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  1. #41
    Prot paladins dont need nerfed.

    Raid mechanics need to not be able to be cheesed out with bops.

  2. #42
    i am almost sure that next expansion dodge parry will be gone from gear.. till then get a prot pally and /lol at yr dks and warriors tanks.

  3. #43
    How would they be nerfed? It feels like they'd need a bit of a makeover, which you don't just do mid-tier. Not to mention you'd need to probably nerf the tier as well as so many groups have been successful because of a prot pally.

    Although I feel like another thing they could do is just make all of those tank debuffs not cleared by BoP or HoP or whatever it is. Maybe that's complicated coding, but it really is silly that if you have a certain type of tank and healer/dps, you can kind of just ignore tank swaps for extended periods of time, if you have to swap at all.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathruler11 View Post
    Am I the only one thats finding this teir to be a huge cock block if you dont have a palading tank?

    So many fights are completely changed, and made 10x easier if you have a prot pala, its becoming such a joke trying to compete with other raid groups just because of this.

    For example, Horridon you can completly ignore the tank swap, and the pala will do so much healing hes basically a 3rd tank
    Tortos can be 1 tanked with a prot pala.. again huge healing to the raid
    Megaera can be 1 tanked with a prot pala.. the pala basically does the same healing as an actual healer (lol)
    Durumu can be 1 tanked 2 healed with the use of bops and again... stupidly high raid healing.
    Iron Qon once again can be 1 tanked with bops and extra raid healing.


    Am I completely missing something? Are prot palas really not what they seem? Why havnt blizzard nerfed them yet?


    I feel like our 522 prot warrior should just re-roll to his 500 ilvl prot paladin and probably be a way better tank, then we can cheese all the encounters like every other guild.
    Tired of "BOO HOO, Prot Pallies are too good, NERF THEM!" Stop your crying and live with it. Or should we nerf warriors? Or how about nerfing YOUR CLASS?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post

    I honestly think vengeance should just be capped at a tenth of the current value, maybe small modifications depending on what difficulty level you're playing at.
    Can't agree more on this. Would be the first step in the right direction - the tuning should start from there.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    What's going on in here? Oh dear.

    There was a similar discussion in /p/aladin yesterday (mmoc board that is), as I said then, the biggest mistake was allowing debuffs to clear again. It was obviously an experiment to test the waters, one that failed.

    Sotr aligning with various attacks is op yes, but the same can be done for blood shield and sbarrier so they can't change it without addressing all the issues, plus lets be honest, being able to use your active mitigation effectively is what they want you to do. Ala sha and raden. Should it be removed a lot of depth is lost from those classes.

    The dps is a problem, since the haste build carries the veng so much further than other tanks who are already ahead of dps. The fix would be to balance paladins around the haste. However as the average LFR paladin doesn't run haste, you'd be nerfing most casual players to the ground.

    Battle healer is desperately overrated, especially in 25 man. You won't notice a difference.
    atleast in the damage category I have to disagree with you a bit maybe in 25 man the haste build carries the veng further but idk in 10 man paladins are like 3rd on damage of the tanks and in normal modes without good vengence (so I mean I feel our damage is fine). We need that amazing vengeance to pull those kinda numbers. I do believe we scale with vengence better than any other tanks and that is what makes us OP atm with 150k+ ticks of sacred shield and 650k WOG's. But if it comes down to 2 tanking a fight with a dps check on a fight that doesn't give 200k+ vengeance . Id rather let a monk Main tank or a blood dk take the vengeance (assuming purely who will do more dps is what were talking about like a hard enrage timer like heroic consorts or pushing P1 heroic lei shen.) Our healing and utility is another story and does need a "fix" of some kind. but we won't get "fixed" till 6.0 because at this point the battle healer nerf is just a blizz bandage. But I expect at least another nerf or warrior/dk/druid buffs in 5.4 because by then every boss will be giving us 250-500k vengeance sustained on heroic most likely and we will continue to outscale other tanks on vengeance.
    Last edited by Moshots; 2013-04-30 at 06:26 AM.

  7. #47
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirque View Post
    I wouldn't say prot is ridiculously OP, but it is very strong. In fact, there's little arguing that it's the strongest tank to take. It's also not just because of 1 thing, like BOP or anything - as mentioned, any paladin brings that. It's basically everything, combined in 1 package, in a 1 class. That's what makes protdins strong. Their damage, healing, and vast vast vast utility is not something you can just ignore.

    That doesn't mean paladins are the best tank in every situation. As recently proven by Paragon I think it was they used a monk tank for Lei Shen, as an example.
    They ran prot paladin and replaced their drood with a monk.
    Nothing you said mattered after that lol...

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziharkk View Post
    If you don't think prot pallies are overpowered, you're not a heroic progression raider.

    And if you think that prot pallies aren't extremely overpowered, you're not a 10 man heroic progression raider.
    And if you're not making broad unconstructive generalizations that suggest zero direct knowledge of the subject, then you're not an MMO-champ poster! :P

  9. #49
    Its just stupid how strong they are. For example when we do challenge modes, our prot pala goes FULL t15 ret gear with dps trinkets and shitloads of haste.

    Guess what? He tops damage AND healing. He barely need healing so our disc priest just smites.

    Dps is usually something like this on bosses

    1. Prot Pal 100k
    2. Mage 97k
    3. Disc priest 90k
    4. Ele sham 89k
    5. Hunter 85k

    They really need a nerf

  10. #50
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    I think people in general are hallucinating about paladins being too high in raid healing. If you actually examine the heal/s numbers on a real parse, Battle Insight only usually comes out to somewhere between 20%-25% of the paladin's heal/s. The remainder of it is going to be predominantly Sacred Shield and Seal of Insight, which are components of the damage intake balance which happen to be scored as "healing" by the methodology of looking at a heal meter. If those components were removed hypothetically, you would immediately feel like Paladins were the worst tank, because those are not somehow bonus heal/s numbers, that's part of the class balance as a whole.

    Furthermore, if you examine the actual damage input characteristics, paladins are not OP whatsoever, in fact in reality they take more damage on average at a given gear level than most of the other classes. The reason that we perceive them as OP is just two factors --

    1) Most tank-killing encounters in current content have telegraphed physical attacks that SotR can be proactively lined up for; and
    2) Most tank-killing encounters in current content have a stacking debuff that can be Bubbled/BoP'ed.

    #2 is not necessarily unique to having a paladin tank, it just requires paladins in the raid and intelligent /cancelaura macros from the tanking player.

    #1 is not an issue with class balance whatsoever, it's on the encounter designers.

    The same exact nonsense was happening when DK's were mandatory in pre-nerf Dragonsoul heroics and Ulduar hardmodes, but the typical exaggerrators you find complaining on the internet conveniently don't remember that.
    I don't get where people get that 20-25%? Okay, that is battle healer heal proportion, but that does not mean it's the number which prot paladin heals the raid because there is much more.

    1) You switch SS to other tank when you're not tanking yourself.
    2) You have WoGs (that should be used to raid heal if needed)
    3) Lay on Hands
    4) Holy Prism

    I checked some logs we had from Iron Qon (which we 2 tanked when neither of tanks had off spec) and I from my total healing 57 % was done on me, which means that 43 % of all my hps was raid healing. I think it's quite huge. Prot paladins raid healing is much more than 20-25 % of his overall healing (if played properly).

  11. #51
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Well, on the patch notes there's a nerf for the healing part you mention. Glyph of the Battle Healer is being nerfed from 30% to 20% of I recall, I know there's the healing nerf, that's it. And I don't mind not being nerfed, Paladins have been in a bad state earlier.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  12. #52
    This isn't really an issue. Prot pally's do heal a lot but its being nerfed and that is really only spot they excel in that other tanks don't.

    Also, did it bother anyone else how many times OP said pala? idk why it just bothers me

  13. #53
    The worry I have about this is that the healers in my guild are the weaker players in our whole outfit and our prot paladin was putting out some very impressive numbers with battle healer - so I think once the nerf goes through my healers won't be able to adjust to the missing healing that our tank has been doing.
    Signature dunked by a lame MMO Champ robot.

  14. #54
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Choice View Post
    Check again. Monk was healing and the Druid was present.

    Nothing you sa- nah its cool ill let you off.
    http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...-blade/Paragon

    Pala tanked, the OP i responded to suggested that he was benched either for monk or drood, which in itself is ludicrous...
    Last edited by mmoc51f27689b0; 2013-04-30 at 07:24 AM.

  15. #55
    Prot paladins don't need nerfing, you just don't understand how they work and are one of those people who read damage meters after a fight and take it at face value without understanding any of what those numbers actually mean or where they come from.

    My team has cleared all content and we don't have a paladin on it at all. No pala tanks, no pala heals, and certainly no lulrets.

    If you're raid team is bad, people just need to learn how to accept that instead of looking for something to hate on like prot pallies because maybe, in some part of the world, a prot paladin carried a raid as bad as yours past where yours is in progression doesn't mean they are OP and need nerfing.
    I like ponies and I really don't care what you have to say about that.

  16. #56
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Olrox View Post
    The worry I have about this is that the healers in my guild are the weaker players in our whole outfit and our prot paladin was putting out some very impressive numbers with battle healer - so I think once the nerf goes through my healers won't be able to adjust to the missing healing that our tank has been doing.
    Well it's not that big nerf. Let's take example 100k hps from prot pala (which is high but not even close to impossible). With lower hps the nerf is even lower.

    100k hps -> 25 % of healing done is battle healer -> 25k hps from battle healer.

    Battle healer goes from 30 % to 20 % which is a 33 % nerf, which means that after the patch

    25k hps from battle healer (5.2) -> 0.66*25k hps = 16.5k hps (5.3)

    So protadins hps goes from 100k to 100k - (25k - 16.5) = 91.5k hps.

    It's less than 10 %. Hell, holy paladins nerf is close to same nerf in overall hps. I won't do the math and holy pala nerf is propably not that large but anyway, the nerf is not that bad.

  17. #57
    Deleted
    yes most of you are right that bops play a big part in the 1 tanking bit.... but ur missing the part where a prot pala does the SAME HEALING AS A NORMAL HEALER??

    look at all durumu or megera 1 tank fights for example.. u look at healin logs and think they are 4 healin it cause the prot pala is either top or mid of the healing

    a monk or any other tank could not provide that same healing

  18. #58
    Deleted
    People complain about Prot

    > Knowing nothing about Paladin mechanics
    > Doesn't know how to read healing meters

    Yep, typical Paladin whine thread.

    The reason they look so good on healing meters is because a ton of the mitigation shows as healing (SS) and they do self heals via SoI. Battle Insight doesn't do anywhere near the amount you see at first glance, nevermind all dat overheal if your healers aren't braindead as fuck.
    Last edited by mmoc4359933d3d; 2013-04-30 at 07:38 AM.

  19. #59
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    People complain about Prot

    > Knowing nothing about Paladin mechanics
    > Doesn't know how to read healing meters

    Yep, typical Paladin whine thread.

    The reason they look so good on healing meters is because a ton of the mitigation shows as healing (SS) and they do self heals via SoI. Battle Insight doesn't do anywhere near the amount you see at first glance, nevermind all dat overheal if your healers aren't braindead as fuck.
    That is most likely the shortest, yet easiest explanation about it. Was wondering how the OP could claim so high heals, but again, I have two recounts (Recount and Skada) one for DPS/DMG and one for Absorbs (for SS, Illuminated, bubbles and such)
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  20. #60
    Battle healer actually provides a lot less then you expect. What provides a ton of healing, is their sacred shield and seal of insight.

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