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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Stuff
    Wholeheartedly agreed. It feels stupid to have tanks top dps on the majority of fights. It feels stupider to bring multiple tanks to a single tank fight because bringing a second tank will add more control, damage, and healing than taking a dps class will.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Blizzard has explicitly said they didn't want to copy-paste Death Strike. How would you provide values for abilities like SBar/FR/SoI/WoG/Expel Harm/etc, making them scale depending on the encounter, without relying on:
    - damage taken over the last X seconds
    - vengeance? (which is pretty much the delayed version of damage taken anyway)

    I'm genuinely curious.
    Why not make them run off of how much damage you did in the past 10 seconds? Lets say instead of doing 200k dps with 100k vengeance, and your sbar is absorbing 200k damage per pop, they nerf/remove vengeance so that you're only doing 100k dps, but when you press sbar, you absorb a quarter of the amount of damage you did over the last 10 seconds = 250k barrier. Actually, upon further thought, it should scale quadratically with the damage that you do, so more like damage done over the last 10 seconds squared, divided by 500k, or thereabouts.

    Makes damage meaningful and still scales with gear.

    If it results in tank damage being too low (which I doubt), we can just bump base damage and increase Battle Exhaustion's pvp effect to make tanks do 50% damage as well, or whatever.

    I'm all for having tanks be competitive with DPS, doing meaningful amounts of damage, but I don't think vengeance is the way to do it. On one hand, you can have a low vengeance fight like Megaera where you are just another melee dps, versus Ra-den where (if single tanked) we do more damage than any DPS can hope to achieve before the next expansion. The occasional Ra-den is fine, just like Jin'rokh is really nice for rogues or Durumu for ele shaman, but when tanks are untouchable as top damage for over half the fights in a tier and still competitive for all the others, then it's sort of like wtf.


    My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
    Agreed, but it feels somewhat counterproductive to take more damage just so you can deal more/meet the dps check easier. My partner tank and I do it all the time, but I'll be the first to admit it gets us killed far more often than if we played "properly." It doesn't help that vengeance doesn't actually work the way it's advertised (based only off the unmitigated swing of the boss): If you /sit before a swing, you get more vengeance than if you were to take it normally. If you zen med a decapitate you get twice as much vengeance compared to if you just guarded through it. If you have a damage taken increased debuff, you get more vengeance. Some aoes (Lei Shen's discharge) ignore vengeance and doesn't update it, while Ra-Den's phase 2 aoe does. There's a whole host of buggy and stupid mechanics associated with vengeance.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-05-15 at 06:42 PM.

  3. #483
    Running with Mione on this, since I don't really want to go back in and re-re-quote everything again. Plus he has some good sentiments that echo my points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For PvP. You cite Blood DKs (who were indeed mostly useless) but conveniently forget prot paladins (as both healers or DPS) and prot warriors, who both were retardedly OP in their respective seasons. Blood DKs would have been good as well if they had the same utility as other tanks.
    This is the biggest, most obvious reason for vengeance as a tuning knob.**

    For helping shitty geared tanks to hold threat in 5-mans. You can't have LFR/LFD and the basics of tanking being hard to accomplish at the same time. With LFR/LFD, any moron that plays his class for the first time needs to be able to hold threat easily.
    While I lament the fact that the player base has devolved to needing training wheels in the form on vengeance to prop up poor play, even WITH a huge passive threat modifier, the fact is that the majority of the audience (and revenue source) needs these tools to function. I don't think it's good, and dont support it for this purpose, but there is not really anything else you CAN have, short of just buffing threat to the point that auto-attacks hold aggro. This is why I'd like to see logarithmic scaling of vengeance, with a quick ramp up and a low ceiling, to keep numbers fine for "casual" content without creating huge disparities and balance nightmares at heroic/progression levels.

    For fun. You might say it's subjective to compete for higher DPS, but I call bullshit. The LK model had tanks doing kay-ish damage (resulting in PvP issues@above), but no-one wants to go back to BC levels where your abilities do nothing at all and you just spam debuffs that do more threat than your actual damage. The MoP model has issues as well (tanks do absurd amounts of damage), but that's not just Vengeance, as DKs and Warriors are not guilty of this despite it.
    While fun is subjective, I think that *most* everyone will agree that tangible or visceral rewards are fun. Fun doesn't have to be topping meters (and I agree that we shouldn't be that high unless a gimmick like Alys), but certainly something more meaningful than spamming sunder armor can be accomplished.

    And finally, the MoP version allows for a higher skillcap. Your tanking philosophy might be to achieve the least damage taken possible, personally as a tank I've never had that goal - ever. My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
    Care to admit it or not, this is truth. It simply, mechanically and logically stands to reason that if you can and do survive the encounter, keep the boss in the right place, and assist with utility as the class is able, all that you can do to increase you value to the raid is to increase your throughput. Now, if you have tank A, who has perfect boss placement, CD usage, and raid utility but does 50k DPS, and tank B who is spiky as hell, gets melee cleaved or OOR, and does 150k DPS, we can all agree that tank A is the better choice. The real issue comes when you have 2 tank A's, but one doing more damage than the other. Ceteris paribus, the higher dps tank is the "better" tank, simply because he does more of one thing, while doing the same of the rest. That skill cap is just now more pronounced with Veng. If this was LK, you'd see a much smaller delta between a good and great tank, simply because of the scaling. Sometimes, it could be so small as to not be noticed; not being noticed, when busting your ass, is a great way to feel unrewarded. Now, do we need a HUGE delta? Nope. And that's why I've suggested the changes above to ramp-up and ceiling of vengeance, to preserve the skill cap while keeping numbers sane.

    Blizzard has explicitly said they didn't want to copy-paste Death Strike. How would you provide values for abilities like SBar/FR/SoI/WoG/Expel Harm/etc, making them scale depending on the encounter, without relying on:
    - damage taken over the last X seconds
    - vengeance? (which is pretty much the delayed version of damage taken anyway)

    I'm genuinely curious.
    This is what I was trying to ask, but as it seems that Vell and I have established a vitriolic rapport, I can understand that I likely won't get a reply. But, I still would be curious if there is a better, easier or more elegant solution than what we have in place.

    **Edit: I will note that with the 5.3 changes to FC's in RBGs, Blizz may be trying to finally kill off the tank spec in PVP period. They've already said basically that "if tanks enjoy PVP, nobody else does". You've got 3 options: Survival, Control, Damage. Pick 2. Tanks, prior to veng changes/removal had all 3. Tanks in LK also had all 3 (at varying times). If they remove tanks period, the game will surely continue, but until then I still assert that vengeance serves as a tuning knob for their "balance".
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-15 at 07:42 PM.
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  4. #484
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Why did a "nerf paladins omg" thread turn into a "nerf vengeance omg i cant outdps my tank" thread?
    Fallout 4 Hype!

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Why did a "nerf paladins omg" thread turn into a "nerf vengeance omg i cant outdps my tank" thread?
    A large portion of the reasons why paladins feel so overpowered is directly due to vengeance. Why address the symptoms when you can treat the disease?

    For what it's worth, I tank and I feel vengeance is beyond stupid.

  6. #486
    Blademaster Prokk's Avatar
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    This thread should've been a Nerf Vengeance thread. That is where the problem lies, not the class of tank. The mechanic is broken/overpowered and that's why tanks are sometimes at the top of damage meters. Have you seen DPS rankings lately for 25 Heroic? More monks in the top 20 than paladins... I guess monks now need a nerf huh...

    "I am Rei Shen, prease!!"

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Prokk View Post
    This thread should've been a Nerf Vengeance thread. That is where the problem lies, not the class of tank. The mechanic is broken/overpowered and that's why tanks are sometimes at the top of damage meters. Have you seen DPS rankings lately for 25 Heroic? More monks in the top 20 than paladins... I guess monks now need a nerf huh...
    Er... of course they do. They are even bigger offenders. That, or balance. Don't care if via nerfs or buffs. The fun of a class is on the mechanics, not on being lolop. As long as the other lolopness don't makes you doubt you should play the class you are on, only mechanics make or break the fun factor.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-05-15 at 09:12 PM.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Agreed, but it feels somewhat counterproductive to take more damage just so you can deal more/meet the dps check easier. My partner tank and I do it all the time, but I'll be the first to admit it gets us killed far more often than if we played "properly." It doesn't help that vengeance doesn't actually work the way it's advertised (based only off the unmitigated swing of the boss): If you /sit before a swing, you get more vengeance than if you were to take it normally. If you zen med a decapitate you get twice as much vengeance compared to if you just guarded through it. If you have a damage taken increased debuff, you get more vengeance. Some aoes (Lei Shen's discharge) ignore vengeance and doesn't update it, while Ra-Den's phase 2 aoe does. There's a whole host of buggy and stupid mechanics associated with vengeance.
    Another problem is Vengeance doesn't update every second; it only updates when you take damage. So if you Zen Med a Decapitate and don't take any damage for the next 20 seconds, you get to keep the full Vengeance for 20 seconds. Instead it should work like Stagger, where the current value is updated every second and your current vengeance is the average of the total damage you took over the past 20 seconds.

    Sacred Shield is big offender for Vengeance abuse. It should not snapshot at all, and each tick should be based on the caster's current Attack Power. It's really stupid to be able to put a really strong 30-second absorb on your co-tank after a taunt-swap.

    There really is no way to completely balance tank classes without completely homogenizing every class. Compare a Brewmaster to a Blood DK for Ra-den Fatal Strike. The Blood DK literally has a window that is the size of Ra-den's swing timer to Death Strike so he doesn't die, while a Brewmaster completely ignores Fatal Strike because Shuffle uptime is 100%. In fact I don't think I've seen any Ra-den kills that used a Blood DK main tank.

  9. #489
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Vengeance should be toned down, to cap at about 25-40% of what it does now (so, 25-40% of max HP, or ~200-300k AP). This keeps absorb/heal values in the realm of sanity, keeps tank damage meaningful without being all consuming, and still allows for a modicum of skill required to min-max raid effectiveness as a tank.
    The reason why Blizzard didn't want to do this in the first place (put a meaningful, reachable cap in vengeance) was that it would then turn Stamina into a DPS stat, if I remember. I don't actually think people were stacking Stamina to begin with to increase vengeance before, but in any case, if it means Stamina becomes a new DPS stat rather than haste, perhaps this is better for everyone?

    Either way, I don't actually agree with "nerfing" vengeance so much as re-working it next expansion entirely.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For PvP. You cite Blood DKs (who were indeed mostly useless) but conveniently forget prot paladins (as both healers or DPS) and prot warriors, who both were retardedly OP in their respective seasons.
    At least in the case of prot wars I don't think it was really related to their damage capabilities. Granted a full arp geared reck burst was insane the way bigger issue was the impossibility to peel a prot plus the ridiculous utility via stuns, silence and kick against casters comps who were dominating the scene the later seasons hard which also enabled them to wear really low resilience without worrying too much so most were even easily wearing the 2p t10 for additional burst. Also how shields worked back in the days certainly was helpful against the occasional melee you would meet. The warbringer fix + slight damage nerfs and the removal of revenge the proc stun fixed that problem rather fast as I don't think that atc was way superior to phd later on.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-05-15 at 10:25 PM.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    There really is no way to completely balance tank classes without completely homogenizing every class. Compare a Brewmaster to a Blood DK for Ra-den Fatal Strike. The Blood DK literally has a window that is the size of Ra-den's swing timer to Death Strike so he doesn't die, while a Brewmaster completely ignores Fatal Strike because Shuffle uptime is 100%. In fact I don't think I've seen any Ra-den kills that used a Blood DK main tank.
    That ability seems so poorly thought out, there's no way anyone decent tested it with all tanks and came to the conclusion that a 99% uptime buff is equal to having a fucking blood shield.

  12. #492
    Pandaren Monk schwank05's Avatar
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    Paladins other than Ret never get Nerfed, they only get buffed because everyone loves them because they are OP.

  13. #493
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Paladins other than Ret never get Nerfed, they only get buffed because everyone loves them because they are OP.
    Which is why this coming patch the Rets are getting buffed, and the non-rets are getting nerfed...................

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Which is why this coming patch the Rets are getting buffed, and the non-rets are getting nerfed...................
    You there. Keep your logic out of this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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  15. #495
    Scarab Lord Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Wholeheartedly agreed. It feels stupid to have tanks top dps on the majority of fights. It feels stupider to bring multiple tanks to a single tank fight because bringing a second tank will add more control, damage, and healing than taking a dps class will.
    I'm glad to see someone agree with me, but I wouldn't cite this argument because it's totally subjective. I'm also pretty sure that bringing an extra tank wouldn't result in more RDPS, unless you really fudged a mechanic somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For PvP.
    When Vengeance was introduced, can you link to me a source that states it was done for PvP? It's an honest request.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For helping shitty geared tanks to hold threat in 5-mans. You can't have LFR/LFD and the basics of tanking being hard to accomplish at the same time. With LFR/LFD, any moron that plays his class for the first time needs to be able to hold threat easily.
    Two problems with this; first, MoP ditched the challenging five-man content in the queue. Secondly, they buffed the threat generation of all the tanking stances to accommodate. Vengeance is not required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    For fun. You might say it's subjective to compete for higher DPS, but I call bullshit.
    You call bullshit? My opinion differs from yours. Oops. I think someone needs to quickly check what "subjective" means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    The LK model had tanks doing kay-ish damage (resulting in PvP issues@above), but no-one wants to go back to BC levels where your abilities do nothing at all and you just spam debuffs that do more threat than your actual damage. The MoP model has issues as well (tanks do absurd amounts of damage), but that's not just Vengeance, as DKs and Warriors are not guilty of this despite it.
    I'm a huge fan of the current model that prioritizes hit, expertise and secondary DPS stats (with the omissions you mention). I think that's a far more sophisticated way of bringing tank damage up to "meaningful" levels without any need for Vengeance. I'm also going to say that's something of a different debate, but buffing damage via a different gearing/playing strategy is absolutely fun, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    And finally, the MoP version allows for a higher skillcap. Your tanking philosophy might be to achieve the least damage taken possible, personally as a tank I've never had that goal - ever. My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
    I'm not playing in a particularly good guild these days, which is why I prioritize defence. Yet, despite not cheesing mechanics to get more Vengeance, I'm still ranked multiple times in the current tier because I prioritize resource generation for defensive purposes which, if you recall, was one of the design intentions of the active mitigation system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Blizzard has explicitly said they didn't want to copy-paste Death Strike. How would you provide values for abilities like SBar/FR/SoI/WoG/Expel Harm/etc, making them scale depending on the encounter, without relying on:
    - damage taken over the last X seconds
    - vengeance? (which is pretty much the delayed version of damage taken anyway)

    I'm genuinely curious.
    First of all, they don't have to scale depending on the encounter; you could argue that it's a problem doing that, actually, and we got through two full expansions, plus the original game, without requiring it. But, I do like this idea:

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Why not make them run off of how much damage you did in the past 10 seconds? Lets say instead of doing 200k dps with 100k vengeance, and your sbar is absorbing 200k damage per pop, they nerf/remove vengeance so that you're only doing 100k dps, but when you press sbar, you absorb a quarter of the amount of damage you did over the last 10 seconds = 250k barrier. Actually, upon further thought, it should scale quadratically with the damage that you do, so more like damage done over the last 10 seconds squared, divided by 500k, or thereabouts.

    Makes damage meaningful and still scales with gear.
    I'm not sure it works exactly as presented, but I like the idea. The main reason I don't think it'll happen is because it would require Blizzard to properly balance tank DPS which, at the moment, they're not doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    If it results in tank damage being too low (which I doubt), we can just bump base damage and increase Battle Exhaustion's pvp effect to make tanks do 50% damage as well, or whatever.
    Yep. The game simply doesn't need Vengeance.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Agreed, but it feels somewhat counterproductive to take more damage just so you can deal more/meet the dps check easier. My partner tank and I do it all the time, but I'll be the first to admit it gets us killed far more often than if we played "properly." It doesn't help that vengeance doesn't actually work the way it's advertised (based only off the unmitigated swing of the boss): If you /sit before a swing, you get more vengeance than if you were to take it normally. If you zen med a decapitate you get twice as much vengeance compared to if you just guarded through it. If you have a damage taken increased debuff, you get more vengeance. Some aoes (Lei Shen's discharge) ignore vengeance and doesn't update it, while Ra-Den's phase 2 aoe does. There's a whole host of buggy and stupid mechanics associated with vengeance.
    Maybe that's one of my biggests issue with Vengeance, other than what I've already cited. It's just not transparent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    While I lament the fact that the player base has devolved to needing training wheels in the form on vengeance to prop up poor play, even WITH a huge passive threat modifier, the fact is that the majority of the audience (and revenue source) needs these tools to function. I don't think it's good, and dont support it for this purpose, but there is not really anything else you CAN have, short of just buffing threat to the point that auto-attacks hold aggro. This is why I'd like to see logarithmic scaling of vengeance, with a quick ramp up and a low ceiling, to keep numbers fine for "casual" content without creating huge disparities and balance nightmares at heroic/progression levels.
    The problem is that the tuning "knob" you describe (fairly, I might add) is on the razor's edge of a razor's edge between working fine for 5-mans compared to 25-man heroic. Also, lets not forget, that easy 5-mans are now the norm, so lost aggro doesn't actually matter any more because nobody can really die from it. I suppose what I'm saying is "Blizzard found Vengeance didn't work, so found other solutions".

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    While fun is subjective, I think that *most* everyone will agree that tangible or visceral rewards are fun. Fun doesn't have to be topping meters (and I agree that we shouldn't be that high unless a gimmick like Alys), but certainly something more meaningful than spamming sunder armor can be accomplished.
    I would say that DPS secondary gearing is "fun" because it provides a more visceral feel to combat that has probably been lacking prior to MoP. I don't like referencing other threads, but you've brought this up a couple of times and I completely agree with you. All I ask is that the debate is not painted in its extremes, which is what you're doing here - I'm NOT arguing for Sunder spamming, not under any circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    It simply, mechanically and logically stands to reason that if you can and do survive the encounter, keep the boss in the right place, and assist with utility as the class is able, all that you can do to increase you value to the raid is to increase your throughput. Now, if you have tank A, who has perfect boss placement, CD usage, and raid utility but does 50k DPS, and tank B who is spiky as hell, gets melee cleaved or OOR, and does 150k DPS, we can all agree that tank A is the better choice. The real issue comes when you have 2 tank A's, but one doing more damage than the other. Ceteris paribus, the higher dps tank is the "better" tank, simply because he does more of one thing, while doing the same of the rest.
    I've not tanked anything remotely difficult on my paladin, but this is where warriors are pretty well designed (though more by accident if you ask me). Shield Slam pretty much does everything if you're a warrior. It's by far the hardest-hitting attack, but also provides the most resources which, in turn, fuel your defences better. What I'm saying is that the situation you describe can't happen, at least not as far as warriors are concerned. I'm ranked multiple times in the normal tier despite the fact I'm not trying to increase my DPS in any way, shape or form. Go through my logs if you don't believe me.

    Warriors who are doing the most damage (outside of cheesing Vengeance by taking critical strikes sitting down) are the ones who're mitigating the most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    That skill cap is just now more pronounced with Veng. If this was LK, you'd see a much smaller delta between a good and great tank, simply because of the scaling. Sometimes, it could be so small as to not be noticed; not being noticed, when busting your ass, is a great way to feel unrewarded. Now, do we need a HUGE delta? Nope. And that's why I've suggested the changes above to ramp-up and ceiling of vengeance, to preserve the skill cap while keeping numbers sane.
    I actually feel that it's harder to now tell the difference between a good and bad tank because the numbers fluctuate so wildly between encounters depending on who's doing what. Generally in WotLK, there was a certain expectation of damage from each class and you could form an opinion around that fact before going into the other parts of their logs. Now, depending on what a tank is doing, you can make almost no judgement on whether their damage is good, bad or indifferent.

    This is a personal opinion, though - I'm not presenting it as a fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    This is what I was trying to ask, but as it seems that Vell and I have established a vitriolic rapport, I can understand that I likely won't get a reply. But, I still would be curious if there is a better, easier or more elegant solution than what we have in place.
    For my part in this argument, I want to apologise. There's no legitimate excuse for me to have behaved in the fashion I have, so I won't offer one.

    I'm sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    **Edit: I will note that with the 5.3 changes to FC's in RBGs, Blizz may be trying to finally kill off the tank spec in PVP period. They've already said basically that "if tanks enjoy PVP, nobody else does". You've got 3 options: Survival, Control, Damage. Pick 2. Tanks, prior to veng changes/removal had all 3. Tanks in LK also had all 3 (at varying times). If they remove tanks period, the game will surely continue, but until then I still assert that vengeance serves as a tuning knob for their "balance".
    Again, similar to previous discussion points, Blizzard are actively having to find other solutions to issues that Vengeance isn't fixing or, worse, is exasperating. They're piling bandages on top of bandages instead of fixing the root cause of a problem, and they've been doing it ever since Vengeance was introduced.

    That, more than anything, tells you that it's not working.
    Last edited by Amulree; 2013-05-16 at 08:35 AM.

  16. #496
    The part of which is most fun still is the AM part. If they take away vengeance but still manage to scale selfhealmechanics so they are not totaly broken in pvp. Each tank should still try to max his dps, its not like tank dmg didnt matter in cata in 10m it did. Spine hc for example. It was just way easier taking less dmg than it is now, or not so idiotic like the druid shield was.

    Most of the players that cry protpala is op either dont have one(nor ret or holy), and think they will one shot every heroic if they had one.

    On aoe fights or singetank fights tanks will do more dps thats the point of taking only one tank so you can take another dps and the overall dps is higher. If you 1tank a fight but have to take another healer to compensate the extra dmg the tank takes cause he sucks doenst help you at all. On almost all the other fights dps are higher than tanks. I found that dropping a healer and taking another dps is sometimes easier than onetanking the fight.

  17. #497
    Field Marshal Zeozordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    everythinig you mention here canbe done by any other tank if you have 1 or 2 paladins in the group, they dont have to be prot.

    Tortos can be solo tanked by anyone regardless of being a paladin.

    Megaera can be solo tanked by any tank as well, it has nothing to do with paladin abilities.

    Durumu, can be solo tanked/ 2healed with any tank, youu just need 1 paladin in the group

    Iron Qon can be solo tanked by any tank, you just need 1 paladin in the grp.


    You're complaining about an issue that does not exist.
    THIS^^

    I am a Prot Pala and a DK tank, and I have to say that both have their strenghts and both have their weaknesses as with all tanks. I cant always get a group setup right to lets say CM with my pala but then again fly trough them with basicly any group setup with my Blood DK. BUT at the same time with a Holy Pala healing my ass I can solo tank all the bosses mentioned on my DK tank and as you already mentioned I know I can do it on my Pala tank.

    So now to the OP Pala tanks need no nerfing, as with all tank specs they might need some tweaking, but nerf is out of the question. you said your prot warrior should reroll his prot pala maybe just get yourself a paladin in your raid setup, if you have none maybe that means I am seeing a general problem your group has against us paladins and in that case I will just ignore this post anyway.

  18. #498
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    And finally, the MoP version allows for a higher skillcap. Your tanking philosophy might be to achieve the least damage taken possible, personally as a tank I've never had that goal - ever. My goal is to simply survive whatever the boss throws at me, being comfortable enough with my survival level, and then dealing as much damage as possible. Uncapped Vengeance adds a complete new layer of possibilities regarding damage output when it comes to cd usage, whether through personal cds or raid coordination with external cooldowns.
    While you call it skill, I quote Ghostcrawler's design intent that players should not feel obligated to take extra, otherwise-avoidable damage on purpose to increase DPS. I think it's stupid, apparently Blizzard agrees. (Note: I'm not against the idea of tanks getting more DPS stats, doing a better rotatoin, etc. for more DPS, but that has been in the game since before Vengeance).

    Pretty sure that was also intended for tanks, especially given multiple nerfs to the ability for tanks to actually increase DPS by doing so.

    As for why it wasn't removed? I think we all know that actually removing that aspect of the game would mean having to rework the Vengeance/AM system beyond what can realistically be done mid-expansion.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 01:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Each tank should still try to max his dps, its not like tank dmg didnt matter in cata in 10m it did. Spine hc for example.
    Right as far as I know, tanks maximizing DPS and possibly tuning gearing, talents (obviously mainly before MOP but even after with the glyph system), and playstyle to increase DPS for marginal survivability drops has always been part of the game.

    Meaning uncapped vengeance is far, far from "necessary" for this to happen.

  19. #499
    @Zell first - since we've got like 12 threads going back and forth, I am fine with a "truce" and return to civil discussion. It's easy to get heated, and get caught up, which we both have admittedly done. I think we both have good arguments, and both have been stubborn on some of them. Ironically, it's entirely possible that by the time you see this in here, you'll be mad at me for something posted somewhere else, but consider this an olive branch returned since you offered one as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    While you call it skill, I quote Ghostcrawler's design intent that players should not feel obligated to take extra, otherwise-avoidable damage on purpose to increase DPS. I think it's stupid, apparently Blizzard agrees. (Note: I'm not against the idea of tanks getting more DPS stats, doing a better rotatoin, etc. for more DPS, but that has been in the game since before Vengeance).

    Pretty sure that was also intended for tanks, especially given multiple nerfs to the ability for tanks to actually increase DPS by doing so.
    Here, I agree 100%. I think it's foolish for totally avoidable damage to give vengeance. Perhaps it can/should be changed such that environmental damage (via ground fires, rockfalls, void zones, defile) no longer grant vengeance at all. AOE pulses can be included, but may vary depending on if they are supposed to be soaked or not (like caustic gas on Primo, SHOULD give veng IMO).

    Additionally, going back to log scaling vengeance with a low cap as suggested prior, I wanted to touch on a comment you made about stam -> dps. If we cap Veng at say, 25% HP, stamina essentially yields 1/4 of an AP at MAX (capped veng). While I will say that this is certainly not zero, I think it's a fairly low value that wouldn't lead to abuse of stam stacking for DPS, purely for the inefficiency. Using this tier, for example, let's assume an 800k HP tank for easy math's sake:

    Soul Barrier has 2200 stam (522), meaning it would give ~50k HP (depending on stam modifiers per tank class); This would give 12.5k AP worth of "vengeance ceiling", or potential attack power. You'd still have to actually take damage to reach that level. That means you'd go from 800k HP (and 200k AP ceiling) to 850k HP (and 212.5k AP ceiling), a net change of ~6% maximum potential AP.
    Compared to DPS trinkets (using mine here, for reference, as a prot pal) like Spark of Zandalar and Fabled Feather, I'd be giving up 1200-1300 haste (or haste/hit), which is active fulltime regardless of veng/damage levels.

    Sure, Stamina also has passive benefits for tanks, and by most game archetypes SHOULD be the go-to stat (until you have "enough"), so it double-dips on usefullness here too, but if 25% is too high, we can ratchet it back down. It could end up being an interesting knob to tune or choice to make for the tank.

    As for why it wasn't removed? I think we all know that actually removing that aspect of the game would mean having to rework the Vengeance/AM system beyond what can realistically be done mid-expansion.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 01:02 PM ----------



    Right as far as I know, tanks maximizing DPS and possibly tuning gearing, talents (obviously mainly before MOP but even after with the glyph system), and playstyle to increase DPS for marginal survivability drops has always been part of the game.

    Meaning uncapped vengeance is far, far from "necessary" for this to happen.
    Agreed 100%, uncapped (or ceiling near as makes no difference to uncapped) is pointless. Problem is, there doesn't seem to be any more elegant solution to the vengeance idea that I can come up with or have seen.

    If you have "set values" like we used to in vanilla/BC and really LK too, you have an issue where mid-to-late tier, tanks are so inflated on avoidance (for example) that they take no damage (and can actually do less DPS, prior to the rage changes, for example). Start of the tier is rough because there simply aren't enough stat points available on gear to make non-avoidance based mitigation scale well. Using the MoP model, if we didn't have inflated AP levels from Veng, things like Shield Barr, Sacred Shield, FR, etc would all be very low absorbs/heals simply because our AP as tanks is low (even until very late in the tier). Mitigation from avoidance is low for the same reasons; not enough stat allocation. We COULD make the scaling of these absorbs/heals significantly higher as a baseline in this model, but then you'd have nigh-unkillable tanks in PVP.

    As the tier progresses, mitigation picks up. Considerably, as we approach the end of the expansion. Recall block value gear (RIP friend) that eventually let warriors take NO damage. It wasn't uncommon for warriors at the end of BC to so outgear content that they actually had a net decrease in damage done because of rage starvation due to no damage taken. Then we have the CTC debacle in cata, which required intervention by the dev's to prevent "unintended levels of mitigation". Obviously those models have changed, but these are just some examples of how static mitigation has had issues prior.

    Using vengeance (judiciously) allows the devs to prop up mitigation at the start of the expansion (via high-powered absorb/heal mechanics) while the rest of the AM systems catch up with gear. Now, I will say that the ceiling is too high and should be cut drastically, but the model is sound in theory other than that. It is a self governing system that prevents *most* of the issues that come with late-tier tank scaling that we saw previously. However, it does trade those for some new issues in it's current iteration, such as the "stand in fire for deepz" abuse.

    Ergo, removing environmental contributions to Vengeance, lowering the ceiling to ~20% of tank HP instead of 100%, and ramping up the scaling speed(to allow casual/unskilled players to hold threat in early AND late content) would fix a majority of the current complaints, in my opinion. It would still allow tanks to have a moderate contribution to DPS (and self-HPS when applicable), but not be the overwhelming force they are currently. Coupling that with some changes to tank scaling, like getting rid of D/P as a stat (remaining only via native STR/AGI) and making DK/Warr scale with secondaries like the rest of the tanks, should help to bring DPS parity to the tanks.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-16 at 02:03 PM. Reason: i speel gud
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    20k and counting...

  20. #500
    If you don't run ToT HC with your paladin tank, i understand it might not seem overpowered, even T14 HC's you can't generate enough vengeance for paladin to be OP. And for example DPS STR meta gem for our paladin maintank is like 11% of his DPS. He tops DPS meters almost on every boss on ToT HC and for example on Ra-den he did 360k dps while second dps was 200k. Sure monk tank can pull good dps and top meters, but i don't think its as good as paladin. And paladin has sick selfheal, don't remember exactly numbers but its huge.

    I don't mind tank topping dps and healing meters, but i would like to see every tank class/spec being able to do so. Just make every tank dps/heal scale with secondary stats while having good defense like haste for paladin and crit for monks or nerf paladins/monks.

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