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  1. #481
    Epic! rawhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    I've got a rather romantic opinion of what a tank ought to be.
    I need a hero
    I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night
    He's gotta be strong, he's gotta be fast
    And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
    I need a hero
    I'm holding out for a hero 'til the morning light
    He's gotta be sure, he's gotta be soon
    And he's gotta be larger than life, larger than life
    Keeping it url since 1864.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    If it was abundantly clear that tanks are not in a raid to do DPS, they might start thinking about their more legitimate (traditional?) role.
    why should something be made clear taht just isn't true now? it might have been true last year in cata but it sure as hell isn't now
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    So do I, and I did so long before the advent of Vengeance. The problem is that a lot of tanks in half-decent guilds are now foregoing their defensive role so that they can pump out more DPS.
    knowing how to keep up your survivability so you don't become a liability or a strain on your healers and how at the same time push out as much dps as possible takes imho a lot more skill than just knowing where to stand, when to push a def CD and at how many stacks to taunt, especially since you still need to know how to do all of this

  3. #483
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    why should something be made clear taht just isn't true now? it might have been true last year in cata but it sure as hell isn't now
    What, seriously? I've already answered this. Please, please read the post you're quoting in its entirety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    knowing how to keep up your survivability so you don't become a liability or a strain on your healers and how at the same time push out as much dps as possible takes imho a lot more skill than just knowing where to stand, when to push a def CD and at how many stacks to taunt, especially since you still need to know how to do all of this
    Yet in Cataclysm, warriors already did this with debuffs and DK's had it with the prototype of active mitigation. Stop painting the issue into its extremes, it's not helpful to the debate. Tanks in WotLK didn't just "stand there and taunt off", certainly the decent ones didn't.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 06:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Nobody is argueing that there are not other ways to achieve the same results that vengeance have with less side effects. However if you look in current live version, simply removing vengeance would be god awful.
    I'm not suggesting Vengeance is simply removed in the middle of an expansion; largely for the same reason I don't think paladins should be hammered in the middle of a tier. It ain't worth the trade-off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yes, but also crit and haste is getting more value for monks, druids and paladins. As a paladin I very much like getting crit on some of my gear, since I know that the damage output from the T15 bosses is trivial, 5% dodge will not help me anything, 5% crit will make the boss die faster. So it is not only hit/expertise.
    I'm a huge supporter of DPS secondaries being on tanking gear, with avoidance going away. That said, I'm not aware of any difference that critical strike is going to make to your output, given that the percentage would remain negligible unless you really went for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    While vengeance directly does not contribute anything to any of these categories, it still does.
    Kek.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    First off, seeing yourself competeting with the dps on the damage meter is more fun than seeing yourself compete with the shamans magma totem and the hunters wolf.
    Subjective, I'm afraid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    And that is what vengeance accomplishes there. It puts more focus into your dps rotation. If clicking a random button or clicking the correct button is a difference between 5k or 50k dps with or without vengeance, naturally you are gonna have to focus more with vengeance since the reward is bigger. Getting one more task to complete to perfection takes away focus from the other too, juggling all balls in the air at the same time makes it harder, increasing the skill cap and the fun (challenge) of the role.
    Resource generation is why I press the right buttons - said resources allow me to take less damage, which was the entire idea of active mitigation. Please don't lump Vengeance in with active mitigation so haphazardly, they were designed to fulfill two entirely different design intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Vengeance did nothing to actually change what you do, however it changes your priorities and tasks to complete, increasing both the challenge and the skill cap further differenting the bad tanks from the good tank.
    No, it doesn't. Sanctity of Battle promotes haste gearing because you generate Holy Power faster and, thus, get higher uptime on SotR. Vengeance plays no part in this skill cap you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You also have to remember why vengeance was implemented in the first place. DPSers dps increased faster than a tanks DPS due to dps stacking dps stats and tanks tank stats. Vengeance was a way for tanks AP to increase as tiers progressed and bosses started to hit harder so that threat would not become a huge issue in later tiers. Removing vengeance would need tanks to get a much increased baseline AP or threat modifier through the roof.
    This was the argument, yes. Yet, remarkably, it wasn't a problem in WotLK because of talents such as Bladed Armour and the paladin talent that converted stamina to spell power (forget the name, but it was nerfed for promoting stamina too heavily).

    In short, the developers said it was a problem... But it never actually was one.

    You were hoodwinked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So you would see a large decline in tanks, especially the good tanks and you got a style of playing that discourages tanks from getting better at their class.
    Having less tanks in the current game would not be good since we are already low on tanks. I really wish they would remove LFG to bring the community back a bit more.
    There were more tanks in WotLK than ever since, certainly in my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    So, you're asserting that everyone who is rolling a tank is doing so under the sneaky premise of trolling traditional DPS classes by using vengeance? That's a pretty hefty conspiracy theory you've got. You know a bad tank who taunts on cooldown, as I'm sure we all do. They were around in Vanilla, BC, and every expansion since. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion at all? Are you seriously suggesting that removing vengeance (or any mechanic, for that matter) will inherently make that role/class/spec's playerbase better?
    I never made any such assertion. Though, I suppose it's easier to straw man what I'm saying rather than doing as I've asked; namely, giving me a legitimate reason for Vengeance to be in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Well, my friend, you must have been the first tank ever to do damage. Allow us all to wait in line for autographs.
    Ah, I see. When someone calls you on your gibberish, we turn to sarcasm and mockery. You'll be pleased to know that I've seen it all before and remain unimpressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Nobody (myself included) is arguing that vengeance is some magic panacea. It is a means to an end for scaling of abilities that allow for easy tuning in both PVE and PVP, which has a side effect of damage. Stop trying to make mountains out of molehills with comments that put the words "vengeance" and "damage" in the same sentence.
    I've already listed several reasons why Vengeance is a problem, please read my previous posts. If you want a serious debate, stop lazily glossing over what's being written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You're mentioning abilities in a vacuum across various expansions, and following it up with a "you didn't think it was hard so you're wrong" as if it makes it gospel.
    No, I'm mentioning the ability list from WotLK which was the expansion prior to the nonsense of Vengeance. Seriously, are you bothering to read what I've written, or are you just looking for an argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Sure, we can look at original shield block and shield spec and say that "well I had to hit this button every 6 seconds, so it was really active!". Ok, you may call that active, but everyone else calls it tedious, monotonous, and boring. Just because something is required in repetition doesn't make it skillful. I'm not arguing that Paladin or DK or Druid is any harder, because it's not.
    How often are you hitting SotR? Answers on a postcard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    No, vengeance itself does not provide any of those. Vengeance DOES provide: tunable real-time scaling of AM abilities, an element of fun to the user, and an avenue for skillcap once content is no longer fully threatening (by allowing tanks to provide meaningful damage). Avoidance gearing is really only a "thing" for 2 classes anymore, which consequently are the ones that do not scale with "offensive" secondaries. I made no mention of how vengeance affects these classes in my post ((though I have prior), merely that the "fun" element I was referring to is largely due to the departure from reliance on avoidance/meatshield gearing.
    All of which can be provided without Vengeance.

    Next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    SoB is a great example of how to make tanking more fun and visceral. It has a high, perhaps TOO high interaction with vengeance, but it is a great method to emulate if the dev's choose to have DK/warrior follow suit for stat scaling. I'd like to see veng max values cut across the board, to prevent scaling disasters like we are seeing/will see.
    I am in complete agreement; out of all the tanking spec revamp tweaks, Sanctity of Battle was (IMHO) the most successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    And yes, we've already established that AM can work outside of veng, but thanks for the reminder I guess?
    You were the one arguing that Vengeance had something to do with active mitigation.

    You're welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    We also made do without various other classes, abilities, mechanics, and a plethora of other things since the dark ages. If you want to go back to WLK and stand in Dalaran shouting how great everything is, you can check out the ATR.
    If you want to stand in Orgrimmar/Stormwind and extol the virtues of Vengeance, come up with an objective argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Read it how you like, but I stand by the statement that if you cannot see why vengeance is implemented with the current tank AM systems if for no other reason that PVP balance, I don't know how any other, more specific examples will make a difference.
    How overpowered were Blood DK's in Wrath? Remind me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Measurements are only as good as the tools used to take them. But hey, I forgot your opinion was somehow more valid and also factual.
    No, just logical and intentionally keeping an eye on context and objectivity. Something yourself and the "DAMAGE IS FUN!" brigade are conveniently forgetting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    If tank swaps are frustrating, you need better tanks. Not sure how you plan to make mastery plug these "awkward gaps" but I'd love to hear your suggestions.
    Better tanks than you have made complaints about how taunt swaps work. As for mastery plugging awkward gaps, look at it this way; how did the developers fix the problem of block tanks going into Cataclysm? It was simple - they used percentages. There's absolutely no reason things like Shield Barrier can't be given percentage values that fluctuate with mastery.

    None.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    So sayeth....some disgruntled poster on a forum.
    Is that really all you've got to debate with? I'd erstwhile thought more of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Look, the burden of proof is on you to show why it's broken and so far all you've done is prance around like your opinion about what is hard, or skillful, or fair is somehow more correct or accurate than anyone else's, specifically Blizzard's. I'll be the first to say they're not batting 1000 on balance, but I'm inclined to believe their tools and data sets far more than one wildly fanatical and clearly emotionally invested poster. You have yet to show any examples of how to "fix" what you deem as "broken", or even why its "broken" in the first place to the point of needing scrapped.
    Please read my posts again. It's one thing to misunderstand what I've written, it's another to completely ignore it and spend your subsequent posts throwing insulting dispersions at me because you can't answer the question. There are multiple reasons, both in my musings here and elsewhere, as to why Vengeance needs kicking to the curb.

    All I said, at the start of this silly intercession, was that I'd yet to see a single objective argument for the introduction of Vengeance.

    Key word: introduction.

    Why did Blizzard bring it in?

    That puts the burden of proof at their doorstep, because they were trying to fix a problem nobody had actually experienced. They abjectly failed to do so, and you're now crying because I didn't just swallow the casual commentary that went with the introduction of a mechanic that wasn't necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I look forward to hearing any suggestions on how to actually determine the "problem" as well as formulate any answer that does not consist of "it's easy to do, just move around mastery". If you can manage to respond without getting so emotional that you randomly quote replies and address issues in response that aren't even in the original comment, perhaps we can get somewhere.
    And we round out with another plea for me to repeat myself, and just another veiled insult thrown on the top.

    Nicely done.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Stuff
    Wholeheartedly agreed. It feels stupid to have tanks top dps on the majority of fights. It feels stupider to bring multiple tanks to a single tank fight because bringing a second tank will add more control, damage, and healing than taking a dps class will.

  5. #485
    Why did Blizzard bring it in?
    For PvP. You cite Blood DKs (who were indeed mostly useless) but conveniently forget prot paladins (as both healers or DPS) and prot warriors, who both were retardedly OP in their respective seasons. Blood DKs would have been good as well if they had the same utility as other tanks.
    For helping shitty geared tanks to hold threat in 5-mans. You can't have LFR/LFD and the basics of tanking being hard to accomplish at the same time. With LFR/LFD, any moron that plays his class for the first time needs to be able to hold threat easily.
    For fun. You might say it's subjective to compete for higher DPS, but I call bullshit. The LK model had tanks doing kay-ish damage (resulting in PvP issues@above), but no-one wants to go back to BC levels where your abilities do nothing at all and you just spam debuffs that do more threat than your actual damage. The MoP model has issues as well (tanks do absurd amounts of damage), but that's not just Vengeance, as DKs and Warriors are not guilty of this despite it.
    And finally, the MoP version allows for a higher skillcap. Your tanking philosophy might be to achieve the least damage taken possible, personally as a tank I've never had that goal - ever. My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.

    Also:

    All of which can be provided without Vengeance.

    Next.
    Blizzard has explicitly said they didn't want to copy-paste Death Strike. How would you provide values for abilities like SBar/FR/SoI/WoG/Expel Harm/etc, making them scale depending on the encounter, without relying on:
    - damage taken over the last X seconds
    - vengeance? (which is pretty much the delayed version of damage taken anyway)

    I'm genuinely curious.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-05-15 at 06:13 PM.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Blizzard has explicitly said they didn't want to copy-paste Death Strike. How would you provide values for abilities like SBar/FR/SoI/WoG/Expel Harm/etc, making them scale depending on the encounter, without relying on:
    - damage taken over the last X seconds
    - vengeance? (which is pretty much the delayed version of damage taken anyway)

    I'm genuinely curious.
    Why not make them run off of how much damage you did in the past 10 seconds? Lets say instead of doing 200k dps with 100k vengeance, and your sbar is absorbing 200k damage per pop, they nerf/remove vengeance so that you're only doing 100k dps, but when you press sbar, you absorb a quarter of the amount of damage you did over the last 10 seconds = 250k barrier. Actually, upon further thought, it should scale quadratically with the damage that you do, so more like damage done over the last 10 seconds squared, divided by 500k, or thereabouts.

    Makes damage meaningful and still scales with gear.

    If it results in tank damage being too low (which I doubt), we can just bump base damage and increase Battle Exhaustion's pvp effect to make tanks do 50% damage as well, or whatever.

    I'm all for having tanks be competitive with DPS, doing meaningful amounts of damage, but I don't think vengeance is the way to do it. On one hand, you can have a low vengeance fight like Megaera where you are just another melee dps, versus Ra-den where (if single tanked) we do more damage than any DPS can hope to achieve before the next expansion. The occasional Ra-den is fine, just like Jin'rokh is really nice for rogues or Durumu for ele shaman, but when tanks are untouchable as top damage for over half the fights in a tier and still competitive for all the others, then it's sort of like wtf.


    My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
    Agreed, but it feels somewhat counterproductive to take more damage just so you can deal more/meet the dps check easier. My partner tank and I do it all the time, but I'll be the first to admit it gets us killed far more often than if we played "properly." It doesn't help that vengeance doesn't actually work the way it's advertised (based only off the unmitigated swing of the boss): If you /sit before a swing, you get more vengeance than if you were to take it normally. If you zen med a decapitate you get twice as much vengeance compared to if you just guarded through it. If you have a damage taken increased debuff, you get more vengeance. Some aoes (Lei Shen's discharge) ignore vengeance and doesn't update it, while Ra-Den's phase 2 aoe does. There's a whole host of buggy and stupid mechanics associated with vengeance.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-05-15 at 06:42 PM.

  7. #487
    Running with Mione on this, since I don't really want to go back in and re-re-quote everything again. Plus he has some good sentiments that echo my points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For PvP. You cite Blood DKs (who were indeed mostly useless) but conveniently forget prot paladins (as both healers or DPS) and prot warriors, who both were retardedly OP in their respective seasons. Blood DKs would have been good as well if they had the same utility as other tanks.
    This is the biggest, most obvious reason for vengeance as a tuning knob.**

    For helping shitty geared tanks to hold threat in 5-mans. You can't have LFR/LFD and the basics of tanking being hard to accomplish at the same time. With LFR/LFD, any moron that plays his class for the first time needs to be able to hold threat easily.
    While I lament the fact that the player base has devolved to needing training wheels in the form on vengeance to prop up poor play, even WITH a huge passive threat modifier, the fact is that the majority of the audience (and revenue source) needs these tools to function. I don't think it's good, and dont support it for this purpose, but there is not really anything else you CAN have, short of just buffing threat to the point that auto-attacks hold aggro. This is why I'd like to see logarithmic scaling of vengeance, with a quick ramp up and a low ceiling, to keep numbers fine for "casual" content without creating huge disparities and balance nightmares at heroic/progression levels.

    For fun. You might say it's subjective to compete for higher DPS, but I call bullshit. The LK model had tanks doing kay-ish damage (resulting in PvP issues@above), but no-one wants to go back to BC levels where your abilities do nothing at all and you just spam debuffs that do more threat than your actual damage. The MoP model has issues as well (tanks do absurd amounts of damage), but that's not just Vengeance, as DKs and Warriors are not guilty of this despite it.
    While fun is subjective, I think that *most* everyone will agree that tangible or visceral rewards are fun. Fun doesn't have to be topping meters (and I agree that we shouldn't be that high unless a gimmick like Alys), but certainly something more meaningful than spamming sunder armor can be accomplished.

    And finally, the MoP version allows for a higher skillcap. Your tanking philosophy might be to achieve the least damage taken possible, personally as a tank I've never had that goal - ever. My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
    Care to admit it or not, this is truth. It simply, mechanically and logically stands to reason that if you can and do survive the encounter, keep the boss in the right place, and assist with utility as the class is able, all that you can do to increase you value to the raid is to increase your throughput. Now, if you have tank A, who has perfect boss placement, CD usage, and raid utility but does 50k DPS, and tank B who is spiky as hell, gets melee cleaved or OOR, and does 150k DPS, we can all agree that tank A is the better choice. The real issue comes when you have 2 tank A's, but one doing more damage than the other. Ceteris paribus, the higher dps tank is the "better" tank, simply because he does more of one thing, while doing the same of the rest. That skill cap is just now more pronounced with Veng. If this was LK, you'd see a much smaller delta between a good and great tank, simply because of the scaling. Sometimes, it could be so small as to not be noticed; not being noticed, when busting your ass, is a great way to feel unrewarded. Now, do we need a HUGE delta? Nope. And that's why I've suggested the changes above to ramp-up and ceiling of vengeance, to preserve the skill cap while keeping numbers sane.

    Blizzard has explicitly said they didn't want to copy-paste Death Strike. How would you provide values for abilities like SBar/FR/SoI/WoG/Expel Harm/etc, making them scale depending on the encounter, without relying on:
    - damage taken over the last X seconds
    - vengeance? (which is pretty much the delayed version of damage taken anyway)

    I'm genuinely curious.
    This is what I was trying to ask, but as it seems that Vell and I have established a vitriolic rapport, I can understand that I likely won't get a reply. But, I still would be curious if there is a better, easier or more elegant solution than what we have in place.

    **Edit: I will note that with the 5.3 changes to FC's in RBGs, Blizz may be trying to finally kill off the tank spec in PVP period. They've already said basically that "if tanks enjoy PVP, nobody else does". You've got 3 options: Survival, Control, Damage. Pick 2. Tanks, prior to veng changes/removal had all 3. Tanks in LK also had all 3 (at varying times). If they remove tanks period, the game will surely continue, but until then I still assert that vengeance serves as a tuning knob for their "balance".
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-15 at 07:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  8. #488
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Why did a "nerf paladins omg" thread turn into a "nerf vengeance omg i cant outdps my tank" thread?


  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Why did a "nerf paladins omg" thread turn into a "nerf vengeance omg i cant outdps my tank" thread?
    A large portion of the reasons why paladins feel so overpowered is directly due to vengeance. Why address the symptoms when you can treat the disease?

    For what it's worth, I tank and I feel vengeance is beyond stupid.

  10. #490
    Blademaster Prokk's Avatar
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    This thread should've been a Nerf Vengeance thread. That is where the problem lies, not the class of tank. The mechanic is broken/overpowered and that's why tanks are sometimes at the top of damage meters. Have you seen DPS rankings lately for 25 Heroic? More monks in the top 20 than paladins... I guess monks now need a nerf huh...

    "I am Rei Shen, prease!!"

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Prokk View Post
    This thread should've been a Nerf Vengeance thread. That is where the problem lies, not the class of tank. The mechanic is broken/overpowered and that's why tanks are sometimes at the top of damage meters. Have you seen DPS rankings lately for 25 Heroic? More monks in the top 20 than paladins... I guess monks now need a nerf huh...
    Er... of course they do. They are even bigger offenders. That, or balance. Don't care if via nerfs or buffs. The fun of a class is on the mechanics, not on being lolop. As long as the other lolopness don't makes you doubt you should play the class you are on, only mechanics make or break the fun factor.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-05-15 at 09:12 PM.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Agreed, but it feels somewhat counterproductive to take more damage just so you can deal more/meet the dps check easier. My partner tank and I do it all the time, but I'll be the first to admit it gets us killed far more often than if we played "properly." It doesn't help that vengeance doesn't actually work the way it's advertised (based only off the unmitigated swing of the boss): If you /sit before a swing, you get more vengeance than if you were to take it normally. If you zen med a decapitate you get twice as much vengeance compared to if you just guarded through it. If you have a damage taken increased debuff, you get more vengeance. Some aoes (Lei Shen's discharge) ignore vengeance and doesn't update it, while Ra-Den's phase 2 aoe does. There's a whole host of buggy and stupid mechanics associated with vengeance.
    Another problem is Vengeance doesn't update every second; it only updates when you take damage. So if you Zen Med a Decapitate and don't take any damage for the next 20 seconds, you get to keep the full Vengeance for 20 seconds. Instead it should work like Stagger, where the current value is updated every second and your current vengeance is the average of the total damage you took over the past 20 seconds.

    Sacred Shield is big offender for Vengeance abuse. It should not snapshot at all, and each tick should be based on the caster's current Attack Power. It's really stupid to be able to put a really strong 30-second absorb on your co-tank after a taunt-swap.

    There really is no way to completely balance tank classes without completely homogenizing every class. Compare a Brewmaster to a Blood DK for Ra-den Fatal Strike. The Blood DK literally has a window that is the size of Ra-den's swing timer to Death Strike so he doesn't die, while a Brewmaster completely ignores Fatal Strike because Shuffle uptime is 100%. In fact I don't think I've seen any Ra-den kills that used a Blood DK main tank.

  13. #493
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Vengeance should be toned down, to cap at about 25-40% of what it does now (so, 25-40% of max HP, or ~200-300k AP). This keeps absorb/heal values in the realm of sanity, keeps tank damage meaningful without being all consuming, and still allows for a modicum of skill required to min-max raid effectiveness as a tank.
    The reason why Blizzard didn't want to do this in the first place (put a meaningful, reachable cap in vengeance) was that it would then turn Stamina into a DPS stat, if I remember. I don't actually think people were stacking Stamina to begin with to increase vengeance before, but in any case, if it means Stamina becomes a new DPS stat rather than haste, perhaps this is better for everyone?

    Either way, I don't actually agree with "nerfing" vengeance so much as re-working it next expansion entirely.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For PvP. You cite Blood DKs (who were indeed mostly useless) but conveniently forget prot paladins (as both healers or DPS) and prot warriors, who both were retardedly OP in their respective seasons.
    At least in the case of prot wars I don't think it was really related to their damage capabilities. Granted a full arp geared reck burst was insane the way bigger issue was the impossibility to peel a prot plus the ridiculous utility via stuns, silence and kick against casters comps who were dominating the scene the later seasons hard which also enabled them to wear really low resilience without worrying too much so most were even easily wearing the 2p t10 for additional burst. Also how shields worked back in the days certainly was helpful against the occasional melee you would meet. The warbringer fix + slight damage nerfs and the removal of revenge the proc stun fixed that problem rather fast as I don't think that atc was way superior to phd later on.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-05-15 at 10:25 PM.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    There really is no way to completely balance tank classes without completely homogenizing every class. Compare a Brewmaster to a Blood DK for Ra-den Fatal Strike. The Blood DK literally has a window that is the size of Ra-den's swing timer to Death Strike so he doesn't die, while a Brewmaster completely ignores Fatal Strike because Shuffle uptime is 100%. In fact I don't think I've seen any Ra-den kills that used a Blood DK main tank.
    That ability seems so poorly thought out, there's no way anyone decent tested it with all tanks and came to the conclusion that a 99% uptime buff is equal to having a fucking blood shield.

  16. #496
    Epic! schwank05's Avatar
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    Paladins other than Ret never get Nerfed, they only get buffed because everyone loves them because they are OP.

  17. #497
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Paladins other than Ret never get Nerfed, they only get buffed because everyone loves them because they are OP.
    Which is why this coming patch the Rets are getting buffed, and the non-rets are getting nerfed...................

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Which is why this coming patch the Rets are getting buffed, and the non-rets are getting nerfed...................
    You there. Keep your logic out of this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  19. #499
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Wholeheartedly agreed. It feels stupid to have tanks top dps on the majority of fights. It feels stupider to bring multiple tanks to a single tank fight because bringing a second tank will add more control, damage, and healing than taking a dps class will.
    I'm glad to see someone agree with me, but I wouldn't cite this argument because it's totally subjective. I'm also pretty sure that bringing an extra tank wouldn't result in more RDPS, unless you really fudged a mechanic somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For PvP.
    When Vengeance was introduced, can you link to me a source that states it was done for PvP? It's an honest request.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For helping shitty geared tanks to hold threat in 5-mans. You can't have LFR/LFD and the basics of tanking being hard to accomplish at the same time. With LFR/LFD, any moron that plays his class for the first time needs to be able to hold threat easily.
    Two problems with this; first, MoP ditched the challenging five-man content in the queue. Secondly, they buffed the threat generation of all the tanking stances to accommodate. Vengeance is not required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For fun. You might say it's subjective to compete for higher DPS, but I call bullshit.
    You call bullshit? My opinion differs from yours. Oops. I think someone needs to quickly check what "subjective" means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    The LK model had tanks doing kay-ish damage (resulting in PvP issues@above), but no-one wants to go back to BC levels where your abilities do nothing at all and you just spam debuffs that do more threat than your actual damage. The MoP model has issues as well (tanks do absurd amounts of damage), but that's not just Vengeance, as DKs and Warriors are not guilty of this despite it.
    I'm a huge fan of the current model that prioritizes hit, expertise and secondary DPS stats (with the omissions you mention). I think that's a far more sophisticated way of bringing tank damage up to "meaningful" levels without any need for Vengeance. I'm also going to say that's something of a different debate, but buffing damage via a different gearing/playing strategy is absolutely fun, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    And finally, the MoP version allows for a higher skillcap. Your tanking philosophy might be to achieve the least damage taken possible, personally as a tank I've never had that goal - ever. My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
    I'm not playing in a particularly good guild these days, which is why I prioritize defence. Yet, despite not cheesing mechanics to get more Vengeance, I'm still ranked multiple times in the current tier because I prioritize resource generation for defensive purposes which, if you recall, was one of the design intentions of the active mitigation system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Blizzard has explicitly said they didn't want to copy-paste Death Strike. How would you provide values for abilities like SBar/FR/SoI/WoG/Expel Harm/etc, making them scale depending on the encounter, without relying on:
    - damage taken over the last X seconds
    - vengeance? (which is pretty much the delayed version of damage taken anyway)

    I'm genuinely curious.
    First of all, they don't have to scale depending on the encounter; you could argue that it's a problem doing that, actually, and we got through two full expansions, plus the original game, without requiring it. But, I do like this idea:

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Why not make them run off of how much damage you did in the past 10 seconds? Lets say instead of doing 200k dps with 100k vengeance, and your sbar is absorbing 200k damage per pop, they nerf/remove vengeance so that you're only doing 100k dps, but when you press sbar, you absorb a quarter of the amount of damage you did over the last 10 seconds = 250k barrier. Actually, upon further thought, it should scale quadratically with the damage that you do, so more like damage done over the last 10 seconds squared, divided by 500k, or thereabouts.

    Makes damage meaningful and still scales with gear.
    I'm not sure it works exactly as presented, but I like the idea. The main reason I don't think it'll happen is because it would require Blizzard to properly balance tank DPS which, at the moment, they're not doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    If it results in tank damage being too low (which I doubt), we can just bump base damage and increase Battle Exhaustion's pvp effect to make tanks do 50% damage as well, or whatever.
    Yep. The game simply doesn't need Vengeance.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Agreed, but it feels somewhat counterproductive to take more damage just so you can deal more/meet the dps check easier. My partner tank and I do it all the time, but I'll be the first to admit it gets us killed far more often than if we played "properly." It doesn't help that vengeance doesn't actually work the way it's advertised (based only off the unmitigated swing of the boss): If you /sit before a swing, you get more vengeance than if you were to take it normally. If you zen med a decapitate you get twice as much vengeance compared to if you just guarded through it. If you have a damage taken increased debuff, you get more vengeance. Some aoes (Lei Shen's discharge) ignore vengeance and doesn't update it, while Ra-Den's phase 2 aoe does. There's a whole host of buggy and stupid mechanics associated with vengeance.
    Maybe that's one of my biggests issue with Vengeance, other than what I've already cited. It's just not transparent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    While I lament the fact that the player base has devolved to needing training wheels in the form on vengeance to prop up poor play, even WITH a huge passive threat modifier, the fact is that the majority of the audience (and revenue source) needs these tools to function. I don't think it's good, and dont support it for this purpose, but there is not really anything else you CAN have, short of just buffing threat to the point that auto-attacks hold aggro. This is why I'd like to see logarithmic scaling of vengeance, with a quick ramp up and a low ceiling, to keep numbers fine for "casual" content without creating huge disparities and balance nightmares at heroic/progression levels.
    The problem is that the tuning "knob" you describe (fairly, I might add) is on the razor's edge of a razor's edge between working fine for 5-mans compared to 25-man heroic. Also, lets not forget, that easy 5-mans are now the norm, so lost aggro doesn't actually matter any more because nobody can really die from it. I suppose what I'm saying is "Blizzard found Vengeance didn't work, so found other solutions".

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    While fun is subjective, I think that *most* everyone will agree that tangible or visceral rewards are fun. Fun doesn't have to be topping meters (and I agree that we shouldn't be that high unless a gimmick like Alys), but certainly something more meaningful than spamming sunder armor can be accomplished.
    I would say that DPS secondary gearing is "fun" because it provides a more visceral feel to combat that has probably been lacking prior to MoP. I don't like referencing other threads, but you've brought this up a couple of times and I completely agree with you. All I ask is that the debate is not painted in its extremes, which is what you're doing here - I'm NOT arguing for Sunder spamming, not under any circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    It simply, mechanically and logically stands to reason that if you can and do survive the encounter, keep the boss in the right place, and assist with utility as the class is able, all that you can do to increase you value to the raid is to increase your throughput. Now, if you have tank A, who has perfect boss placement, CD usage, and raid utility but does 50k DPS, and tank B who is spiky as hell, gets melee cleaved or OOR, and does 150k DPS, we can all agree that tank A is the better choice. The real issue comes when you have 2 tank A's, but one doing more damage than the other. Ceteris paribus, the higher dps tank is the "better" tank, simply because he does more of one thing, while doing the same of the rest.
    I've not tanked anything remotely difficult on my paladin, but this is where warriors are pretty well designed (though more by accident if you ask me). Shield Slam pretty much does everything if you're a warrior. It's by far the hardest-hitting attack, but also provides the most resources which, in turn, fuel your defences better. What I'm saying is that the situation you describe can't happen, at least not as far as warriors are concerned. I'm ranked multiple times in the normal tier despite the fact I'm not trying to increase my DPS in any way, shape or form. Go through my logs if you don't believe me.

    Warriors who are doing the most damage (outside of cheesing Vengeance by taking critical strikes sitting down) are the ones who're mitigating the most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    That skill cap is just now more pronounced with Veng. If this was LK, you'd see a much smaller delta between a good and great tank, simply because of the scaling. Sometimes, it could be so small as to not be noticed; not being noticed, when busting your ass, is a great way to feel unrewarded. Now, do we need a HUGE delta? Nope. And that's why I've suggested the changes above to ramp-up and ceiling of vengeance, to preserve the skill cap while keeping numbers sane.
    I actually feel that it's harder to now tell the difference between a good and bad tank because the numbers fluctuate so wildly between encounters depending on who's doing what. Generally in WotLK, there was a certain expectation of damage from each class and you could form an opinion around that fact before going into the other parts of their logs. Now, depending on what a tank is doing, you can make almost no judgement on whether their damage is good, bad or indifferent.

    This is a personal opinion, though - I'm not presenting it as a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    This is what I was trying to ask, but as it seems that Vell and I have established a vitriolic rapport, I can understand that I likely won't get a reply. But, I still would be curious if there is a better, easier or more elegant solution than what we have in place.
    For my part in this argument, I want to apologise. There's no legitimate excuse for me to have behaved in the fashion I have, so I won't offer one.

    I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    **Edit: I will note that with the 5.3 changes to FC's in RBGs, Blizz may be trying to finally kill off the tank spec in PVP period. They've already said basically that "if tanks enjoy PVP, nobody else does". You've got 3 options: Survival, Control, Damage. Pick 2. Tanks, prior to veng changes/removal had all 3. Tanks in LK also had all 3 (at varying times). If they remove tanks period, the game will surely continue, but until then I still assert that vengeance serves as a tuning knob for their "balance".
    Again, similar to previous discussion points, Blizzard are actively having to find other solutions to issues that Vengeance isn't fixing or, worse, is exasperating. They're piling bandages on top of bandages instead of fixing the root cause of a problem, and they've been doing it ever since Vengeance was introduced.

    That, more than anything, tells you that it's not working.
    Last edited by Amulree; 2013-05-16 at 08:35 AM.

  20. #500
    The part of which is most fun still is the AM part. If they take away vengeance but still manage to scale selfhealmechanics so they are not totaly broken in pvp. Each tank should still try to max his dps, its not like tank dmg didnt matter in cata in 10m it did. Spine hc for example. It was just way easier taking less dmg than it is now, or not so idiotic like the druid shield was.

    Most of the players that cry protpala is op either dont have one(nor ret or holy), and think they will one shot every heroic if they had one.

    On aoe fights or singetank fights tanks will do more dps thats the point of taking only one tank so you can take another dps and the overall dps is higher. If you 1tank a fight but have to take another healer to compensate the extra dmg the tank takes cause he sucks doenst help you at all. On almost all the other fights dps are higher than tanks. I found that dropping a healer and taking another dps is sometimes easier than onetanking the fight.

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