary for bleeding edge raiding. Lei Shen HC was killed primarily through the Prot Pally/Brewmaster Monk combo.
    Isnt methods tank lineup protwarri and pala? Just looked through wowproress, only three guild used that tank combo in the top 10, if you look at the rest. its pala/drood, 2xblooddk, prot dk, protwarri/drood and so on.

    So If you look at that Leishen was primarily killed by all tanks. infact almost half of the top10 guilds didnt have any pala or monk.

    To magic dmg to all the people saying, OMG protpala is so bad at magic dmg cause their mastery i only physical dmg. Well infact no tank mastery effects magic dmg, you could even say due to the healing scaling on pala mastery, they are the only class where mastery helps a little bit against magic dmg. Pala and all the other tanks have to use cooldown, against magic dmg. and again almost all tanks are equal, monk and paladin are a bit better here too, but not much.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathruler11 View Post
    Lol at all the people saying paladins do not do good raid healing.

    check this random log of a Megeara rampage phase and tell me they dont do good healing

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2856&e=2883

    Wazie 5195876 24.55% 186486.1 185573.6
    Glennis 4404594 20.81% 158086.1 157312.5
    Dekko 4040958 19.09% 145034.7 144325.1
    Malchediel 3918063 18.51% 140623.9 139935.


    so 1st place is a priest
    2nd place is a druid
    3rd place is a PALADIN TANK
    4th place is a holy pala


    Obviously each healer uses different cds on diff rampages... but this is merely an example of wot they are capable of... show me a monk/warrior/dk/druid that can do that kind of healing consistantly?
    That is basicly every fucking tank now days.. and ooh btw that random guild! if u want a pala so much recruit one and replace yourself.. the only reason he is doign that healing is vengence. he got about 200k ish of on that fight and the most healing is on himself and in the rampage he heals the raid with the hammer. but u have a anti-magiq zone. u cant complain of classes having diffrent spells..

  10. #170
    are you seriously comparing pally cd with a blood dks's AMZ for real? AMZ heals for ~135k total. not 135k per person... 135k total.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by devilminion View Post
    are you seriously comparing pally cd with a blood dks's AMZ for real? AMZ heals for ~135k total. not 135k per person... 135k total.
    Only cause of the vengence

  12. #172
    You want to talk about OP prot pallies you should watch Devai's stream sometime for Paragon clears. Sickening dps(was first by a mile for their 10h tot clear) and a really close 3rd for healing.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by shiftze View Post
    That is basicly every fucking tank now days.. and ooh btw that random guild! if u want a pala so much recruit one and replace yourself.. the only reason he is doign that healing is vengence. he got about 200k ish of on that fight and the most healing is on himself and in the rampage he heals the raid with the hammer. but u have a anti-magiq zone. u cant complain of classes having diffrent spells..
    Im sorry but did you really just post that? comparing 4mil healing to AMZ that absorbs maybe 400k if that lol?

    Why your telling me its because of vengence i do not know... of course hes going to have vengence?


    Yes class's have different spells for different things.. but a paladin basically has everything.


    -Good mitigation on par with a warrior
    -Good dps almost on par with a monk
    -Good self heals, probably better than a DK with vengence
    -Good raid healing with stuff like hammer when raid is stacked
    -Bring 2 different raid buffs, stats + mastery
    -Big raid CD in the form of Aura mastery (20% reduced magic dmg vs say a 10% reduced dmg banner of a warrior, or a crappy rallying cry)
    -Good utility with hand of purity for dot mechanics, or bops to remove debuffs


    Tell me 1 bad thing about a paladin compared to another class.. tell me why ud bring a warrior/dk/druid over a paladin (im not goin to include monk, as i feel like they are almost equal to a paladin in terms of being overpowered)

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathruler11 View Post
    Im sorry but did you really just post that? comparing 4mil healing to AMZ that absorbs maybe 400k if that lol?

    Why your telling me its because of vengence i do not know... of course hes going to have vengence?


    Yes class's have different spells for different things.. but a paladin basically has everything.


    -Good mitigation on par with a warrior
    -Good dps almost on par with a monk
    -Good self heals, probably better than a DK with vengence
    -Good raid healing with stuff like hammer when raid is stacked
    -Bring 2 different raid buffs, stats + mastery
    -Big raid CD in the form of Aura mastery (20% reduced magic dmg vs say a 10% reduced dmg banner of a warrior, or a crappy rallying cry)
    -Good utility with hand of purity for dot mechanics, or bops to remove debuffs


    Tell me 1 bad thing about a paladin compared to another class.. tell me why ud bring a warrior/dk/druid over a paladin (im not goin to include monk, as i feel like they are almost equal to a paladin in terms of being overpowered)
    If you put it that way you could do that whith every class. I could just put druid in front of your stuff change cds, and say tell me one bad thing about beeing druid.
    One bad thing i can tell you right now, aoe tanking paladins are very weak compared to a druid dk or monk.

    And why would you bring another class.

    Warrior for your raid is the strongest dps tankclass, if you dont have another warrior.
    Druid if you want a class with lots of add control, aoe speed buff, amour debuff. strong raidcooldown.


    -Mitigation all tanks are on almost identical, some are stonger on this fight some on others.
    -DPS druid monks and pala are strong here the other seem to be a bit behing.
    -Selfheal, on fights like leishi or stone quard heroic, where you just use FR as a druid he will outheal any other class, the only one getting close to that will be a very high vengeance pala. And pala and dks take dmg and absorb or heal it, of course they have high self heal.
    -Raidbuffs. pala can buff 1 of his 2, as a druid you buff 2 (stats+crit), warrior 2 buffs(ap or hp), monk(i believe it was one,crit is only buffed by WW), dk 1 buff, so druid are best in this part. pala just equal to the other tanks.
    -Raidcooldown: Druids HotW+Tranq strongest healcd in 10m. Warrior 10% reduced dmg from any kind, hp shout ( its not crappy at all, EH on the entire raid is still stronger than any healcd). monk has two raidcds. one negates 5 cast on raidmembers one take dmg from the raid and gives it to the monk. paladin have auramastery which is completely useless on physical encounters, and hammer of light which is on par with the other cooldowns, it scales good it has a low cooldown, but the strongest part of this cooldown, it heals everybody inside the aoe not jsut 3-6 people or lowers the heal if more than 3 are in it it always the same, if you hav 5 or 10 inside of it.
    -ultiliy: Druid symbiosis, raidspeed, add control, BR. DK Aoe grip, single target grip. Warrior: high mobility, banners, lvl75 talents, shockwave stun every 20/40 seconds. Monk: high mobility, best kite tank, glyphed firebreath, cooldown beast (almost every button you press as a BM gives you a bonus to your mitigation)

    why i would bring any other class over a paladin.
    1) the other tank is a better player.
    2) you want another tank for your setup, due to lack of raidcd/buff/debuff.
    3) maybe you would want a better offtank than pala (which they are also not the best at, monks and druids are alot stronger on that part)#
    4) you already have a healpala, that can bop/purity, has auramastery, hammer of light.
    5) you want a druid cause he is the only tank that has a range dps specc, for tanks you want to solotank maybe.
    6)Or jsut cause 70% of you raid could just be on the palatoken.


    There are so many reason to take any other class, i wanted a paladin in my raidgroup so i looked for one, cause i play a druid in 10m and pala druid team up really good in 10m.

    But, if a protpala is not as good as a warrior tank skillwise, the warrior tank will be better for any raid. Same goes for all the other classes.
    Are monk and paladins strong? yes they are.
    can you kill every current boss with any other tanksetup? yes
    going for heroic raids, you should atleast have 1 paladin, in your group. If not you will still be able to clear 13/13.

    Im not saying they arent the strongest tanking class. But just because some dont know all the other tanking classes or dont know how a paladin works doenst make paladin the strongest. Any good played dk druid warrior will help you get throught ToT easier than a midskilled paladin. Equally skilled paladin will make it easier, but not impossible for the other tanks to be on par in most situations.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-01 at 05:52 PM.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    snip
    I don't believe the person you responded to said a single word about player skill. If you take that out of the equation Paladins do end up being a stronger tank than most, though that mostly falls on HoP and Lights Hammer with vengeance (which is much better than a holy pallies, you can't really compare the 2).
    Also druids bring practically no raid utility, unless you like burning 2 CD and popping out of bear form just to heal once per fight(7 min CD lol)? Also quoting stampeding roar as a raid CD is laughable. As a DK though I feel the same pain as my AMZ as stated above barely soaks 400k damage and I lose a big personal CD to do so. Also bloodworms are loltastic with their 80%+ overheal on every fight, I would trade half their healing just to have some control over it.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    I don't believe the person you responded to said a single word about player skill. If you take that out of the equation Paladins do end up being a stronger tank than most, though that mostly falls on HoP and Lights Hammer with vengeance (which is much better than a holy pallies, you can't really compare the 2).
    Also druids bring practically no raid utility, unless you like burning 2 CD and popping out of bear form just to heal once per fight(7 min CD lol)? Also quoting stampeding roar as a raid CD is laughable. As a DK though I feel the same pain as my AMZ as stated above barely soaks 400k damage and I lose a big personal CD to do so. Also bloodworms are loltastic with their 80%+ overheal on every fight, I would trade half their healing just to have some control over it.
    Battlehealer is alot of overheal on most fights too btw. AMZ was nerfed too hard when you compare it to the beta.

    So a CD that has a 6min cooldown and heals for the same amount as hammer of light, doesnt need you to have high vengeance, also you dont have too be in an small aoe radius. Plus the same cd can be used to do dmg, while not tanking which is with a 502 caster weapon already 200k dps, and you can heal for 45 seconds in total. Yes some fights its better to have a low cd hammer of light kinda stuff, but on other fights a good hotw with tranq is more powerful. Some tanks will always have better stuff one boss, some for the others.

    Stampeding roar not a raid cd? A spell that boost the movement speed of an entire raid group, dispells all slow effects, what else do you call utility for raids. It dispells the MS slow plus hastslow on iron qon last phase, glyphed on jikun you will hit everybody with this. Leishen i almost use it on cooldown. it lets you bypass some mechanics maybe not as strong as HoP but thats what you are saying

    I quess symbiosis is not utility too. giving the other tanks another cooldown. i even gave it to our mage on leishen and we had no more problems with transitions while 2 healing it. giving holypala another br, giving the druid another aoe to help tanks adds on horridon tortos, for example.

    And the person i responded two ask for reason to bring any other tanks than palas, i gave him 6 could even give you more if you like. And i even said paladin are the strongest tanks right now. But the way you and deathruler put it, it sound like you can take any protpala no matter how good he is and will always outperform any other tank.
    If you look at Logs, a druid HotW+Tranq+rejuv, heals for the same amount as paladins Hammer, on almost all fights. So when only looking at numbers, not looking players skill, the only thing that is different is their cooldown, and because HotW has a 6min cd its not a Raid utility cd?

    So when i argue like you do HoP is not Raid utility cause, it lets you ignore some parts of a fight or makes a fight easier, just like roar?

    AMZ is a bit weak but still 400k dmg abosrb, thats 40k per player in 10m, thats 8-10% EH taking into account some classes take less magicdmg than others.

    Ill say it again paladintanks are strong but not mandatory like alot believe, what makes them strong really is the hammer, but also after tankswapping shielding the other tank while the pala still has vengeance, a another cd for the tank(Hand of sacrifice i believe its called), does alot of dps, SotR is really strong on alot encounters cause its like a Shieldwall with normal 522 gear, with 50%-60% uptime. A fine tuned mastery. And the reason my raid has a paladin cause they scale so good with vengeance, and im a crit build druid still does insane amount of dmg while offtanking.

    Almost all tanks can solo tank the fights where solotanking is really worth it, with any pala in your raid. have you tanked Dark animus with Druid /DK setup? You dont have to switch tanks, and they both take like 0 dmg the entire fight, i tanked the boss with all the other classes on nh, and nothing works better on that boss than druid dk. So are both of them OP and need to be nerfed, or maybe even buff the other classes. No you can kill the boss with any tankcomp, some just make it a bit easier. And i choose Dark animus as an example cause most will be laughing that the boss is so easy it doesnt matter which tank you will use, and there is almost no difference on nh, if you choose one tank over the other. Still there is a small difference, Same goes for ironqon when two healing the fight, having a tank druid with hotw doing dps in fire phase to end it quickly, and a palatank tanking the first phase alone having high vengeance healing the melees with Hammer almost alone. plus having lights hammer and hotw tranq for last phase. Really helps but its still manageble with any other tankcomp.
    As i learned over the past days, monk and pala are really strong on Jikun hc, they help alot on that fight still you can kill him with any tankcomp, just make the fight a bit harder, or you need a few trys more to learn certain aspects of the fight different than with a pala monk comp.

    Those are just example how small the differences are, and just looking at the number of fights where paladins are slightly ahead, paladins are the best tanks, followed by monks, than the rest. But the margin is so small that you will always ahve to take into account stuff like overall raidcomp (in 10m) and playerskill.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-01 at 10:44 PM.

  17. #177
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    In fairness, I do feel druids can be a weaker tank. But stuff like Battle Healer, etc. does exist on other tanks in the form of Bloodworms, Statue Guard, Demo Banner, etc. Obviously each ability has advantages and disadvantages.

    I don't think Tranquility is that good (8 min CD I thought?) simply because you can't use it while tanking. But obviously it's usable on Lei Shen, and Symbiosis is just a great ability overall.

    If they gave Tranquility a monk treatment (Guardian only: cast-able while in Bear Form and can continue to dodge while casting) I think it would be a good buff, worth the trade-off of not being able to use other abilities while channeling, and not as broken in PvP since you can still be kicked.

    Also Light's Hammer is a level 90 talent, you're trading the control of Holy Prism (20 sec CD) and the single target damage in ES for it.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-05-01 at 10:54 PM.

  18. #178
    All of the bosses in ToT can be tanked with any tank combination and as someone who plays both Prot paladin + Blood dk, i'm personally sick of idiots whining otherwise. Is it slightly easier with a paladin tank? Yes. Does that mean they need nerfing? You already got your wish. Battle healer is nerfed for 5.3, although thats not at all the reason why prot paladins have an easier time. We can remove the debuffs on select fights. As someone already said, its normally <insert tank> having an easier time during any given tier. I forget the last time a paladins shields could even remove debuffs during a raid. It's been that long.

    My battlehealer healer generally does nothing noticable, unless theres AoE involved. Single target is normally crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    This happen all the time. Normally it is DKs that get to cheese fights, if it isn't them it is normally pallies. Somebody has to be the best this is nothing new.
    Well said. Guess people are quick to forget that, when their tank of choice isn't the current top. Or like the time warriors were top... But yeah.

    Got to be honest. Thread like this are stupid silly. Next tier, paladins probably won't be able to bubble off debuffs once again. Then it'll just be another tanks ability, say, prot warriors being able to aoe stun every 20 seconds (for example) or the mobility they and monks bring to a fight that suddenly elevates them above the other tanks.
    Last edited by Xucuroz; 2013-05-01 at 11:07 PM.
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  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    In fairness, I do feel druids can be a weaker tank. But stuff like Battle Healer, etc. does exist on other tanks in the form of Bloodworms, Statue Guard, Demo Banner, etc. Obviously each ability has advantages and disadvantages.

    I don't think Tranquility is that good (8 min CD I thought?) simply because you can't use it while tanking. But obviously it's usable on Lei Shen, and Symbiosis is just a great ability overall.

    If they gave Tranquility a monk treatment (Guardian only: cast-able while in Bear Form and can continue to dodge while casting) I think it would be a good buff, worth the trade-off of not being able to use other abilities while channeling, and not as broken in PvP since you can still be kicked.
    Bloodworms are not even worth mentioning. Of all my healing for all boss kills our raid group did last night(7 bosses), bloodworms accounted for 4.83% of it. of that 4.83% (16,774,668) 91.7% of it was overhealing. The effective healing over my worms over those 7 fights was 199k healing per boss fight. Pretty sure 1 tic of LH during a high damage scenario is more than this.

    Also since I doubt people will read back to my first statement, I would rather see similar utility granted to all tanks, rather than paladins losing theirs.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    Bloodworms are not even worth mentioning. Of all my healing for all boss kills our raid group did last night(7 bosses), bloodworms accounted for 4.83% of it. of that 4.83% (16,774,668) 91.7% of it was overhealing. The effective healing over my worms over those 7 fights was 199k healing per boss fight. Pretty sure 1 tic of LH during a high damage scenario is more than this.

    Also since I doubt people will read back to my first statement, I would rather see similar utility granted to all tanks, rather than paladins losing theirs.
    Problem with that is, your comparing an ability a paladin has to spec for (talent choice), to an ability blood dks get baseline. Maybe that's fair. But then maybe all tanks should get abilities or talents similar to gor fiends grasp, or remorseless winter (for example). Sure they might not be much use this current tier of raiding, but you never know when or what boss fight they might be useful. Which seems to be what most people forget in this topic.
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