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  1. #501
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Raden is the bestboss to compare tanks. A boss that is totaly broken (blizzard even said they fucked that boss up hard) and only 52guilds have killed it so far. And as far as I know monks are alot stronger than paladins on that fight. And the str meta can never be 11% of your dps.

    In t14 tanks also did alot of high dmg. At the start of the new tier, tanks will always top meters. it doesnt matter if nh or hc, if a tank is op you will see it in both.

    And like firefly posted, the difference is not so huge. And he only posted the top100 of each class.
    I meant the melee/ranged dps legendary metagem, and looking from logs, its like 11-12% of his damage. And i don't think it's intended(or bad game design) for tanks to pick DPS metagems and DPS trinkets instead of tanking ones(but tanking trinkets are just bad).
    Last edited by mmoc047901df21; 2013-05-16 at 03:52 PM.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by esatikkane View Post
    I meant the melee dps legendary metagem, and looking from logs, its like 11-12% of his damage. And i don't think it's intended(or bad game design) for tanks to pick DPS metagems and DPS trinkets instead of tanking ones(but tanking trinkets are just bad).
    TBH, if they don't want tanks taking the dps meta, they shouldn't have the tank meta be a random proc

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  3. #503
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    And like firefly posted, the difference is not so huge. And he only posted the top100 of each class.
    I posted the top 25 of each class, which to me is the most relevant. Checking how much the 'best' players can push out. I often pick top 25, since the top 1-5 logs are most often using some strange tactic / bad play from the tank to pad the meters, so taking top 25 is my way of still taking good players while trying to take out the "bad" logs in the top 5. It is not perfect, but it is my preference. Though the issue still comes up, especially in 25H, that the sample size is WAAAAY to small to check logs and say "proof". 10H is also way to few logs, but it is far more accurate than 10H. So checking 25H is more a grain of salt. 10H is semi accurate, but still, could use more logs.

    It is also very hard to account for the difference in DPS between tanks when you got 300% more logs of one class than the other.
    It becomes a special problem when you have especially the later fights in 25H messing up the results.

    If you check a fight like Durumu.
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Durum...00011111000000
    What we first see is OMG PALADINS OP! Which is a lot of where these threads are coming from. Though we need to consider the sample size. As I said, what I am checking is the top 25, that works well when we got high sample sizes, like normal modes and to some extent 10H. But for 25H, not that much What happens in 25H is that Paladins get ranked a lot higher than they should and druids far lower.
    Basically if we check durumu specific, we are comparing the 25th of 238 paladins vs say, the 25th of 36 druids. Not only do paladins get 661% more kills to get high rankings no, padding meters etc. We are comparing 89th percentile of paladins vs the 31st percentile of druids. Again, obvious reasons that the results are skewered.

    This is the main reason I do not like to take 25H logs as a baseline, because the sample size screws over the results so hard.

    You see the issue if you check for example Jin'Rokh, and compare the 25th log
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Jin%2...00011111000000
    with the 95th percentile of all logs
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Jin%2...00011111000000

    Now jin'rokh is probably one of the most accurate 25H fights simple because of the sample size, even though the fight itself involves tosses, damage increase etc. Still, even on jin'rokh the sample size is bad. Again, all of the 25H needs to be taking with a grain of salt due to sample size.

    The results in my previous post still kinda speak for themselves. Since paladins are not even on top even though they have the highest sample size. The highest dps output of tanks is quite even. It may go one way or another, the 2 major things is that warriors are on the bottom by far, and monks are probably in the lead by far, especially in 25H.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 04:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by esatikkane View Post
    I meant the melee/ranged dps legendary metagem, and looking from logs, its like 11-12% of his damage. And i don't think it's intended(or bad game design) for tanks to pick DPS metagems and DPS trinkets instead of tanking ones(but tanking trinkets are just bad).
    Blizzard has always been terrible at designing tank trinkets, tank set bonuses and in this case tank meta gem.
    They never understand that tanks want reliability, not randomness. The basic reasoning between tanks picking dps meta for tanks.

    1. I could survive even before the meta, so why do I need more TDR? TDR is not important.
    2. Even though the tank meta got a high uptime, it is still random and unreliable. I can never guarantee to have it or not to have it. If it was a passive 5% reduction it would have been better than a proccing 20%. Reliability is everything.
    What would have been better is if the meta gem gave you another spell, another CD, say a 20% damage reduction for 5-10 seconds every 30-60 seconds or so. That would have been far more useful and then you would probably have seen tanks pick it up.
    3. So we established that the meta gem does very little for tank survivability, just add some TDR which we do not care about anyway.
    So we get the choice between a terrible gem or getting a 10% dps increase. 10% dps increase is not random, it helps the group, makes a big difference on progress. It is not really a competetion.

    Until blizzard realise what tanks want, they will continue to design bad stuff for tanks, and we will see tank opt for dps over 'tanking' stuff.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    The problem, yet again, is that you're looking at only dps and healing meters, not the entire context. If you're going to compare tanks, compare, for example, damage taken AND self healing (i.e., net damage taken); by leaving out the context of damage taken, and just looking at damage and healing done, you're completely ignoring effects like a druid's T&C.
    I think you'll find that Prot Pal already rides high (or low, as the case may be) on dmg taken, and high on self healing individually. Adding them both in as a function of net damage (or outside assistance required) will put them leaps and bounds above any other class right now.

    I agree that there are a LOT of people in here who can't read or understand logs and how to interpret them, but in terms of outside assistance required or net dmg in, paladins will be the superior choice every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    A mature approach. I accept your apology, and hope you can accept mine.
    I'd be interested to see your take on my suggestion on how to adjust vengeance, rather than scrap it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    TBH, if they don't want tanks taking the dps meta, they shouldn't have the tank meta be a random proc
    Ding ding ding. Random procs (even with high uptime) are pretty underwhelming. This is why we hate dodge and parry; we want reliability (other benefits of haste/mastery etc notwithstanding). Plus, it's only PHYS mitigation. Zzzzzz....every tank already has a boatload of tools to reduce physical dmg. If they want us to take "tank gear/items", they should make them compelling and/or useful.



    edit: Jesus, Firefly. That's almost creepy how close we're posting now.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-16 at 04:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  5. #505
    Blademaster GrandCrusaderDante's Avatar
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    I dont know why this guy is complaining but Prot is strong due to Glyph of Battle Healer meaning we are equal to a Blood DK's healing, im surprised you havnt bitched about their healing if we are equal as they are. Damage wise we are pretty much strong at the moment IF you are going the haste build.

    /caseclosed

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCrusaderDante View Post
    I dont know why this guy is complaining but Prot is strong due to Glyph of Battle Healer meaning we are equal to a Blood DK's healing, im surprised you havnt bitched about their healing if we are equal as they are. Damage wise we are pretty much strong at the moment IF you are going the haste build.

    /caseclosed
    We are not strong healers because of BH. BH is ~15-20% of your healing as Prot; majority is from SoI and SS as self heals. BH is about as useful as Bloodworms for DKs, in that they both are non-controllable, largely overhealing passive raid heals.

    His issue with DK vs. Pala healing is that Pala's do heal about as much or more than a blood DK, factoring in shields for both. That would be fine except for the fact that healing is a blood DK's only AM, while Pala still gets ShotR as an AM tool in addition to healing. All other factors like armor%, health%, and dmg redux% modifiers do vary between the 2 classes, but his gripe is that paladins essentially get an "extra" form of mitigation over DKs. Plus, DKs have fuck-all for raid CDs, whereas paladins are THE utility tank (warrior stuff notwithstanding).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  7. #507
    Deleted
    Yes, Mione, I would love to check Ra-Den logs and IQ logs, but in my opinion, the sample bias makes that impossible. Also IQ got the increased problem that a larger % of paladins are solo tanking it in comparison to DKs, further skewering the results.

    Jin'Rokh is imo the best fight to check in 25H simply because it has the lowest sample bias and it is fair to all tanks. Since every tank gets tossed, every tank gets the damage buff etc. The fight itself has ups and downs, but it is the same for everyone. You wont be seeing people solo tanking it.

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Jin%2...00011111000000

    That is the 95th percentile on Jin'Rokh 25HC.

    I mean, you talk about Tortos HC being unfair for DKs skewering results. That is 1 fight. Then you gotta understand than the frustration for a paladin since we have the sample bias against us on every single fight.

    Which I said several times. While I would love to use 25HC as baseline since it is obvious where the highest vengeance is. Though I still find it next to impossible to use 25HC as an accurate baseline due to the small sample sizes.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-05-16 at 05:23 PM.

  8. #508
    One issue with JinRohk is that DKs can reliably solo tank with AMS for full puddle-vengeance goodness.
    Paladins can bubble off the debuff once (maybe twice if DPS is poor), but can't reliably tank full time.
    Every other tank class has to swap (or at least have a debuff-bitch to grab it).

    Not a huge thing, but something to be aware of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  9. #509
    Deleted
    Yes, I completely agree that warriors should get a big damage buff and dks should probably get a smaller one.
    What I disagree with is the common claim that seems to float around that paladins are the highest dps tank, they are far from.
    In a lot of cases druids even wins over paladins.

  10. #510
    I'm also pretty sure that bringing an extra tank wouldn't result in more RDPS, unless you really fudged a mechanic somewhere.
    On aoe fights or singetank fights tanks will do more dps thats the point of taking only one tank so you can take another dps and the overall dps is higher. If you 1tank a fight but have to take another healer to compensate the extra dmg the tank takes cause he sucks doenst help you at all. On almost all the other fights dps are higher than tanks.
    When we were progressing on Ra-den, we investigated the solo/duo tank setups. The solo tanks on first kills seem to average around 350k dps (and probably around 120 mil healing, maybe 130 mil). My tank partner and I averaged somewhere around 280k-290k sharing vengeance, and each of us did about 100 million healing throughout the fight.

    Our top dps was around 200k, which is fairly respectable for a single target fight, I guess. He also did no healing (and very little of the top dps specs do significant amounts of healing anyway). Our bottom dps was around 140k? Something like that.

    Solo tank + top dps = 550k rdps, ~120 mil healing, and generally a wipe if the tank dies.
    Solo tank + bottom dps = 490k rdps, ~120 mil healing, and generally a wipe if the tank dies.
    Duo tank = 570k rdps, ~200 mil healing, and tanks can die without fear of wipes (which happened twice on our kill.)

    Take also into consideration that you're not going to replace your top dps, but your bottom one who is doing around 150k if you bring in a second tank, and the difference is even more glaring.

    It's even worse these days, now that we can focus on damage, I think we average somewhere around 360k dps duo tanking the boss, while a solo tank can probably only get 450k dps. So your lowest dps player needs to do about 270k to even consider solo tanking the fight. Note that in a month our damage has ramped up by 30% or thereabouts while dps damage has gone up by maybe 5-10%.

    Pretty stupid. Subjectively, yes, but stupid. (For what it's worth, I believe the same argument can be made for Lei Shen - that is, it's eminently solo tankable yet bringing a second tank beats bringing another dps in terms of overall damage and healing, with more control as a bonus.)
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-05-16 at 07:22 PM.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    When we were progressing on Ra-den, we investigated the solo/duo tank setups. The solo tanks on first kills seem to average around 350k dps (and probably around 120 mil healing, maybe 130 mil). My tank partner and I averaged somewhere around 280k-290k sharing vengeance, and each of us did about 100 million healing throughout the fight.

    Our top dps was around 200k, which is fairly respectable for a single target fight, I guess. He also did no healing (and very little of the top dps specs do significant amounts of healing anyway). Our bottom dps was around 140k? Something like that.

    Solo tank + top dps = 550k rdps, ~120 mil healing, and generally a wipe if the tank dies.
    Solo tank + bottom dps = 490k rdps, ~120 mil healing, and generally a wipe if the tank dies.
    Duo tank = 570k rdps, ~200 mil healing, and tanks can die without fear of wipes (which happened twice on our kill.)

    Take also into consideration that you're not going to replace your top dps, but your bottom one who is doing around 150k if you bring in a second tank, and the difference is even more glaring.

    It's even worse these days, now that we can focus on damage, I think we average somewhere around 360k dps duo tanking the boss, while a solo tank can probably only get 450k dps. Note that in a month our damage has ramped up by 30% or thereabouts while dps damage has gone up by maybe 5-10%.

    Pretty stupid. Subjectively, yes, but stupid. (For what it's worth, I believe the same argument can be made for Lei Shen - that is, it's eminently solo tankable yet bringing a second tank beats bringing another dps in terms of overall damage and healing, with more control as a bonus.)
    May be coming to an end shortly:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tax View Post
    "@Ghostcrawler: Going to try Vengeance cap at 30% health (down from 100%) in 10s and 50% of health in 25s. This is a big change, so might be 5.4, not 5.3."
    Not sure if srs, or if it'll stick, but as I was suggesting earlier, this seems like the most elegant fix to the "issue". Wish they'd toss in the "no longer get vengeance from fire/environment damage" part of my suggestion too, but hey, it's a start.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  12. #512
    Deleted
    Don't think it fixes anything. May break the bring 2 tanks instead of 1 (a truely rare one circumstance), but it doesn't do anything for classes differences. Scaling issues appear far sooner than 350k-400k vengeance (25H), 210k-250k (10H). Just because 5.4 gear, fuck you lesser tank classes.

    Thanks for trying to care, though, GC.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Don't think it fixes anything. May break the bring 2 tanks instead of 1 (a truely rare one circumstance), but it doesn't do anything for classes differences. Scaling issues appear far sooner than 350k-400k vengeance (25H), 210k-250k (10H). Just because 5.4 gear, fuck you lesser tank classes.

    Thanks for trying to care, though, GC.
    It fixes a few choice encounters/cheeses: last phase Horridon and Iron Qon (not that they're relevant anymore), as well as cheesing decap on LS, and solo-tank Ra-Den. Agree its largely an effort to reign in the top 0.1%, not an actual "fix", but it's at least an acknowledgement as you stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #514
    It wouldn't fix anything, at least not for 25s.

    It actually exacerbates the 2 tank vs 1 tank thing - now there's actually even less of an advantage in piling vengeance on one person as it's capped. 2 tanking Ra-den, my vengeance generally never goes above 400k compared to when I solo tank the very end and I peak to 550k or so.

    I don't think you can have any realistic fight for a while that actually damages the tank more than Ra-den near the end , and you can easily pop some cooldowns (mostly warrior shouts & last stand) even as a solo tank to maintain 1 mil+ hp in 25s to increase your damage.

    During the last part of the Iron Qon zerg, I believe I peaked around 500k vengeance as well. Again, it lasts short enough that you can just have warriors chain rally cry then pop a last stand and never run up against the cap. Same for Horridon or some of the super high damage situations.

    What we need is a vengeance cap that's low enough such that you reach it basically instantly, and allows us to do comparable damage to a dps instead of more than twice as much. Right now, I think that number is roughly around 100-150k or so.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-05-16 at 07:19 PM.

  15. #515
    Why the focus on equalizing AM? It's not as if they're not hilariously imbalanced already.

    I'm aware that my supposed 150k vengeance cap would never make it into live because it introduces a whole host of other issues, including capping AM. I mentioned it merely to illustrate the uselessness of the 50% vengeance hp cap. It isn't going to change this expansion, but I do hope that in 6.0 I don't need a /sit macro, go out of my way to stand in fire, or purposely eat instant death mechanics with 90% reduction abilities to maximize my class. (Kinda like how tanking has gone full circle from frantically gearing for defense to eliminate crits to forcing crits on yourself anytime you can take it.)

  16. #516
    I'd be fine (thrilled) if they just made it so that critical attacks on tanks give the same veng as non-criticals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    I know I don't want a single buff on my DK. Our mitigation system is still the most interesting and the less prone to abuse out of all the tank specs, works completely fine in the new MoP model, and our damage is fine.
    Do you know of a log where a Blood DK solo tanks Ra-den for the entire fight? I'd love to see how Blood Shield compares to ShoR or Shuffle for Fatal Strike.

  18. #518
    Going to try Vengeance cap at 30% health (down from 100%) in 10s and 50% of health in 25s. This is a big change, so might be 5.4, not 5.3.
    Well, the fun is out the window.

    src: https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler

  19. #519
    just nerf prot pala healing spells by 50% and its fine

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Not sure if srs, or if it'll stick, but as I was suggesting earlier, this seems like the most elegant fix to the "issue". Wish they'd toss in the "no longer get vengeance from fire/environment damage" part of my suggestion too, but hey, it's a start.
    I don't think it's an elegant fix, I think it's a band-aid fix. Either a cap is likely not to be reached easily (in which case it might as well not be there) or if it is reached easily, it defeats the purpose of Vengeance.

    Hence my reasoning behind reworking the ability entirely in 6.0 (possibly removing it), it seems to be creating more problems than it's solving now.

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