Why have Prot palas not been nerfed?

[Tanthalas]

45-50k hps? Are we playing the same game?

150k hps on Megaera? Have you seen what good prot paladins do at last phase in Iron Qon HC? That raid hps as a burst is insane.

Let's see. I opened the #1 prot pala on Iron Qon, selected a time range with heroism (read "last phase") with his hps peak and went to healing by actor tab.

Aaaaand... http://gyazo.com/19165615769eff4aeb9...png?1367317784

73.4% self healing

Who the fuck cares?

[Deleted]

Isn't this getting abit old? Allowing broken specs to exist because fixing them would not help others?

This whole tier has been messed up by how OP paladin tanks are. If you haven't got one that's 4-5 bosses less you can kill in the same time. 1 spec should never get to a state where prot pala is right now.

And just for facts, i don't even play a tank class. Yes ofcourse you can do everything without a paladin tank, but that is like doing all bosses without any raid buffs. You will be severely handicapped.

So when did the lack of paladin make u feel it will be easier with one to go on?

[Kheirn]

I'm just saying that Paladins are not the best tank for fast CM times. while we have the high dps, we lack the mass CC that Deathknights and Warriors bring to the table and that are essential for going for record breaking Gold times.

If we're gonna talk about Challenge Modes we can completely scrap Prot Paladins, we're cruising around the bottom with druids. Almost all record times are held by Monks on both EU and US, which is ironic since they were long considered to be the worst of all for CM. DKs are good, but not even close to monks, and Warriors are just behind DKs.

I also more or less frown upon those saying that all of a Prot Paladins healing and damage is automatic. Yes, a fairly large portion of it is, but there is a huge difference between a decent, good and highly skilled paladin. I don't burst for 250k on Durumu by just running in and start spanking using my normal rotation. Pre-potting and CD timing plays a much larger role now than before. Yes, I need Vengeance to do it, but now I can actually contribute to the raid. To unleash a Paladins full potential you need a certain level of raid awareness. Using Sacred Shield on 110k Vengeance instead of just keeping that 30k shield makes a huge difference in the long run.

When I tanked on my monk someone recommended an addon to track Vengeance, my response was "Cool, but I don't see how I would need that in any way". All of the monks skills are either used on cooldown or scale dynamically, so there's no need to be aware of your Vengeance levels. This however is not true for paladins. Timing skills with your vengeance is vital to bring the most out of your class.

I agree that a bit of tweaking could be in place, but it's a fine line as it could risk destroying haste completely which imo would take out a lot of the fun in playing a prot paladin.

[Dorfie]

Anyone denying that prot paladins aren't insane is kidding themselves. They can put out more DPS and HPS than any other tank while having insane survival and raid utility. So what if 70% of their 70k HPS is self healing? that's still about 20k extra raid HPS you are getting, 20k more than any other tank brings.

I'm happy if they go on without getting nerfed though, our 10 man has one.

[Deleted]

Let's see. I opened the #1 prot pala on Iron Qon, selected a time range with heroism (read "last phase") with his hps peak and went to healing by actor tab.

Aaaaand... http://gyazo.com/19165615769eff4aeb9...png?1367317784

73.4% self healing

Who the fuck cares?

If you look at the total hps for that kill, its 70% self heal, the interesting fact is that the paladin did roughly 7,8 million raid heal.
Thats 6,5 times more then the combined self healing of everyone excluding healers.

Even if cut that by 40% (his total overhealing, incl soi, ss etc) its still insanely much lol...
To put that into perspective, my warrior did 4 times less SELF HEALING than the paladin did RAID HEALING...

Ye, im on the "paladins are broken" train...

[Tomhvk]

Anyone denying that prot paladins aren't insane is kidding themselves. They can put out more DPS and HPS than any other tank while having insane survival and raid utility. So what if 70% of their 70k HPS is self healing? that's still about 20k extra raid HPS you are getting, 20k more than any other tank brings.

I'm happy if they go on without getting nerfed though, our 10 man has one.

While i agree prot pala hps is insane, Monk with hit/exp+haste pulls the same or more dps than a prot pala

[Tanthalas]

If you look at the total hps for that kill, its 70% self heal, the interesting fact is that the paladin did roughly 7,8 million raid heal.
Thats 6,5 times more then the combined self healing of everyone excluding healers.

Even if cut that by 40% (his total overhealing, incl soi, ss etc) its still insanely much lol...

And divided by the fight length, it's 13700 raid hps. Which is ~5 times less than everyone here claiming pala overpowerness. And it has nothing to do with the rest of the raid excluding healers healing combined.
You're forgetting that your goal is to bring boss' HP from 100% to 0% and not to compete in selfhealing.

[Deleted]

And divided by the fight length, it's 13700 raid hps. Which is ~5 times less than everyone here claiming pala overpowerness. And it has nothing to do with the rest of the raid excluding healers healing combined.
You're forgetting that your goal is to bring boss' HP from 100% to 0% and not to compete in selfhealing.

I'm not forgetting anything, thats not whats being discussed here...
14k raid hps from a tank is pretty big whichever way you slice it.

I dont mind one tank being the topdog, someone always has to be.
But the gap is way to big atm.

[Deleted]

Brewmasters do more damage than Prot Paladins.

[Tanthalas]

I'm not forgetting anything, thats not whats being discussed here...
14k raid hps from a tank is pretty big whichever way you slice it.

I dont mind one tank being the topdog, someone always has to be.
But the gap is way to big atm.

We just shouldn't judge it only from that point of view. Especially when I'm doing around the same HPS on monk.
My own concern with palas is only Sotr giving them overpowered tool to dramatically reduce damage from tank-swap-strikes mechanics.

DK tanks are overpowered on Dark Animus hc, resetting debuffs from the biggest golems by AMS. Animus being second hardest boss in ToT - should they be nerfed or something?

[Deleted]

DK tanks are overpowered on Dark Animus hc, resetting debuffs from the biggest golems by AMS. Animus being second hardest boss in ToT - should they be nerfed or something?

Instead of focusing on other classes currently not being discussed, why not provide some hard facts as to why paladins arent overpowered or shouldn't be nerfed ?
Having niché abilites is fine, making a big portion of a tier facerollable by 1 class, not so much.

If blizzards design intent is to have tanks heal a big portion (think smiting) then they need to give rest of the tanks the same toolkit or simply nerf the offenders, you cant have it both ways...

[Dazu]

This is the same as the debate back when we had judgement of light. You have to remember the reason it seems so high is because it automatically heals so often for many small amounts. This means when people are at 99% and a healer isnt even thinking of healing them they get a small top up. The effectiveness of the heal is what really matters. They may be high on the recount meter, but most of those meters are broken with how they record anyway. I remember topping the HPS in BC using judgement of light, but in reality all it did was remove some of the strain on the healers or possibly cut back one. It worked great in helping keep the bars topped up but in no way could really do much in total in heavy AoE damage situations.

The real solution isnt a nerf, but to add back in the bonuses that other tanks all had previously (except warriors/monks but they could be easily added) such ad LoTP for druids healing raid members and DK getting back their blood aura or glyphed rune tap (1% of the DK's damage heals the nearest XX players for aura or 5% of max health to members from tap etc). Warriors could get so Victory Rush applied a small splash heal aswell. Monks could just have a change to equal up the splash healing and make it more steady.

Funny the same problem with most of these arguments raised in here could be applied to Disc Priests aswell, being able to DPS well and heal strongly via atonement is doubling up on a role. A resto druid cant sit their spamming wrath and having its damage heal the raid.

[Enosh]

yes I'm quite sure other tanks can 1 tank some stuff with 2 palas in the raid

problem with that
a) none but the monk brings the raid wide extra healing that a pala does, I guess there are bloodworms but those are laughable in comparison
b) pala tanks aren't exactly bad even without the whole debuff clearing thing, qite sure even if BoP wouldn't remove shit that top guilds (and most guilds for that matter) would still run with pala+off tank
c) it means you either bring 2 holy palies which is crazy in a 10 man or you bring a holy pala and a ret pala, which takes up one of your 1 to 2 melee spots and isn't exactly all that hot as far as melee dps goes, plus divine shield clears debuffs just as easy as BoP allowing you to BoP someone else in an emergency while still clearing debuffs as normal, something any other tank can't provide

[Deja Thoris]

Instead of focusing on other classes currently not being discussed, why not provide some hard facts as to why paladins arent overpowered or shouldn't be nerfed ?
Having niché abilites is fine, making a big portion of a tier facerollable by 1 class, not so much.

If blizzards design intent is to have tanks heal a big portion (think smiting) then they need to give rest of the tanks the same toolkit or simply nerf the offenders, you cant have it both ways...

You cant compare them so simply.
A druid has more armor and dodges attacks, what is there to heal?
A DK has bloodshield which is a heal on par with that of a pala.
A warrior take a LOT less dmg than a pala passively

Take a warrior and a pala. Warrior gets 100k hit, 25% less dmg passively and shield barrier absorbs some. Pala takes full hit and sacred shield absorbs some and seal of insight heals a bit. It's the same outcome, just one pads the meters.

I couldn't give a hoot if they nerf clemency or even bubbles removing debuffs, that hasn't affected our raid progression one bit.

[Deleted]

Take a warrior and a pala. Warrior gets 100k hit, 25% less dmg passively and shield barrier absorbs some. Pala takes full hit and sacred shield absorbs some and seal of insight heals a bit. It's the same outcome, just one pads the meters.

Except we're talking about RAID healing here.
Sacred shield is as passive as you can get.
Shield barrier has to be applied(and costs resources, you spend a global) and more often than not is not used, in favor of shield block, for damage and more consistent damage mitigation.

Yes, warrior do get 25% passive while pala only gets 15%, in the same breath, paladins get 25% bonus stamina, warriors get 15%.
But ye, my biggest issue is still bop and how its benefited this tier, one class will always be top, cant avoid it

[Iso]

It's not about BoP or bubble.

It's about being extremly versatile with close to no weakness. It dosen't help that this whole tier is based around fights where bosses have this one big attack that comes every so often. With the haste levels paladins are currently attack their SotR uptimes are becomming bizzarly high, and their mastery values is also skyrocketing.
Add decent raid utility, good effective healing and a cooldown for every possible situation and you have yourself a very solid tank. And high vengeance just makes it even more retarded.

Monks and warriors are not far behind, but lack in some of the departments prot paladins stil rate high at. Blood and guardian are at the bottom, vulrable to spike damage and got shit all for raid utility.

[Deja Thoris]

Yes, warrior do get 25% passive while pala only gets 15%, in the same breath, paladins get 25% bonus stamina, warriors get 15%.
But ye, my biggest issue is still bop and how its benefited this tier, one class will always be top, cant avoid it

Can't deny that. If "x" is best in the next tier will we have outrage threads that they need to be nerfed?

Most likely.

It's hardly productive though.

[Deleted]

Lol at all the people saying paladins do not do good raid healing.

check this random log of a Megeara rampage phase and tell me they dont do good healing

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2856&e=2883

Wazie 5195876 24.55% 186486.1 185573.6
Glennis 4404594 20.81% 158086.1 157312.5
Dekko 4040958 19.09% 145034.7 144325.1
Malchediel 3918063 18.51% 140623.9 139935.


so 1st place is a priest
2nd place is a druid
3rd place is a PALADIN TANK
4th place is a holy pala


Obviously each healer uses different cds on diff rampages... but this is merely an example of wot they are capable of... show me a monk/warrior/dk/druid that can do that kind of healing consistantly?

[Snuzzfizzle]

One of the reasons why Prot Paladins are so strong is because of Haste scaling with all of their abilities. Haste increases their damage reduction, their damage and their healing. No other tank profits from a secondary stat this much as a Prot Paladin does.
Warriors and DK almost gain nothing from stacking a certain secondary stat. Monks already do more damage than Paladins and Guard already contributes to as much raid healing as Battle Healer does.

This is what needs to be changed - other than not letting BoP reset tank debuffs.
Bring Warriors, DKs (and Druids) in line with Paladins and Monks. Let them scale with Haste or Crit and get rid of Dodge and Parry once and for all.

Even if cut that by 40% (his total overhealing, incl soi, ss etc) its still insanely much lol...

Ye, im on the "paladins are broken" train...

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...n_Qon/10H/dps/

Check the top 20 damage rankings on that boss. 17 of them are Brewmaster monks. Comparing their raid healing to the raid healing of a Prot Paladin shows that they're almost equal. However, they deal *a lot* more damage.
So what I'm seeing here is that Monks are OP and need to be nerfed, right?

[berrylicious]

Lets look at numbers, below taken from the current highest ranked tanks on 10H Iron Qon on WoL. All 5 logs were 1 tanked, so HoP is not a factor here.

Unfortunately, WoL only gives ranking based on DPS, so this might be skewing the numbers as tanks put on more dps gear and less survival gear for higher dps/hps numbers.


Monk:
DPS - 310509.6
Damage Taken per Second - 193468.8
Total HPS - 89833.6
Percentage of HPS on self heal - 50.1%
HPS on Raid - 44826.9

Paladin:
DPS - 257547.5
Damage Taken per Second - 101989.3
Total HPS - 93195.2
Percentage of HPS on self heal = 66.2 %
HPS on Raid - 40819.5

DK:
DPS - 218621.7
Damage Taken per Second - 115952.3
Total HPS - 67214.7
Percentage of HPS on self heal = 100.0 %
HPS on Raid - 0

Bear:
DPS - 238682.1
Damage Taken per Second - 104475.5
HPS - 20928.5
Percentage of HPS on self heal = 100.0 %
HPS on Raid - 0

Warrior:
DPS - 170197.3
Damage Taken per Second - 105857.2
HPS - 578221.7
Percentage of HPS on self heal = 100.0 %
HPS on Raid - 0


Damage done:
monk > pally > bear > dk > warrior

Damage Taken
pally > bear > warrior > dk >> monk

Raid HPS: Monk > Pally


TL : DR
** Disclaimer: this is looking at one log from each class only. There is a good chance some of these numbers can be skewed due to unconventional gear setup by the player. **

Damage Taken:
Bear, DK, Monk, Pally are all at around the same number on damage taken. The difference is 13k DTPS from highest to lowest. Monks are taking a lot more damage.

Damage Output:
Monk are high, this may be due to monks dropping survival gear for DPS gear to push out dps. Warriors are low, Skull Banner will bridge this gap a bit from improved raid DPS though (esp 25s).

Utility:
Monk a lot of raid heal is an absorb from statue, very effective at helping raid survival.
Pally bring significant raid heal and Devotion Aura, nice strong balance
Warrior do not heal, but have strong raid CDs in banners and Rallying Cry
Druid Stampeding roar is very helpful on fight when movement is required, rebirth/tranq can be useful sometimes.
DKs Grips are nice but situational. AMZ is the same, not always useful

DKs will need a buff to bring them up on par in most areas. Pally should have either their healing or raid CD toned down (already done with nerf on the Battle Healer Glyph?). Not sure what you can do with monks though, their scaling on damage intake (and hence healing/dps/damage taken) are all skewed on the few logs I've looked at.