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  1. #241
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azureqt View Post
    Nearly ALL the PvE content was recycled... I can list it for you...

    Dragon Soul (Raid)
    Firelands (Raid)
    Blackwing Lair (Raid)

    Deadmines (5 Man)
    Shadowfang Keep (5 Man)
    Zul'Farrak (LOL 5 Man)
    Zul'Aman (LOL 5 Man)
    End Time (5 man)
    Hour of Twilight (5 man)
    We're using "recyled" pretty loosely here. ZA is really the only one that belongs on this list.

    Almost all the others were minimal reuse - a single name, lore figure, location, or map. As far as actual gameplay, they were wildly different. Nothing about BWD was the same as BWL except that it took place in the same zone and the final boss was the same figure in lore (but the fight was radically different). SFK, Deadmines, ZG, etc - all of these were the same map but completely new mobs, bosses and lore. Dragonsoul and the CoT dungeons were only recycled in the sense that they took place in existing locations, but again, completely new in terms of functional playing. Firelands was all new except Rags, who again was a totally different fight than original Rags.

    I mean, I'm not going to laud the expansion as a pillar of effort, but at lot of these criticisms are using a way extreme definition of "recycled."


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  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    You've seen "old timers" quit in every expansion. And DS might have seemed lazy, but it honestly wasn't, it made perfect sense storywise for it to take place the places it did.
    For the location, a bit, yes. However, in terms of story, the majority of the fights came from, well, no where, and most were "stack and burn boss" sorta fights.

    For instance, lets take the previous raid, Firelands. We had a full zone dedicated to fending off the forces of Ragnaros. Hyjal was an excellent lead-up to Ragnaros himself. Heck, even the Throne of the Four Winds bosses had more background lore behind the bosses then DS did. For DS, the only 2 bosses that didn't come from nowhere was Deathwing, and even then, the fights themselves was repetitive and boring. No uber phase changing, no special mechanics, just stack, kill things, move up, stack, kill things, move up, or stack, kill things, move to next platform. DW exploding into a thousand tiny stars was pretty lame compared to, say, the LK ending. And there was the fact that, the entire DW fight wasn't us fighting deathwing, but a bunch of adds.

    Hrmm, also, lets take ICC. While you could replace Marrowgar, Valithria Dreamwalker, that she-lich, with any random generic mob and do fine, the Saurfang fight, Sindragosa fight, and, of course, the LK fight, AREN'T replaceable- if you removed these fights, you remove a lot from the lore/feel of ICC. For DS, you could replace any single boss with something else, and it wouldn't have made a difference.

    DS was crummy for 5 simple reasons : Extremely repetitive fight mechanics, Very poor lore on bosses, poorly done end-boss fight, being far too short, and being out for such a long time. ICC was out for longer, but was much better because A) The fights were many, varied, and diverse, B) there was a good amount of lore in ICC itself, and C) they made RS when ICC was beggining to flag out, thus giving players a wee bit of breather (Granted, it didn't last very long, maybe 3 lockouts, and its now forgotten, but a breather is a breather)
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
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  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    We're using "recyled" pretty loosely here. ZA is really the only one that belongs on this list.

    Almost all the others were minimal reuse - a single name, lore figure, location, or map. As far as actual gameplay, they were wildly different. Nothing about BWD was the same as BWL except that it took place in the same zone and the final boss was the same figure in lore (but the fight was radically different). SFK, Deadmines, ZG, etc - all of these were the same map but completely new mobs, bosses and lore. Dragonsoul and the CoT dungeons were only recycled in the sense that they took place in existing locations, but again, completely new in terms of functional playing. Firelands was all new except Rags, who again was a totally different fight than original Rags.

    I mean, I'm not going to laud the expansion as a pillar of effort, but at lot of these criticisms are using a way extreme definition of "recycled."
    I probably don't need to explain this to you, but the average person bitching about recycled content is so shallow that they cannot differentiate between Ragnaros in Molten Core and Ragnaros in Firelands. They see the same name and that's it for them, it's the same fight as far as they're concerned. Indeed, the whole instance becomes "recycled" just because that one name.

    I mean, look at how many people call the 6th fight in DS "Lootship 2.0," despite the fact that the difficulty is in no way comparable (lootship was thus named due to its ease, after all) and the mechanics are in no way comparable (you don't jump to the other ship, fight nothing but adds, and engage in vehicle combat). But it takes place on a flying ship, so it's "lootship 2.0!"

    Oh, and Morchok is recycled because some other mob used his model. Same with the second and third bosses. They're "recycles" because we've seen their model before. GENIUS!

    Quite frankly, every time I see a post like the one you quoted, I get a strong urge to flame so hard that I get banned. I've indulged before and I'm sure I will again. Either way, your average "recycled!" poster is nothing more than a complete moron and I really wish they'd find another game to play, because all they do is infect other players with their idiotic, unobjective opinions. They sow the seeds of hate and stupidity. And once they've done that, they abandon the thread and never explain themselves because, honestly, they can't.
    Last edited by Belloc; 2013-05-01 at 08:07 PM.
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  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azureqt View Post
    Nearly ALL the PvE content was recycled... I can list it for you...

    Dragon Soul (Raid)
    Firelands (Raid)
    Blackwing Lair (Raid)

    Deadmines (5 Man)
    Shadowfang Keep (5 Man)
    Zul'Farrak (LOL 5 Man)
    Zul'Aman (LOL 5 Man)
    End Time (5 man)
    Hour of Twilight (5 man)

    And I personally felt PvP was completely ignored in every aspect, even with reasonable feedback from the better players of the community.

    It was an okay expansion at best, but it was a VERY lazy expansion. That Worgen city is so awesome... they need to turn it into something.
    You might want to actually bother to learn what recycled means....

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  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    You might want to actually bother to learn what recycled means....
    Naxxramas (lvl 80) is the prime example of what '' Recycled content '' is.
    *Waiting for Artifact Knowledge work orders*

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    For the location, a bit, yes. However, in terms of story, the majority of the fights came from, well, no where, and most were "stack and burn boss" sorta fights.
    From nowhere?

    The first boss was an earth elemental. Deathwing is the Earth Warder and earth elementals are in his domain.

    The next two bosses are Old God minions, and, as we all know, Deathwing is Old God corrupted (aka, another one of their minions). We see their minions attacking the tower -- it's pretty clear that the Old Gods supplied them as aid for Deathwing's assault.

    Hagara might not initially appear to have any relation, but it should be pretty obvious that she's related to the Old God cultists (Twilight's Hammer?) in some way.

    Ultraxion was Deathwing's creation and was intended to be the harbinger of the end ("Hour of Twilight").

    Warmaster (or Warbringer, or whatever... I can't remember his name) was the leader of Deathwing's elite guard. Perfect sense, lore wise.

    So, really, the only boss that doesn't have an obvious fit is Hagara. The rest of them make perfect sense as far as lore goes.


    I'd also like to point out that very few fights were as simple as "stack and burn". Morchok heroic was a pretty movement/position heavy fight (even though it was easy). Bouncy Ball boss involved two groups stacked and then everyone repositioning/moving for a while. The other Old God boss involved both stacking and spreading, depending on which adds you killed. Hagara required somewhat strict positioning, none of which involved "stacking," with the only exception being non-runners during the lightning phase. Ultraxion was a Patchwerk style fight, so I can't really argue on that one. "Lootship 2.0" required regular HEAVY spreading, only stacking for one ability. Spine could work either way, so I'm going to count that one out. Madness involved regular spreading for tentacle crushes, stacking for AOEs, lots of movement. In other words, it was an all around fight.

    All of that was just off the top of my head. My point? You clearly don't remember the fights as well as you think you do. You don't remember the mechanics. And if you don't think the bosses made sense from a lore standpoint, then you didn't put any thought into them.
    Last edited by Belloc; 2013-05-01 at 08:22 PM.
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  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winkleslob View Post
    Naxxramas (lvl 80) is the prime example of what '' Recycled content '' is.
    I'd say that ZA (lvl 85) is honestly, it had the same mechanics, same bosses (just a reskinned Zul'jin honestly) and the same loot visuals, Naxx 80 at least had different looking gear hah (models, not different colours).

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  8. #248
    High Overlord Deshow's Avatar
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    This is because cata is the worst expansion of wow followed only by mop. It sucked the soul out of this game and it finally turned that dead beaten up horse full of tired cliqes into a pile of mush. It destroyed faith in nearly everyone. Even I and many hardcore warcraft fans began to doubt the game. There was a time when I was a proud defender of the game but now I just cannot do it anymore. It ruined the game and replaced the young to middle age hardcore player base with grannies(no really there were a few in my guild) and scene kids. Not to mention the oversimplification of talent trees and gameplay that it paved the way for. The entire expansion was pretty much designed for casual alt players who just wanted to collect them all. It also killed a lot of good servers, including mine. Now in order to pug and get the feel of actually playing in an mmo I have to pay 25 dollars for a server transfer. It just doesnt seem fair. Blizzard failed yet the customers have to pay the price.

  9. #249
    I have mostly the same opinion as the OP. It's not that I didn't like Cataclysm, because I can honestly say I enjoyed it. It just doesn't rank up there with TBC or Wrath of the Lich King to me.

    I didn't like Dragon Soul that much though. Some of the encounters were cool the first few times I did them (Spine, Madness, etc), but that place got old REALLY fast.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Deshow View Post
    Now in order to pug and get the feel of actually playing in an mmo I have to pay 25 dollars for a server transfer. It just doesnt seem fair. Blizzard failed yet the customers have to pay the price.
    Or you could cross-realm raid. I do it on a pretty regular basis. The only raid you cannot do cross-realm is ToT and I get the feeling that you're probably not at that level anyway. So, instead of complaining that you can't do something, maybe go to openraid.us/.eu and realize that you can, in fact, do it?
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  11. #251
    Horrible story that had horde bias...

  12. #252
    High Overlord Deshow's Avatar
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    I actually quit sometime around 4.4 the only thing that drew my interest is some rumours about the next expansion. I havnt even resubbed yet(on mop trail) but from what I see so far, its not looking to good. I didnt know you can cross realm raid now, but its irevelent. I was talking about the feel of the game. pre-cata i used to walk around sw or dalaran and it was packed, tradechat booming with jokes, fun and life. Having a lot of players present really gave the feel that your part of something bigger then yourself.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac2 View Post
    Every poll and thread here where expansions are compared, Cata gets worst opinions or close to it.

    Im really interested why ppl didnt like Cata.

    For me, Cata wasnt best expansion (wotlk and tbc are), but still, I cant say it was bad. It had great 5-man heroics (loved DM prenerf), we got old world flying, rewamp of old world zones.
    Only bad thing were raids, DS in particular, maybe cos it lasted too long.

    What do you think?
    Because it lacked a soul, pretty much. It felt like the last season of a TV show you loved in the beginning, but just got more blurier and blurier than the time came.
    It felt like it was this one desperate last attemt from Blizz side to keep everyone happy, and it failed just to hard.

    Cata was fun, in the beginning. But the raids werent. The social aspects of the game began falling apart when LFR drowed by, and when everyone kept leveling up their own guild to 25 so the majoroty of guilds were no longer a pack of friends and player enjoying the game together, than it was a random social, level up for perks guild.
    (is still many great and tho serious guilds out there, but you get the picture - right)

    Raids were torn out with the roots little by little, and the shared lockout for 25 and 10 player raids was just the last nail in the coffin. Because when we had 25 player raids, we still missed the 40 mans raids. It had something todo with working together as a team or a group to get that final boss down.

    And when this sort of game become something you can do totaly solo, just log in and que for a LFR - hope for some gear and then you done. Well then it become boring in the end. What more to stretch for?
    I dount the majority of the people do raid, but I think the majoroty of those who raid is the one who is willing to spend the most time and effort into the game aswell.

    Cata felt for me like a endless waiting line when we all were camping in Org/SW. Where everyone could just go get their epic gear anyways.
    That must have been a damn shame to the ones who was willing to spend much time before to get just that.

    I raided in Wrath, totaly stopped in Cata. And never dared myself into the grounds of raiding again, not even now in MOP.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    2nd. heroic dungeons were to easy (just like wrath).
    Excuse me, sir but:

    1.- You're a liar
    2.- You didn't play Cata's HC dungeons AT THE BEGINNING before the massive nerf. I did. And it was p-a-i-n-f-u-l.

    Why it was painful?: because we pass from the AOE grindfest of WOTLK dungeons to 'things' like 'Crowd Control', 'Stuns', 'Polymorph', 'Saps', etc, etc. 'Things' that nearly 90% of the friggin' players had forgotten.

  15. #255
    Herald of the Titans Murderdoll's Avatar
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    Cataclysm, was by Blizzards own admissions (maybe not in words but definitely in actions) was an example of what not to do.

    They have admitted that they spent far to much time on the old world, content that a fraction of the player base went and did and in turn neglected the 80-85 world.

    Dungeons, a lot of people enjoyed the difficult heroics a lot didnt. Blizzard said there would be a tough love approach and people should learn to play. They immediately backflipped and dungeons returned to the AoE fest of old.

    Raids, T11 was fantastic. T12 while the raid itself was good, its length proved to be its downfall. A 7 boss raid tier doesnt last long. What did they do next? They spat out Dragon Soul. A raid that did the impossible. Made us forget about ToC. From completely unengaging mechanics, minimalistic trash so we went from Boss to Boss. An extremely small final raid tier and horrible difficulty ramp up. Normal modes were an absolute joke. Most half competent guilds finished normal mode in its first week. Then heroic was a complete smash in the face. A lot of guilds had the choice of either be absolutely bored to tears in normal modes or be to challenged for heroics. We took a a month or so in normals getting everyone geared before we went to heroics but by the time we got there we didnt want to see the place anymore. We were so utterly bored of Dragon Soul and we werent the only ones. There is always a drop off towards the end of the expansion, but this drop off was the biggest ive seen.

    Not only that, but we fought a boss that we really didnt care to much about. A lot of people didnt have the same ties they did to Arthas, Illidan or Kael etc. A lot of people saw loot pinata.

    I think like the old world, LFR drained so much from the Dragon Soul development and it showed.

    Overall the expansion was boring. For the first time I actually leveled more alts and I hate leveling. I just had nothing to do.

    Look at MoP - theyve addressed so many issues we had in Cata. The 85-90 world is AMAZING. There is almost to much to do at level 90. Raids so far have been absolutely amazing. Difficult enough to stretch out. Long enough to feel epic. Amazing story. Dungeons are still the AoE fest but we have other options to feel challenged.
    Last edited by Murderdoll; 2013-05-01 at 10:49 PM.

  16. #256
    Cata was great, but could have been so much more... Nothing is perfect. 4.1 and 4.3, and the Female Worgen, well there's no excuses for not bashing it a little bit then!
    *Waiting for Artifact Knowledge work orders*

  17. #257
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maniac2 View Post
    Every poll and thread here where expansions are compared, Cata gets worst opinions or close to it.

    Im really interested why ppl didnt like Cata.

    For me, Cata wasnt best expansion (wotlk and tbc are), but still, I cant say it was bad. It had great 5-man heroics (loved DM prenerf), we got old world flying, rewamp of old world zones.
    Only bad thing were raids, DS in particular, maybe cos it lasted too long.

    What do you think?
    Raiding was crap, questing was crap, gear looked like crap, the focused too much on old world not enough on end game...........I could go on, but I will say transmog was a good thing and even Ghostcrawler (sort of) admitted it was a bad expansion.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 11:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by trauma443 View Post
    Excuse me, sir but:

    1.- You're a liar
    2.- You didn't play Cata's HC dungeons AT THE BEGINNING before the massive nerf. I did. And it was p-a-i-n-f-u-l.

    Why it was painful?: because we pass from the AOE grindfest of WOTLK dungeons to 'things' like 'Crowd Control', 'Stuns', 'Polymorph', 'Saps', etc, etc. 'Things' that nearly 90% of the friggin' players had forgotten.
    They didn't forget, all the good players who remembered (a lot anyway) left.

  18. #258
    Dreadlord Trollfat's Avatar
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    Start of the expansion:
    -Disconnected 80-85 zones made people hang out in Org/SW all day
    -Horrible class balance
    -New heroic 5 mans were so much harder that it shocked a lot of people.
    -HUGE barrier of entry for raids. Wrath babies who were used to pugging ICC-25 man every week were wiping consistently on Magmaw. lots of guilds broken up here

    5.1
    -The two troll heroics, while fun for a while, were far too long and monotonous. They were the only relevant 5 man content for many months, which burnt out a lot of players. This is b/c they were the best way to get valor and the 353 epics bridged the gap for struggling raiders

    5.2
    -Firelands, an 8 boss raid, was very poor (except for Ragnaros). By far the worst raid released since ToC
    -A HUGE normal mode nerf to T11 upset a lot of players

    5.3
    -Just when raiders thought it couldn't get any worse, it did. Dragon soul=worst raid ever released.
    -Deathwing was a tremendous disappointment
    -Every 3 weeks or so Blizz nerfed DS by 5%, up until 35% i believe. This invalidated most mechanics in the instance and ruined any sense of progression for a lot of players. The raid, which wasn't great to begin with, was devalued over time. More players than EVER cleared Heroic Deathwing.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by trauma443 View Post
    Excuse me, sir but:

    1.- You're a liar
    2.- You didn't play Cata's HC dungeons AT THE BEGINNING before the massive nerf. I did. And it was p-a-i-n-f-u-l.

    Why it was painful?: because we pass from the AOE grindfest of WOTLK dungeons to 'things' like 'Crowd Control', 'Stuns', 'Polymorph', 'Saps', etc, etc. 'Things' that nearly 90% of the friggin' players had forgotten.

    As a tank who was thouroughly familiar with such concepts as LOS, and CC, having learned them through B.C. no, actually they wre not painful, and within a few weeks of raiding CC was no longer needed.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  20. #260
    The heroic dungeons in the beginning of cata were still easy, it just required you to actually think now instead of mindlessly AOE trash.

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