1. #1

    arms warrior and haste questions

    Hello everyone, ive done some browsing around the forums and it comes to my general understanding that haste > crit for arms just because of the PPM trinket and PPM meta gem. Is haste > crit only if you have those two, 1 of those those two, none ? Also why are so many logs just warriors spamming overpower.. Doesnt make sense not to slam during each CS. does so much more dmg per global and does not rage starve you. You can get away with using 2 slams and 1 MS every CS. Here are some logs of me I lvl 500.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Semih/advanced

    jink rok : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e/?s=674&e=967

    horridon : http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...5&e=2633#Semih

    also saw a thread where someone went haste fury. How did that work out??

  2. #2
    its more like with feather + gaze and meta secondaries shift to ~20% crit > haste >= more crit > mastery. though that is still in the testing stage of theory. not a theory that i made but was made by another in a thread recently. he has stated that passive dmg is higher, smoother up time from trinks + meta, and slightly higher CS uptime and more rage gen.

    as far as more OPs in CS, i would say with its higher chance of critting it has the potential to sustain more dmg in CS than slam, but only slightly. my personal CS rotation is MS, OP, OP, 3rd OP or slam, MS for finish, with (rage willing) HS as many times on the GCDs. but durring recklessness + skull banner periods i drop all OPs in favor of slams.

    lastly, the haste fury, if i remember correctly ended up being not so well. with dropping crit in favor for haste fury loses enraged uptime and loss of dps from generally being able to use raging blow, i think it was halved in usage maybe less. as well dropping mastery for haste decreases the dmg bonus inside enrage effect. though i believe the general concensus was some is good, probably no more than 10% was stated somewhere.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bietr View Post
    its more like with feather + gaze and meta secondaries shift to ~20% crit > haste >= more crit > mastery. though that is still in the testing stage of theory. not a theory that i made but was made by another in a thread recently. he has stated that passive dmg is higher, smoother up time from trinks + meta, and slightly higher CS uptime and more rage gen.

    as far as more OPs in CS, i would say with its higher chance of critting it has the potential to sustain more dmg in CS than slam, but only slightly. my personal CS rotation is MS, OP, OP, 3rd OP or slam, MS for finish, with (rage willing) HS as many times on the GCDs. but durring recklessness + skull banner periods i drop all OPs in favor of slams.

    lastly, the haste fury, if i remember correctly ended up being not so well. with dropping crit in favor for haste fury loses enraged uptime and loss of dps from generally being able to use raging blow, i think it was halved in usage maybe less. as well dropping mastery for haste decreases the dmg bonus inside enrage effect. though i believe the general concensus was some is good, probably no more than 10% was stated somewhere.


    slam non crit during cs does more dmage than OP crit druing CS... doesnt make sense to waste a global on that. and slam is more rewarding because it crits upto 300k

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammy134 View Post
    slam non crit during cs does more dmage than OP crit druing CS... doesnt make sense to waste a global on that. and slam is more rewarding because it crits upto 300k
    The GCD 1 second for OP. OP is by FAR the top DPS because of its crit chance and therefor a 2x multiplier. 2 or 3 OP crits inside of a CS is much better at a 20 or 30 rage cost than one non crit slam and one OP. Especially given that CS will likely be up again quite soon and the slam you just cast will force an excessive .5 second GCD. That being said; if you can get a slam at the opening of a CS while enraged with a HS and both crit, then follow squeaking in two OP crits the numbers can be silly good.

    To sum up - Slam and Overpower are not the same either based on a GCD, crit chance or rage cost. Slam is situational, Overpower isn't so much. Slam is sorta the epitome of "if then" statements mathematically speaking. IF you have +40 rage, no stacks in queue for TfB waiting for CS, a target over 20% health, a free 1.5 sec GCD, no free rage abilities or Battleshout and MS is on +1 sec CD THEN Slam. If you're swimming in rage and you have reckbanner or stacks of Gaze (etc) and CS is up I spam slam as well - even to the point of "going oom".

    I ref: my posts on the other thread below talking about just this kind of stuff: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...d-stat-weights
    Last edited by Appolyon; 2013-04-30 at 02:03 AM.

  5. #5
    Would you guys reckon with PPM meta and forging for haste that normal spark will be better than a LFR feather? Or is there simply no question about it LFR feather simply triumphs over spark.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Appolyon View Post
    The GCD 1 second for OP. OP is by FAR the top DPS because of its crit chance and therefor a 2x multiplier. 2 or 3 OP crits inside of a CS is much better at a 20 or 30 rage cost than one non crit slam and one OP. Especially given that CS will likely be up again quite soon and the slam you just cast will force an excessive .5 second GCD. That being said; if you can get a slam at the opening of a CS while enraged with a HS and both crit, then follow squeaking in two OP crits the numbers can be silly good.

    To sum up - Slam and Overpower are not the same either based on a GCD, crit chance or rage cost. Slam is situational, Overpower isn't so much. Slam is sorta the epitome of "if then" statements mathematically speaking. IF you have +40 rage, no stacks in queue for TfB waiting for CS, a target over 20% health, a free 1.5 sec GCD, no free rage abilities or Battleshout and MS is on +1 sec CD THEN Slam. If you're swimming in rage and you have reckbanner or stacks of Gaze (etc) and CS is up I spam slam as well - even to the point of "going oom".

    I ref: my posts on the other thread below talking about just this kind of stuff: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...d-stat-weights
    i know your numerically a great arms warrior but your rather wrong, even a glance at simcraft shows this..



    now if you look at the average per use of slam you see it is 188k, 1/3 more than the per execute time, so a logical deduction would be that the 3rd goes away on the per execute time list because it is done on the basis of damage per 1 second (1 second of course being 2/3rds of the 1.5 second normal gcd).
    so what the list is saying is that your average slam is nearly 30k more damage per second than your average overpower.
    Damosapien - DPS(whatever spec is better in that teir)/prot Warrior http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced
    Damodrood - Resto/feral(hybrid) Druid http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...drood/advanced
    Damoo - Blood/frost Death knight http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Damoo/simple

  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damosapien View Post
    i know your numerically a great arms warrior but your rather wrong, even a glance at simcraft shows this..



    now if you look at the average per use of slam you see it is 188k, 1/3 more than the per execute time, so a logical deduction would be that the 3rd goes away on the per execute time list because it is done on the basis of damage per 1 second (1 second of course being 2/3rds of the 1.5 second normal gcd).
    so what the list is saying is that your average slam is nearly 30k more damage per second than your average overpower.
    *facepalm* That is NOT the way you determine priority lists...

  8. #8
    There's a problem with this damage per execute time list: simcraft tries to mainly hit slam during colossus or when reck is up, thus the average damage result in this chart is skimmed. It will only slam outside of those two conditions when MS is on cooldown and there are no tfb stacks present, thus if there's nothing else to push (besides shout + heroic throw). If you remove colossus from this equation both come down to a really close level (75k slam vs 72k overpower, <5% instead of 25%+ on this chart).

    In general the usage of slam is really limited due to the idea of not overcapping on TfB stacks, if you *not* slam at all the simmed difference is only 3%(174k vs 179k) with the advantage of not having another hotkey to push or to think about when/where to hit it. You can also get away with just hitting slam when there's nothing else to hit (so: not thinking about your rage during cs/reck) and deal competetive dps to the top sims (<1%) with the difference that in your damage per execute chart slam is now behind overpower. That's also my observation from actual playing arms, slamming just isn't worth it in most cases. And with that we come back to the orginal question: if you don't slam often you won't find yourself rage starved with a minimum amount of haste.

    Ps: what SimC-version you're using? I get noticeable different results with 520-7 (110k slam vs 88k overpower with T15H premade).
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-04-30 at 05:41 PM.

  9. #9
    During CS you either use 2xOP and have 0.1 sec to get the last ability into CS or use 3xOP and have 0.6 sec to get the last ability into CS. Three OPs should do more damage then two slams. When I have reck+t154p up I switch to slam (that's what skewing your numbers damosapien).

    I noticed the value of crit went down quite a bit when I got T15 4piece but its still better then haste for me(legendary meta & gaze+talisman). Recon I'll need the feather trinket before haste gets interesting maybe even some more hc gear.

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Appolyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    That is NOT the way you determine priority lists...

    ^^^^this^^^^

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by klausistklaus View Post
    Ps: what SimC-version you're using? I get noticeable different results with 520-7 (110k slam vs 88k overpower with T15H premade).
    that was linked from the site, which is using the next version to be released, 520-8
    Damosapien - DPS(whatever spec is better in that teir)/prot Warrior http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced
    Damodrood - Resto/feral(hybrid) Druid http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...drood/advanced
    Damoo - Blood/frost Death knight http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Damoo/simple

  12. #12
    so by general consensus, we are getting 1 ms, + 4 OP in once CS??

    you have 6 seconds to do as much abilities. 1 ms, brings you to 4.5 secs, 1 OP 3.5 sec, 2 OP 2.5 sec, 3 OP 1.5 sec, 4 OP 0.5 sec. I wont count the last because of latency.

    If slamming

    1 Ms, 4.5 sec, 1 slam 3 sec, 2 slam 1.5 sec, 3 slam 0 sec.

    So now we compare 3 slams to 4 overpowers and the damage output. My overpowers hit around 90k crit during CS and slam does around 110k non crit. So assuming that slam does not crit once, doing OP during CS is better. So is it better to take the risk and go slam way if we have any crit modifiers on us? Or is slamming still better because you will have to set up 2 OP usages because you need 2 stacks of TfB going into your CS so you will have 4 after CS. Feel free to correct me if i messed up anywhere

  13. #13
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammy134 View Post
    so by general consensus, we are getting 1 ms, + 4 OP in once CS??

    you have 6 seconds to do as much abilities. 1 ms, brings you to 4.5 secs, 1 OP 3.5 sec, 2 OP 2.5 sec, 3 OP 1.5 sec, 4 OP 0.5 sec. I wont count the last because of latency.

    If slamming

    1 Ms, 4.5 sec, 1 slam 3 sec, 2 slam 1.5 sec, 3 slam 0 sec.

    So now we compare 3 slams to 4 overpowers and the damage output. My overpowers hit around 90k crit during CS and slam does around 110k non crit. So assuming that slam does not crit once, doing OP during CS is better. So is it better to take the risk and go slam way if we have any crit modifiers on us? Or is slamming still better because you will have to set up 2 OP usages because you need 2 stacks of TfB going into your CS so you will have 4 after CS. Feel free to correct me if i messed up anywhere
    The other thing to consider is that if using OP, you can get in more HS than if slamming. DPR and DPGCD need to be factored.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by sammy134 View Post
    so by general consensus, we are getting 1 ms, + 4 OP in once CS??

    you have 6 seconds to do as much abilities. 1 ms, brings you to 4.5 secs, 1 OP 3.5 sec, 2 OP 2.5 sec, 3 OP 1.5 sec, 4 OP 0.5 sec. I wont count the last because of latency.

    If slamming

    1 Ms, 4.5 sec, 1 slam 3 sec, 2 slam 1.5 sec, 3 slam 0 sec.

    So now we compare 3 slams to 4 overpowers and the damage output. My overpowers hit around 90k crit during CS and slam does around 110k non crit. So assuming that slam does not crit once, doing OP during CS is better. So is it better to take the risk and go slam way if we have any crit modifiers on us? Or is slamming still better because you will have to set up 2 OP usages because you need 2 stacks of TfB going into your CS so you will have 4 after CS. Feel free to correct me if i messed up anywhere
    This is nowhere near correct. You either use 2xOP or 3xOP during CS this is why. CS has a 6.5 sec duration and a 0.1 sec delay between CS hitting and the mob getting the debuff. After CS you have 5.1 sec of the debuff left you either use 2xOP+2xslam/MS=5secs and have 0.1 sec left for the last ability or you use 3xOP+MS=4.5sec and you have 0.6 sec left for the last ability. For the last ability you want to prioritize MS>CS>slam and never use OP.
    I'm not sure if it's worth it with just recklessness(skullbanner effects OP more without 100% crit) but since I got the T15 4piece I switched to slam once every 3 min you get 3xslam+MS inside a CS. Another thing you want to keep in mind is during the 12 sec duration of bloodbath/reck its optimal to go for 4xOP or 1xOP for the maximum number of abilities.
    Last edited by bigbad; 2013-05-02 at 08:14 AM.

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