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  1. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You make it sound like tanks cannot do all of the normal "position, interrupt, debuff, survive" roles while simultaneously performing their damaging abilities. It's not one or the other, you can (and should) do both. Blizz knows it's possible, and as pointed out, balances heroic encounters around the assumption that it is the norm. Most anyone worth their salt at tanking can do the "put boss in right place, don't put self in wrong place" activities. They then only have to worry about not dying themselves. After that is attainable/achieved (which is even earlier this tier than normal, since Blizz decided to make this more about mechanic mastery than overall brute force of boss power), all that you have left to "improve" is damage throughput.
    See my above commentary; new tanks are not learning what their role actually is because they're masquerading as damage dealers. You may say "that's in LFR, who cares?" The answer, of course, is everyone. Recruitment churn has been a part of the game since its inception, and with new tanks not learning the fundamentals, guilds are going to have to try and teach them. The previous druid I tanked with thought Growl was a part of his threat rotation.

    That's what I'm talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    The introduction of meaningful damage...
    Nice try. I was contributing meaningful damage before the introduction of Vengeance, so don't start arguing that suddenly it's only Vengeance that's made it happen. That's complete and utter hogwash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    ...and the advent of active mitigation saved the tank population (for the experienced tanks, anyway) from extinction as ANYONE who has been tanking since Vanilla or BC will tell you that the meat shield, dodge/parry stat bank method of tanking was neither fun nor engaging. There was no skill cap, there was no reward for playing well, and you were still subject to the RNG gods of avoidance.
    What tank classes were you playing? Protection warriors were already pretty active, given that they had to think about Thunder Clap, Demoralizing Shout, Shield Block, Sunder Armour, major cooldowns AND threat/damage. Hell, during Cataclysm, keeping Rend up was a fun and engaging part of this. You say there was no skill cap when there was, so I can only surmise you were playing a paladin; the most passive tank of the lot where mandatory debuffs are applied for you.

    But I think your next comment needs a dose of reality - it's currently missing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Vengeance gives this.
    So, you're arguing that Vengeance gives the following (taken from your previous comment):

    - Active mitigation.
    - A break from avoidance gearing.
    - More fun and engagement.
    - A skill cap.

    Active mitigation: In most cases, wholly devolved from Vengeance. My toolkit consists of Shield Block, Disarm, Thunderclap, Demoralizing Shout, Demoralizing Banner, Last Stand, Shield Wall, Rallying Cry, Pummel and Spell Reflect. The only exception is Shield Barrier, which could be more easily scaled from mastery.

    Avoidance gearing: Hit and expertise are now valuable for resource generation, completely devolved from Vengeance and applicable in lieu of it.

    Fun and engaging gameplay: Sanctity of Battle has nothing to do with Vengeance whatsoever, and is probably the best example of how to make tanking more fun.

    A skill cap: This is so off the mark it's almost funny. Your active mitigation buttons (and major cooldowns) all work entirely independently of Vengeance.

    Vengeance gives nothing - absolutely nothing. Everything you're saying Vengeance does can be done entirely independent of it, and we know this because we managed to do it in WotLK and before. For someone that's played so long, your memory is starting to fail you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    If you can't see why it's needed in order to keep scaling appropriate in both PVE and PVP, then you don't even deserve an answer to the question.
    Read as:

    "I haven't a clue how to convince you, so I'll hide behind a thin veil of incredulous sneering".

    Your argument has been weighed, measured and found wanting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    It's obvious; every tank's self heal/absorb mechanics HAVE to be based on AP scaling to prevent glaring imbalances in PVP making them immortal (or, on the other extreme, making them so frail in PVE that boss damage is laughably low). Sure you can draft up wild theories of making new scalars from mastery or crit or spirit to "fix" something that isn't inherently broken, but you have to know that it sounds ridiculous.
    Sure, you can draft up wild theories of how Vengeance tried to "fix" something that wasn't inherently broken, but you have to know that it sounds ridiculous.

    An enrage mechanic that inflates tank DPS needlessly, makes taunt swaps frustrating, causes output and mitigation to fluctuate wildly, is causing bad habits amongst new tanks and needs to be disabled in PvP because it breaks the game. The methods of AP scaling prior to Cataclysm were far simpler and more transparent, and mastery could easily be used to plug any awkward gaps.

    Yet again, we have another failure to defend Vengeance.

    Who's up next?

  2. #462
    Deleted
    Nobody is argueing that there are not other ways to achieve the same results that vengeance have with less side effects. However if you look in current live version, simply removing vengeance would be god awful.

    First of to comment some stuff you mentioned.



    Avoidance gearing: Hit and expertise are now valuable for resource generation, completely devolved from Vengeance and applicable in lieu of it.
    Yes, but also crit and haste is getting more value for monks, druids and paladins. As a paladin I very much like getting crit on some of my gear, since I know that the damage output from the T15 bosses is trivial, 5% dodge will not help me anything, 5% crit will make the boss die faster. So it is not only hit/expertise.


    Fun and engaging gameplay: Sanctity of Battle has nothing to do with Vengeance whatsoever, and is probably the best example of how to make tanking more fun.

    A skill cap: This is so off the mark it's almost funny. Your active mitigation buttons (and major cooldowns) all work entirely independently of Vengeance.
    This both fall in the same category. While vengeance directly does not contribute anything to any of these categories, it still does.
    First off, seeing yourself competeting with the dps on the damage meter is more fun than seeing yourself compete with the shamans magma totem and the hunters wolf. Also while it has no direct impact to your game play. Tanking is like solving a rubix cube while singing opera while driving a car. Lets say driving is the damage dealing part. What vengeance does is basically puts you on a race track and says "If you finnish with a good time you get good rewards". Naturally you are gonna focus more on the driving part than the rubix and singing part.

    And that is what vengeance accomplishes there. It puts more focus into your dps rotation. If clicking a random button or clicking the correct button is a difference between 5k or 50k dps with or without vengeance, naturally you are gonna have to focus more with vengeance since the reward is bigger. Getting one more task to complete to perfection takes away focus from the other too, juggling all balls in the air at the same time makes it harder, increasing the skill cap and the fun (challenge) of the role.

    Vengeance did nothing to actually change what you do, however it changes your priorities and tasks to complete, increasing both the challenge and the skill cap further differenting the bad tanks from the good tank.

    Bad Tank - Dies
    Average Tank - Survives
    Good Tank - Survives and assist the raid whenever possible.
    Great Tank - Survives, assist the raid whenever possible and dish out a ton of damage

    Having an additional layer of what differents a better tank from a worse is good.



    Nice try. I was contributing meaningful damage before the introduction of Vengeance, so don't start arguing that suddenly it's only Vengeance that's made it happen. That's complete and utter hogwash.
    How about, no?


    You also have to remember why vengeance was implemented in the first place. DPSers dps increased faster than a tanks DPS due to dps stacking dps stats and tanks tank stats. Vengeance was a way for tanks AP to increase as tiers progressed and bosses started to hit harder so that threat would not become a huge issue in later tiers. Removing vengeance would need tanks to get a much increased baseline AP or threat modifier through the roof.

    Threat modifier through the roof would completely trivialize threat (even more than now) and tanks would be encouraged to play badly, as there threat does not matter and there damage does not matter. You would see the good tanks (The ones that actually cared about min-maxing) disappearing, as tanking would no longer be appealable. You have no challenge in threat, surviving has never been hard and your damage do not matter? Why would you still play tanks?
    So you would see a large decline in tanks, especially the good tanks and you got a style of playing that discourages tanks from getting better at their class.
    Having less tanks in the current game would not be good since we are already low on tanks. I really wish they would remove LFG to bring the community back a bit more.

    So the second option, heavily increase tanks AP. Now this would be a better choice. The possible issues that this bring up would be that tanks would probably still be competetive on the dps, and this brings up the legit issue of now actually stacking tanks can be viable. You could see stuff like 5 tanks 3 dps 2 healers on a boss fight, since all the tanks deal a good amount of damage and some tank classes healing while taking less damage. Why would they bring dpsers? Maybe a fight deals a ton of damage but the enrage is non issue. Fine, bring 6 tanks 4 healers and be done with it. You can see how this would bring up a million problems that we can not ever forsee. The second big issue is with PvP, they would have to completely rebalance tanks for PvP.

  3. #463
    Why do alot think that only cause they do dmg is fun.

    BC tanking in sunwell was fun aswell. WotLK wasnt that bad either. Cataclysm was very easy to tank even the heroics.

    Now even if you do more damage than all the other classes, well there are just a few bosses where tanks do alot more dmg than your dps. playing a tank is more fun due to AM and Rage/HP/Chi management. In cata you could just afk, and still kill the boss. Now you have to actually do something to have good dps and survivability.

    In other expansions tank dmg was still important not as much but even back than a bad dps tank was bad.

    And just posting WoL and saying: see pala and monks do alot of dmg, says nothing at all. Its not like tanks just get hit and do more dmg than all the others. Now look at the top logs alot of tanks do dps but suffer uptimes. And still so many people dont know how to do max dmg on their tanks.

    IF your tanks do more dps on every fight than your Wl mage or rogues. Then they are just bad.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    See my above commentary; new tanks are not learning what their role actually is because they're masquerading as damage dealers. You may say "that's in LFR, who cares?" The answer, of course, is everyone. Recruitment churn has been a part of the game since its inception, and with new tanks not learning the fundamentals, guilds are going to have to try and teach them. The previous druid I tanked with thought Growl was a part of his threat rotation.

    That's what I'm talking about.
    So, you're asserting that everyone who is rolling a tank is doing so under the sneaky premise of trolling traditional DPS classes by using vengeance? That's a pretty hefty conspiracy theory you've got. You know a bad tank who taunts on cooldown, as I'm sure we all do. They were around in Vanilla, BC, and every expansion since. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion at all? Are you seriously suggesting that removing vengeance (or any mechanic, for that matter) will inherently make that role/class/spec's playerbase better?

    Nice try. I was contributing meaningful damage before the introduction of Vengeance, so don't start arguing that suddenly it's only Vengeance that's made it happen. That's complete and utter hogwash.
    Well, my friend, you must have been the first tank ever to do damage. Allow us all to wait in line for autographs. Nobody (myself included) is arguing that vengeance is some magic panacea. It is a means to an end for scaling of abilities that allow for easy tuning in both PVE and PVP, which has a side effect of damage. Stop trying to make mountains out of molehills with comments that put the words "vengeance" and "damage" in the same sentence.

    What tank classes were you playing? Protection warriors were already pretty active, given that they had to think about Thunder Clap, Demoralizing Shout, Shield Block, Sunder Armour, major cooldowns AND threat/damage. Hell, during Cataclysm, keeping Rend up was a fun and engaging part of this. You say there was no skill cap when there was, so I can only surmise you were playing a paladin; the most passive tank of the lot where mandatory debuffs are applied for you.
    Every tank class at max level since LK. Prot warrior weren't any more or less "active" than they were bloated. You're mentioning abilities in a vacuum across various expansions, and following it up with a "you didn't think it was hard so you're wrong" as if it makes it gospel. Sure, we can look at original shield block and shield spec and say that "well I had to hit this button every 6 seconds, so it was really active!". Ok, you may call that active, but everyone else calls it tedious, monotonous, and boring. Just because something is required in repetition doesn't make it skillful. I'm not arguing that Paladin or DK or Druid is any harder, because it's not.

    But I think your next comment needs a dose of reality - it's currently missing it.

    So, you're arguing that Vengeance gives the following (taken from your previous comment):

    - Active mitigation.
    - A break from avoidance gearing.
    - More fun and engagement.
    - A skill cap.
    No, vengeance itself does not provide any of those. Vengeance DOES provide: tunable real-time scaling of AM abilities, an element of fun to the user, and an avenue for skillcap once content is no longer fully threatening (by allowing tanks to provide meaningful damage). Avoidance gearing is really only a "thing" for 2 classes anymore, which consequently are the ones that do not scale with "offensive" secondaries. I made no mention of how vengeance affects these classes in my post ((though I have prior), merely that the "fun" element I was referring to is largely due to the departure from reliance on avoidance/meatshield gearing.

    Active mitigation: In most cases, wholly devolved from Vengeance. My toolkit consists of Shield Block, Disarm, Thunderclap, Demoralizing Shout, Demoralizing Banner, Last Stand, Shield Wall, Rallying Cry, Pummel and Spell Reflect. The only exception is Shield Barrier, which could be more easily scaled from mastery.

    Avoidance gearing: Hit and expertise are now valuable for resource generation, completely devolved from Vengeance and applicable in lieu of it.

    Fun and engaging gameplay: Sanctity of Battle has nothing to do with Vengeance whatsoever, and is probably the best example of how to make tanking more fun.

    A skill cap: This is so off the mark it's almost funny. Your active mitigation buttons (and major cooldowns) all work entirely independently of Vengeance. [
    Not sure what this section was about? But will touch on it anyway:

    SoB is a great example of how to make tanking more fun and visceral. It has a high, perhaps TOO high interaction with vengeance, but it is a great method to emulate if the dev's choose to have DK/warrior follow suit for stat scaling. I'd like to see veng max values cut across the board, to prevent scaling disasters like we are seeing/will see.

    And yes, we've already established that AM can work outside of veng, but thanks for the reminder I guess?

    Vengeance gives nothing - absolutely nothing. Everything you're saying Vengeance does can be done entirely independent of it, and we know this because we managed to do it in WotLK and before. For someone that's played so long, your memory is starting to fail you.
    We also made do without various other classes, abilities, mechanics, and a plethora of other things since the dark ages. If you want to go back to WLK and stand in Dalaran shouting how great everything is, you can check out the ATR.

    Read as: "I haven't a clue how to convince you, so I'll hide behind a thin veil of incredulous sneering".
    Read it how you like, but I stand by the statement that if you cannot see why vengeance is implemented with the current tank AM systems if for no other reason that PVP balance, I don't know how any other, more specific examples will make a difference.

    Your argument has been weighed, measured and found wanting.
    Measurements are only as good as the tools used to take them. But hey, I forgot your opinion was somehow more valid and also factual.

    Sure, you can draft up wild theories of how Vengeance tried to "fix" something that wasn't inherently broken, but you have to know that it sounds ridiculous.

    An enrage mechanic that inflates tank DPS needlessly, makes taunt swaps frustrating, causes output and mitigation to fluctuate wildly, is causing bad habits amongst new tanks and needs to be disabled in PvP because it breaks the game. The methods of AP scaling prior to Cataclysm were far simpler and more transparent, and mastery could easily be used to plug any awkward gaps.
    If tank swaps are frustrating, you need better tanks. Not sure how you plan to make mastery plug these "awkward gaps" but I'd love to hear your suggestions.

    Yet again, we have another failure to defend Vengeance.
    So sayeth....some disgruntled poster on a forum.

    Look, the burden of proof is on you to show why it's broken and so far all you've done is prance around like your opinion about what is hard, or skillful, or fair is somehow more correct or accurate than anyone else's, specifically Blizzard's. I'll be the first to say they're not batting 1000 on balance, but I'm inclined to believe their tools and data sets far more than one wildly fanatical and clearly emotionally invested poster. You have yet to show any examples of how to "fix" what you deem as "broken", or even why its "broken" in the first place to the point of needing scrapped.

    I look forward to hearing any suggestions on how to actually determine the "problem" as well as formulate any answer that does not consist of "it's easy to do, just move around mastery". If you can manage to respond without getting so emotional that you randomly quote replies and address issues in response that aren't even in the original comment, perhaps we can get somewhere.

    Else, I feel that arguing with someone so emotionally invested in a topic such as this will only make the both of us look crazy to readers.

    Who's up next?[/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  5. #465
    Deleted
    So basically DPS-guy is mad he got beat on the DPS-meters by a tank, now calls out for nerfs for that tank (that happened to be a prot-pally)?

    I think this DPS-guy should go and read up on vengeance & AP-stacking and the reasons why tanks can dish out huge damage.
    Check Raidbots.com for example, do you see Prot Paladins in the top of the DPS there? Nope, didnt think so.

    I bear-tank on my main, and I top DPS some fights as well, does that mean Bear-druids should get nerfed too?

    Oh, just had to add this little bit as well to the angry DPS-guy to rub it in even further:

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    IF your tanks do more dps on every fight than your Wl mage or rogues. Then they are just bad.
    Last edited by mmocf94708a214; 2013-05-15 at 02:57 PM.

  6. #466
    Honestly, at the end of the day, I'd rather Blizzard just make the other tanks functionally as useful as prot paladins for raid utility purposes.

  7. #467
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Why do alot think that only cause they do dmg is fun.

    BC tanking in sunwell was fun aswell. WotLK wasnt that bad either. Cataclysm was very easy to tank even the heroics.

    Now even if you do more damage than all the other classes, well there are just a few bosses where tanks do alot more dmg than your dps. playing a tank is more fun due to AM and Rage/HP/Chi management. In cata you could just afk, and still kill the boss. Now you have to actually do something to have good dps and survivability.

    In other expansions tank dmg was still important not as much but even back than a bad dps tank was bad.

    And just posting WoL and saying: see pala and monks do alot of dmg, says nothing at all. Its not like tanks just get hit and do more dmg than all the others. Now look at the top logs alot of tanks do dps but suffer uptimes. And still so many people dont know how to do max dmg on their tanks.

    IF your tanks do more dps on every fight than your Wl mage or rogues. Then they are just bad.
    For me tanking has been fun in different stages. In WotLK, tanking was fun because I could dispell so much. Always keeping that extra eye on the raid, being prepared to dispell people. I also had some weaker heals that I was ready to use at all time. However then they removed (pretty much) dispells from tanks, so dispelling was a non-option any more, which to me made tanks boring.

    In Cata, we got WoG. Which was fun. I spent most of my time as tank watching the raid frames, being prepared to snipe people that went low, which in 25H happens a lot. On a given raid day, I saved countless of lives with a WoG snipe.

    What is the common thing here, is that through it all, the actual tanking was pretty boring. It was having that extra task, dispelling, healing, supporting, etc, that made tanking feel fun, since you had more stuff to do.

    In MoP, they pretty much ruined our healing, so now we can not do that anymore, now damage is that extra task. So while I agree, there are more fun stuff than doing damage, they have removed those stuff. Throughout the expansion we had different toys to play with in our sandbox, but everytime we got a new toy, the removed the old. Currently that toy is DPS.

    Throughout it all, tanking has never been the fun part of tanking for me, since it is way to easy and dull. I like the challenge to push myself to the limit.
    I gotta say though that during WotLK and Cata, I payed a lot more attention to the actual boss fights, which is something that comes to my mind now, that I knew the scenery better, knew how the raids looked and such. Spend way to much time focusing on my rotation now, but guess that is an effect of both AM and vengeance

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 03:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    Honestly, at the end of the day, I'd rather Blizzard just make the other tanks functionally as useful as prot paladins for raid utility purposes.
    This is WoW. What we have learned in this thread is that we can not strive for everyone to have fun. The goal is for everyone to be as miserable as the next person. Only nerf, never buff.

  8. #468
    Blademaster Prokk's Avatar
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    I find it quite piquant that most of these "complaints" are from DPS players getting beat by a tank and/or have yet to experience ANY heroic bosses this tier where taking advantage of Vengeance aides in the taking down of a boss.

    The spec is not broken whatsoever. In the right hands, ANY tank class can be OP. It's called "knowing your class"... quite simple.

    "I am Rei Shen, prease!!"

  9. #469
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Prokk View Post
    I find it quite piquant that most of these "complaints" are from DPS players getting beat by a tank and/or have yet to experience ANY heroic bosses this tier where taking advantage of Vengeance aides in the taking down of a boss.

    The spec is not broken whatsoever. In the right hands, ANY tank class can be OP. It's called "knowing your class"... quite simple.
    The majority of these kind of weird complaints mostly comes from people who cant think longer than their own noses length, unsurprisingly.

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    The majority of these kind of weird complaints mostly comes from people who cant think longer than their own noses length, unsurprisingly.
    Hmm.... Touché

    "I am Rei Shen, prease!!"

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post

    This is WoW. What we have learned in this thread is that we can not strive for everyone to have fun. The goal is for everyone to be as miserable as the next person. Only nerf, never buff.
    I don't necessarily think that buffing = fun and nerfing = unfun, because sometimes a nerf is really justified. That said, I've always felt that a raid tank has and always will be one of the most vital roles of a raid. Prot paladins as they are now really bring something to every aspect of a raid, including dps and healing, when played properly, and I really, really wish that the other tanks could bring that same kind of raid power on their own. I've got a rather romantic opinion of what a tank ought to be.

  12. #472
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    I don't necessarily think that buffing = fun and nerfing = unfun, because sometimes a nerf is really justified. That said, I've always felt that a raid tank has and always will be one of the most vital roles of a raid. Prot paladins as they are now really bring something to every aspect of a raid, including dps and healing, when played properly, and I really, really wish that the other tanks could bring that same kind of raid power on their own. I've got a rather romantic opinion of what a tank ought to be.
    I agree fully, and did not mean that nerfs/buffs makes something fun/not fun directly. It depends on what changes is made.

    I.e. buffing DKs with more raid utility would probably make DKs more fun, since having raid utility is fun.
    Whereas a nerf as paladin, reducing SotR by 5% is neither fun or boring, really does not matter, just a number tune.

    Basically, buffs / nerfs that change the way you play is fun/boring, number tunings does not really matter (however tuning numbers can change the way to play)

  13. #473
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    I've got a rather romantic opinion of what a tank ought to be.
    I need a hero
    I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night
    He's gotta be strong, he's gotta be fast
    And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
    I need a hero
    I'm holding out for a hero 'til the morning light
    He's gotta be sure, he's gotta be soon
    And he's gotta be larger than life, larger than life

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    If it was abundantly clear that tanks are not in a raid to do DPS, they might start thinking about their more legitimate (traditional?) role.
    why should something be made clear taht just isn't true now? it might have been true last year in cata but it sure as hell isn't now
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    So do I, and I did so long before the advent of Vengeance. The problem is that a lot of tanks in half-decent guilds are now foregoing their defensive role so that they can pump out more DPS.
    knowing how to keep up your survivability so you don't become a liability or a strain on your healers and how at the same time push out as much dps as possible takes imho a lot more skill than just knowing where to stand, when to push a def CD and at how many stacks to taunt, especially since you still need to know how to do all of this

  15. #475
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    why should something be made clear taht just isn't true now? it might have been true last year in cata but it sure as hell isn't now
    What, seriously? I've already answered this. Please, please read the post you're quoting in its entirety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    knowing how to keep up your survivability so you don't become a liability or a strain on your healers and how at the same time push out as much dps as possible takes imho a lot more skill than just knowing where to stand, when to push a def CD and at how many stacks to taunt, especially since you still need to know how to do all of this
    Yet in Cataclysm, warriors already did this with debuffs and DK's had it with the prototype of active mitigation. Stop painting the issue into its extremes, it's not helpful to the debate. Tanks in WotLK didn't just "stand there and taunt off", certainly the decent ones didn't.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 06:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Nobody is argueing that there are not other ways to achieve the same results that vengeance have with less side effects. However if you look in current live version, simply removing vengeance would be god awful.
    I'm not suggesting Vengeance is simply removed in the middle of an expansion; largely for the same reason I don't think paladins should be hammered in the middle of a tier. It ain't worth the trade-off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yes, but also crit and haste is getting more value for monks, druids and paladins. As a paladin I very much like getting crit on some of my gear, since I know that the damage output from the T15 bosses is trivial, 5% dodge will not help me anything, 5% crit will make the boss die faster. So it is not only hit/expertise.
    I'm a huge supporter of DPS secondaries being on tanking gear, with avoidance going away. That said, I'm not aware of any difference that critical strike is going to make to your output, given that the percentage would remain negligible unless you really went for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    While vengeance directly does not contribute anything to any of these categories, it still does.
    Kek.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    First off, seeing yourself competeting with the dps on the damage meter is more fun than seeing yourself compete with the shamans magma totem and the hunters wolf.
    Subjective, I'm afraid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    And that is what vengeance accomplishes there. It puts more focus into your dps rotation. If clicking a random button or clicking the correct button is a difference between 5k or 50k dps with or without vengeance, naturally you are gonna have to focus more with vengeance since the reward is bigger. Getting one more task to complete to perfection takes away focus from the other too, juggling all balls in the air at the same time makes it harder, increasing the skill cap and the fun (challenge) of the role.
    Resource generation is why I press the right buttons - said resources allow me to take less damage, which was the entire idea of active mitigation. Please don't lump Vengeance in with active mitigation so haphazardly, they were designed to fulfill two entirely different design intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Vengeance did nothing to actually change what you do, however it changes your priorities and tasks to complete, increasing both the challenge and the skill cap further differenting the bad tanks from the good tank.
    No, it doesn't. Sanctity of Battle promotes haste gearing because you generate Holy Power faster and, thus, get higher uptime on SotR. Vengeance plays no part in this skill cap you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You also have to remember why vengeance was implemented in the first place. DPSers dps increased faster than a tanks DPS due to dps stacking dps stats and tanks tank stats. Vengeance was a way for tanks AP to increase as tiers progressed and bosses started to hit harder so that threat would not become a huge issue in later tiers. Removing vengeance would need tanks to get a much increased baseline AP or threat modifier through the roof.
    This was the argument, yes. Yet, remarkably, it wasn't a problem in WotLK because of talents such as Bladed Armour and the paladin talent that converted stamina to spell power (forget the name, but it was nerfed for promoting stamina too heavily).

    In short, the developers said it was a problem... But it never actually was one.

    You were hoodwinked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So you would see a large decline in tanks, especially the good tanks and you got a style of playing that discourages tanks from getting better at their class.
    Having less tanks in the current game would not be good since we are already low on tanks. I really wish they would remove LFG to bring the community back a bit more.
    There were more tanks in WotLK than ever since, certainly in my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    So, you're asserting that everyone who is rolling a tank is doing so under the sneaky premise of trolling traditional DPS classes by using vengeance? That's a pretty hefty conspiracy theory you've got. You know a bad tank who taunts on cooldown, as I'm sure we all do. They were around in Vanilla, BC, and every expansion since. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion at all? Are you seriously suggesting that removing vengeance (or any mechanic, for that matter) will inherently make that role/class/spec's playerbase better?
    I never made any such assertion. Though, I suppose it's easier to straw man what I'm saying rather than doing as I've asked; namely, giving me a legitimate reason for Vengeance to be in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Well, my friend, you must have been the first tank ever to do damage. Allow us all to wait in line for autographs.
    Ah, I see. When someone calls you on your gibberish, we turn to sarcasm and mockery. You'll be pleased to know that I've seen it all before and remain unimpressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Nobody (myself included) is arguing that vengeance is some magic panacea. It is a means to an end for scaling of abilities that allow for easy tuning in both PVE and PVP, which has a side effect of damage. Stop trying to make mountains out of molehills with comments that put the words "vengeance" and "damage" in the same sentence.
    I've already listed several reasons why Vengeance is a problem, please read my previous posts. If you want a serious debate, stop lazily glossing over what's being written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You're mentioning abilities in a vacuum across various expansions, and following it up with a "you didn't think it was hard so you're wrong" as if it makes it gospel.
    No, I'm mentioning the ability list from WotLK which was the expansion prior to the nonsense of Vengeance. Seriously, are you bothering to read what I've written, or are you just looking for an argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Sure, we can look at original shield block and shield spec and say that "well I had to hit this button every 6 seconds, so it was really active!". Ok, you may call that active, but everyone else calls it tedious, monotonous, and boring. Just because something is required in repetition doesn't make it skillful. I'm not arguing that Paladin or DK or Druid is any harder, because it's not.
    How often are you hitting SotR? Answers on a postcard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    No, vengeance itself does not provide any of those. Vengeance DOES provide: tunable real-time scaling of AM abilities, an element of fun to the user, and an avenue for skillcap once content is no longer fully threatening (by allowing tanks to provide meaningful damage). Avoidance gearing is really only a "thing" for 2 classes anymore, which consequently are the ones that do not scale with "offensive" secondaries. I made no mention of how vengeance affects these classes in my post ((though I have prior), merely that the "fun" element I was referring to is largely due to the departure from reliance on avoidance/meatshield gearing.
    All of which can be provided without Vengeance.

    Next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    SoB is a great example of how to make tanking more fun and visceral. It has a high, perhaps TOO high interaction with vengeance, but it is a great method to emulate if the dev's choose to have DK/warrior follow suit for stat scaling. I'd like to see veng max values cut across the board, to prevent scaling disasters like we are seeing/will see.
    I am in complete agreement; out of all the tanking spec revamp tweaks, Sanctity of Battle was (IMHO) the most successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    And yes, we've already established that AM can work outside of veng, but thanks for the reminder I guess?
    You were the one arguing that Vengeance had something to do with active mitigation.

    You're welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    We also made do without various other classes, abilities, mechanics, and a plethora of other things since the dark ages. If you want to go back to WLK and stand in Dalaran shouting how great everything is, you can check out the ATR.
    If you want to stand in Orgrimmar/Stormwind and extol the virtues of Vengeance, come up with an objective argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Read it how you like, but I stand by the statement that if you cannot see why vengeance is implemented with the current tank AM systems if for no other reason that PVP balance, I don't know how any other, more specific examples will make a difference.
    How overpowered were Blood DK's in Wrath? Remind me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Measurements are only as good as the tools used to take them. But hey, I forgot your opinion was somehow more valid and also factual.
    No, just logical and intentionally keeping an eye on context and objectivity. Something yourself and the "DAMAGE IS FUN!" brigade are conveniently forgetting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    If tank swaps are frustrating, you need better tanks. Not sure how you plan to make mastery plug these "awkward gaps" but I'd love to hear your suggestions.
    Better tanks than you have made complaints about how taunt swaps work. As for mastery plugging awkward gaps, look at it this way; how did the developers fix the problem of block tanks going into Cataclysm? It was simple - they used percentages. There's absolutely no reason things like Shield Barrier can't be given percentage values that fluctuate with mastery.

    None.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    So sayeth....some disgruntled poster on a forum.
    Is that really all you've got to debate with? I'd erstwhile thought more of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Look, the burden of proof is on you to show why it's broken and so far all you've done is prance around like your opinion about what is hard, or skillful, or fair is somehow more correct or accurate than anyone else's, specifically Blizzard's. I'll be the first to say they're not batting 1000 on balance, but I'm inclined to believe their tools and data sets far more than one wildly fanatical and clearly emotionally invested poster. You have yet to show any examples of how to "fix" what you deem as "broken", or even why its "broken" in the first place to the point of needing scrapped.
    Please read my posts again. It's one thing to misunderstand what I've written, it's another to completely ignore it and spend your subsequent posts throwing insulting dispersions at me because you can't answer the question. There are multiple reasons, both in my musings here and elsewhere, as to why Vengeance needs kicking to the curb.

    All I said, at the start of this silly intercession, was that I'd yet to see a single objective argument for the introduction of Vengeance.

    Key word: introduction.

    Why did Blizzard bring it in?

    That puts the burden of proof at their doorstep, because they were trying to fix a problem nobody had actually experienced. They abjectly failed to do so, and you're now crying because I didn't just swallow the casual commentary that went with the introduction of a mechanic that wasn't necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I look forward to hearing any suggestions on how to actually determine the "problem" as well as formulate any answer that does not consist of "it's easy to do, just move around mastery". If you can manage to respond without getting so emotional that you randomly quote replies and address issues in response that aren't even in the original comment, perhaps we can get somewhere.
    And we round out with another plea for me to repeat myself, and just another veiled insult thrown on the top.

    Nicely done.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Stuff
    Wholeheartedly agreed. It feels stupid to have tanks top dps on the majority of fights. It feels stupider to bring multiple tanks to a single tank fight because bringing a second tank will add more control, damage, and healing than taking a dps class will.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Blizzard has explicitly said they didn't want to copy-paste Death Strike. How would you provide values for abilities like SBar/FR/SoI/WoG/Expel Harm/etc, making them scale depending on the encounter, without relying on:
    - damage taken over the last X seconds
    - vengeance? (which is pretty much the delayed version of damage taken anyway)

    I'm genuinely curious.
    Why not make them run off of how much damage you did in the past 10 seconds? Lets say instead of doing 200k dps with 100k vengeance, and your sbar is absorbing 200k damage per pop, they nerf/remove vengeance so that you're only doing 100k dps, but when you press sbar, you absorb a quarter of the amount of damage you did over the last 10 seconds = 250k barrier. Actually, upon further thought, it should scale quadratically with the damage that you do, so more like damage done over the last 10 seconds squared, divided by 500k, or thereabouts.

    Makes damage meaningful and still scales with gear.

    If it results in tank damage being too low (which I doubt), we can just bump base damage and increase Battle Exhaustion's pvp effect to make tanks do 50% damage as well, or whatever.

    I'm all for having tanks be competitive with DPS, doing meaningful amounts of damage, but I don't think vengeance is the way to do it. On one hand, you can have a low vengeance fight like Megaera where you are just another melee dps, versus Ra-den where (if single tanked) we do more damage than any DPS can hope to achieve before the next expansion. The occasional Ra-den is fine, just like Jin'rokh is really nice for rogues or Durumu for ele shaman, but when tanks are untouchable as top damage for over half the fights in a tier and still competitive for all the others, then it's sort of like wtf.


    My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
    Agreed, but it feels somewhat counterproductive to take more damage just so you can deal more/meet the dps check easier. My partner tank and I do it all the time, but I'll be the first to admit it gets us killed far more often than if we played "properly." It doesn't help that vengeance doesn't actually work the way it's advertised (based only off the unmitigated swing of the boss): If you /sit before a swing, you get more vengeance than if you were to take it normally. If you zen med a decapitate you get twice as much vengeance compared to if you just guarded through it. If you have a damage taken increased debuff, you get more vengeance. Some aoes (Lei Shen's discharge) ignore vengeance and doesn't update it, while Ra-Den's phase 2 aoe does. There's a whole host of buggy and stupid mechanics associated with vengeance.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-05-15 at 06:42 PM.

  18. #478
    Running with Mione on this, since I don't really want to go back in and re-re-quote everything again. Plus he has some good sentiments that echo my points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For PvP. You cite Blood DKs (who were indeed mostly useless) but conveniently forget prot paladins (as both healers or DPS) and prot warriors, who both were retardedly OP in their respective seasons. Blood DKs would have been good as well if they had the same utility as other tanks.
    This is the biggest, most obvious reason for vengeance as a tuning knob.**

    For helping shitty geared tanks to hold threat in 5-mans. You can't have LFR/LFD and the basics of tanking being hard to accomplish at the same time. With LFR/LFD, any moron that plays his class for the first time needs to be able to hold threat easily.
    While I lament the fact that the player base has devolved to needing training wheels in the form on vengeance to prop up poor play, even WITH a huge passive threat modifier, the fact is that the majority of the audience (and revenue source) needs these tools to function. I don't think it's good, and dont support it for this purpose, but there is not really anything else you CAN have, short of just buffing threat to the point that auto-attacks hold aggro. This is why I'd like to see logarithmic scaling of vengeance, with a quick ramp up and a low ceiling, to keep numbers fine for "casual" content without creating huge disparities and balance nightmares at heroic/progression levels.

    For fun. You might say it's subjective to compete for higher DPS, but I call bullshit. The LK model had tanks doing kay-ish damage (resulting in PvP issues@above), but no-one wants to go back to BC levels where your abilities do nothing at all and you just spam debuffs that do more threat than your actual damage. The MoP model has issues as well (tanks do absurd amounts of damage), but that's not just Vengeance, as DKs and Warriors are not guilty of this despite it.
    While fun is subjective, I think that *most* everyone will agree that tangible or visceral rewards are fun. Fun doesn't have to be topping meters (and I agree that we shouldn't be that high unless a gimmick like Alys), but certainly something more meaningful than spamming sunder armor can be accomplished.

    And finally, the MoP version allows for a higher skillcap. Your tanking philosophy might be to achieve the least damage taken possible, personally as a tank I've never had that goal - ever. My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
    Care to admit it or not, this is truth. It simply, mechanically and logically stands to reason that if you can and do survive the encounter, keep the boss in the right place, and assist with utility as the class is able, all that you can do to increase you value to the raid is to increase your throughput. Now, if you have tank A, who has perfect boss placement, CD usage, and raid utility but does 50k DPS, and tank B who is spiky as hell, gets melee cleaved or OOR, and does 150k DPS, we can all agree that tank A is the better choice. The real issue comes when you have 2 tank A's, but one doing more damage than the other. Ceteris paribus, the higher dps tank is the "better" tank, simply because he does more of one thing, while doing the same of the rest. That skill cap is just now more pronounced with Veng. If this was LK, you'd see a much smaller delta between a good and great tank, simply because of the scaling. Sometimes, it could be so small as to not be noticed; not being noticed, when busting your ass, is a great way to feel unrewarded. Now, do we need a HUGE delta? Nope. And that's why I've suggested the changes above to ramp-up and ceiling of vengeance, to preserve the skill cap while keeping numbers sane.

    Blizzard has explicitly said they didn't want to copy-paste Death Strike. How would you provide values for abilities like SBar/FR/SoI/WoG/Expel Harm/etc, making them scale depending on the encounter, without relying on:
    - damage taken over the last X seconds
    - vengeance? (which is pretty much the delayed version of damage taken anyway)

    I'm genuinely curious.
    This is what I was trying to ask, but as it seems that Vell and I have established a vitriolic rapport, I can understand that I likely won't get a reply. But, I still would be curious if there is a better, easier or more elegant solution than what we have in place.

    **Edit: I will note that with the 5.3 changes to FC's in RBGs, Blizz may be trying to finally kill off the tank spec in PVP period. They've already said basically that "if tanks enjoy PVP, nobody else does". You've got 3 options: Survival, Control, Damage. Pick 2. Tanks, prior to veng changes/removal had all 3. Tanks in LK also had all 3 (at varying times). If they remove tanks period, the game will surely continue, but until then I still assert that vengeance serves as a tuning knob for their "balance".
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-15 at 07:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  19. #479
    Deleted
    Why did a "nerf paladins omg" thread turn into a "nerf vengeance omg i cant outdps my tank" thread?

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Why did a "nerf paladins omg" thread turn into a "nerf vengeance omg i cant outdps my tank" thread?
    A large portion of the reasons why paladins feel so overpowered is directly due to vengeance. Why address the symptoms when you can treat the disease?

    For what it's worth, I tank and I feel vengeance is beyond stupid.

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