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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    so you have played and geared your toon-now you have a slight edge over a new player.whats the problem?you said it yourself that you GEARED your own toon up.
    The definition of "a slight edge" you are working with.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nopkplease View Post
    The hole in the story here is that Blizzard is nerfing PvP power to reduce the gear gap, but if you compare the honor Malevolent set vs the Conquest Tyrannical set, the honor gear actually has more PvP power on it to help balance it against its base stats since they reduced it's item lvl early on.

    All this is going to do is further create a gear gap for people getting a late start or alts. Maybe they need to increase the item lvl back up again on the honor gear to offset the pvp power loss since base stats are going to be so much more valuable now.
    They can't do that, otherwise PvP gear would be viable for PvE and we can't have that. Thing is, they're not really trying to close the gap between PvP gear tiers but between PvP and PvE gear. As of now several PvE pieces are better for PvP (rated) and PvE gear flat out better for world pvp than actual PvP gear. They're pretty much demoting PvP to something PvE players can hop into on the side and be just as good or even better geared for as PvPers, like pet battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by DisposableHero View Post
    The definition of "a slight edge" you are working with.
    Not really. Where's my close for the gear gap when PvEing? Will my gear be scaled up in ToT or will the PvE people's heroic thunderforged be scaled down so I can participate anyway? No? Why not?

  3. #23
    They want to keep that "carrot on a stick" for PvPers so that's what the gear is for. Part of the fun PvPers have is getting new gear and entering a BG feeling stronger.

    The only problem I had with the PVP gear grind is when you want to RBG in the middle of the season.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    so you have played and geared your toon-now you have a slight edge over a new player.whats the problem?you said it yourself that you GEARED your own toon up.
    Slight...? Really? When you're getting farmed by tyrannical geared players there's no competition. A gladiator player in full malevolent won't be able to make it past 2.2k simply because of the gear discrepancy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 04:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    They can't do that, otherwise PvP gear would be viable for PvE and we can't have that. Thing is, they're not really trying to close the gap between PvP gear tiers but between PvP and PvE gear. As of now several PvE pieces are better for PvP (rated) and PvE gear flat out better for world pvp than actual PvP gear. They're pretty much demoting PvP to something PvE players can hop into on the side and be just as good or even better geared for as PvPers, like pet battles.


    Not really. Where's my close for the gear gap when PvEing? Will my gear be scaled up in ToT or will the PvE people's heroic thunderforged be scaled down so I can participate anyway? No? Why not?
    Because PvP and PvE aren't in any way the same thing? How many times has this argument been made and how many times has it been refuted? You play PvP to compete with players. Your sense of progression comes from beating new and better players. In PvE you beat computers, your sense of progression comes from getting the gear necessary to beat new bosses.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
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  5. #25
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    OP what game are you playing? The one I am playing has me completely destroying any new 90 in crafted gear on my Warrior or DK without any real chance for them to do anything but die.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Because PvP and PvE aren't in any way the same thing? How many times has this argument been made and how many times has it been refuted? You play PvP to compete with players. Your sense of progression comes from beating new and better players. In PvE you beat computers, your sense of progression comes from getting the gear necessary to beat new bosses.
    No. Just plain no. You don't get to "refute" an argument without actually having anything to hold against it. Let's see. "Your sense of progressions comes from beating new and harder bosses, competing for world rankings and climbing up the ladder. Gear should be secondary, everyone should have the same chances and starting position.".
    The problem about your argument is that it is a very hollow one, one that can be easily used on PvE aswell.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    No. Just plain no. You don't get to "refute" an argument without actually having anything to hold against it. Let's see. "Your sense of progressions comes from beating new and harder bosses, competing for world rankings and climbing up the ladder. Gear should be secondary, everyone should have the same chances and starting position.".
    The problem about your argument is that it is a very hollow one, one that can be easily used on PvE aswell.
    The premise of my argument is that PvP and PvE are NOT the same thing. At all. Yes they're both within the context of WoW but the playerbase in each seek two very different things. Players who ENJOY PvP do it to challenge themselves against other players. It's the PvE'ers who find an easier/quicker avenue for gearing who end up making the argument for gear progression in PvE. If you're doing PvP for gear progression and to roflstomp undergeared players then you simply don't enjoy the kind of PvP that Blizzard has been attempting to provide for the pas 7 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  8. #28
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    OP what game are you playing? The one I am playing has me completely destroying any new 90 in crafted gear on my Warrior or DK without any real chance for them to do anything but die.
    This. I've hit people in full honor gear in arenas on my boomkin, hunter, WW, and Ret all for enough to kill them in 3-4 seconds if I'm not CC'd, burst cooldowns or not. Until ~64% resil, if you don't have a healer, you're going to pretty much explode.

    Hell, I just got hit by an 124k Eviscerate from a sub rogue while tabbed out writing this post in Shrine on my WW, who is 484 item level, almost half tyrannical, half 476 while writing this post.

    Just imagine if I had even less resilience and health than I do, at around ~67.2% and 380k without fort.
    Last edited by Valedus; 2013-05-01 at 06:40 AM.

  9. #29
    sounds like my rogue is in for a cun couple of weeks getting killed repeatedly once I hit 90 and start to gear up... lol

  10. #30
    I am Murloc! Baracuda's Avatar
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    I think you'll have a better chance in 5.3 but as of now someone in full dreadful gear would be raped in seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbarh View Post
    may i suggest you check out wowwiki or any similar site, it's Grom that orders the murder of Cairne

  11. #31
    PvP power was a really bad idea. The huge exponential increase in item level between tiers is the real problem here, and PvP power just makes a huge divide between pve and pvp gear, and also makes gearing up horrible. In addition it also makes part-time PvP very difficult and unenjoyable, because as soon as you're behind the curve, you're at a gear disadvantage.

    PvP gear should be similar to PvE gear but with much bigger stamina stat at the cost of primary stats, but with resilience taking the place of a secondary stat on some items, and you should be able to reforge into resilience. PvP power needs to be removed.

    If you could reforge into resilience, then you could take your pve gear and reforge it and at least stand a chance. Same with PvP gear, you'd be able to go into a raid and at least have the hit cap by reforging your resi to hit.

    Seems mad to me that you can't do that. Why further divide the playerbase? Just makes it impossible for people like me who used to really enjoy pvp to play it because as soon as I take a week off, I'm behind the curve. TBC was pvp at its best because the gear was available to all, and it wasn't absurdly unviable in pve and pve gear wasn't absurdly unviable in pvp. There was a nice crossover.

  12. #32
    Not one response here was quite to the point. The problem of gear gap created one thing, and one thing only which is pvp gear UPGRADES. The thing is even if you farm full 476 gear you are immensive 15 ilvls behind the 491 upgraded gear, which wasnt the case in last seasons. Even though you have slightly more ressil and pvp power, the main stat and stamina difference is just huge, and doesnt make up for it at all.

    And Blizzard as well as everyone thinks, that if you start to play in new season, you shouldnt have to also play the last one in order to be competitive, you catch up with new honor gear, and you should be at same ilvl as last season gear. However this is not the case so it is obviously getting changed.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    The premise of my argument is that PvP and PvE are NOT the same thing. At all. Yes they're both within the context of WoW but the playerbase in each seek two very different things. Players who ENJOY PvP do it to challenge themselves against other players. It's the PvE'ers who find an easier/quicker avenue for gearing who end up making the argument for gear progression in PvE. If you're doing PvP for gear progression and to roflstomp undergeared players then you simply don't enjoy the kind of PvP that Blizzard has been attempting to provide for the pas 7 years.
    The problem with your argument is that it isn't, even in the most lenient terms, a refutation of Deleth's argument.

    First, you start off by pointing out that PvP and PvE are different. This does not address Deleth's argument at all. Second, you move onto PvP progression vs. PvE progression, which comes close but still does not actually attack the point Deleth was making. The third part of your argument is just baseless assumptions and smearing your opponent.

    Let me put it this way: How does anything you've posted demonstrate that Deleth is wrong to suggest that the objective is not to close the gap between PvP tiers, but between PvE gear and PvP gear (in such a way as to make PvE-geared players more competitive against PvP players)? So far, nothing you've said has even attempted to disprove that assertion.
    #GamerGate has as much to do with misogyny and hatred as atheism has to do with the Big Bang Theory - belief in the BBT is completely separate to the assertion that there is no conclusive proof that any god exists. #GamerGate is about ethics in video game journalism. Misogyny is an optional extra of a vocal minority.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Your last point doesn't make any sense... that's how the game is right now. How many MM and Surv hunters do you see? How many fury warriors do you see? How many Arcane and Fire Mages do you see?

    And your first point... they are nerfing the top tier classes. They haven't hit mages yet (surprise surprise), but they are hitting Spriests, hunters, and rogues. Also... their change with the item level ceiling is already going to make respective gear sets best for their environments... so I'm not even sure what you are complaining about?
    no thats not how the game is atm-blizz trys to make every spec viable for pvp and thats where the problems start.GC has said it many times himself,the game would be better balanced if they went back to pvp and pve spec "like i said".but doing so would create problems because not every one wants to play "arms/frost" in pvp.

    2nd -its like you said.where the mage nerfs?rogues are not getting nerfed any where near what warriors got since the start of mop.also your comment about gear being best for its setting type is a load of crap.no not all pvp gera will be best for pvp.pvp come sin 2 forms,instanced,world, and dules.the only place that pvp gear MIGHT be best is instanced,that = broken.its easy as shit to get pvp gear as is,this new idea blizz is trying out is only a cop-out like i said.

    if anything blizz should copy rifts pvp gear system.everyone is boosted to full tier 1 set in instanced pvp.a player has to buy a piece of gear if he wants to upgrade that piece with the next tier pice.if give player who actually play there toon a edge if they gear it fully and it keep pve gear out of pvp.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 09:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Slight...? Really? When you're getting farmed by tyrannical geared players there's no competition. A gladiator player in full malevolent won't be able to make it past 2.2k simply because of the gear discrepancy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 04:33 AM ----------



    Because PvP and PvE aren't in any way the same thing? How many times has this argument been made and how many times has it been refuted? You play PvP to compete with players. Your sense of progression comes from beating new and better players. In PvE you beat computers, your sense of progression comes from getting the gear necessary to beat new bosses.
    now tell me how broken/gutted warriors are in pvp and even pve "because you stated that many many times".so how can one "compete" with the top player/specs if your on a under powered toon regardless or gear?thats proves my point for me,gear and earning that gear is not a probelm,the classes and specs are.blizz is doing this gear scaling crap as a cop out to hide the real issues in the shit hole they call pvp.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 09:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    This. I've hit people in full honor gear in arenas on my boomkin, hunter, WW, and Ret all for enough to kill them in 3-4 seconds if I'm not CC'd, burst cooldowns or not. Until ~64% resil, if you don't have a healer, you're going to pretty much explode.

    Hell, I just got hit by an 124k Eviscerate from a sub rogue while tabbed out writing this post in Shrine on my WW, who is 484 item level, almost half tyrannical, half 476 while writing this post.

    Just imagine if I had even less resilience and health than I do, at around ~67.2% and 380k without fort.
    that you for proving my point for me .there are far more serious issues in wows pvp then gear,you just said it your self.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 09:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Inahu View Post
    The problem with your argument is that it isn't, even in the most lenient terms, a refutation of Deleth's argument.

    First, you start off by pointing out that PvP and PvE are different. This does not address Deleth's argument at all. Second, you move onto PvP progression vs. PvE progression, which comes close but still does not actually attack the point Deleth was making. The third part of your argument is just baseless assumptions and smearing your opponent.

    Let me put it this way: How does anything you've posted demonstrate that Deleth is wrong to suggest that the objective is not to close the gap between PvP tiers, but between PvE gear and PvP gear (in such a way as to make PvE-geared players more competitive against PvP players)? So far, nothing you've said has even attempted to disprove that assertion.
    your 100% right-all i have seen from blizz is that they want to get more people into pvp.they never said they want to improve pvp for pvpers,but rather get more people into pvp.its all just smoke and mirrors.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Inahu View Post
    The problem with your argument is that it isn't, even in the most lenient terms, a refutation of Deleth's argument.

    First, you start off by pointing out that PvP and PvE are different. This does not address Deleth's argument at all. Second, you move onto PvP progression vs. PvE progression, which comes close but still does not actually attack the point Deleth was making. The third part of your argument is just baseless assumptions and smearing your opponent.

    Let me put it this way: How does anything you've posted demonstrate that Deleth is wrong to suggest that the objective is not to close the gap between PvP tiers, but between PvE gear and PvP gear (in such a way as to make PvE-geared players more competitive against PvP players)? So far, nothing you've said has even attempted to disprove that assertion.
    I have no idea who Flaks is, but my limited time on the forums I'm quite familiar with Deleth and his/her "arguments". He creates strawmans for himself involved around "prove" that the devs are "liars" and rudely dismisses anyone who doesn't share his opinion on the subject as being "wrong". Take this thread for example, it is entirely about gearing up someone in PvP gear, but he wants to bring it back to scaling gear for PvE which is not what it's remotely about. His argument is completely baseless, yet he (and you apparently) get to say that anyone who disagrees with him is wrong. It's silly to be honest. It's like if I made a value judgement about who the best baseball player of all time is, or what's the best movie of 2012, and shouted down anyone who has a different opinion.

    The developers have made it quiet clear that they want to want to make it much easier to get into PvP, and right now that is very difficult for two sets of players 1) New 90s or 2) Established 90s with only PvE gear. If you dispute this (as it appears you are doing), then you either haven't been listening to what they've been saying or have chosen to completely ignore it. You ignoring what the devs have been saying doesn't "prove" that Deleth is right or Flaks is wrong.

    In 5.3 they are attempting to solve this problem by giving everyone a much higher base defense, but by doing so they realized that PvE gear would be ridiculously overpowered, so they added the iLevel scaling to pull it back and they upped the amount of PvP power on gear but lowered it's relative effectiveness. So you need more PvP Power to do damage which effectively nerfs PvP Power Gems which eliminates (or greatly reduces) the possibility of some PvE geared player gemming with PvP Power and being effective.

    What Deleth doesn't seem to get is PvE is a completely different type of game, where as gear progress has been shown to be important to a vast majority of the player base, but they have also tried the same thing with Challenge Mode and frankly it just hasn't been that successful. Players in PvE want gear progression, the overwhelming majority of players don't want it for PvP. Deleth comparing that to Pet Battles is not only silly, it's inaccurate because Pet Battles are all about progression, the complete opposite.

    In PvP, despite a small minority, most players have expressed that they are happy with this change for the very reasons Flaks has stated. Again, if you choose to not believe that, that's fine, but you won't get much traction since while people might not be thrill with how Blizzard is going about 5.3, they are okay with the why they are doing it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 09:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    now tell me how broken/gutted warriors are in pvp and even pve "because you stated that many many times".so how can one "compete" with the top player/specs if your on a under powered toon regardless or gear?thats proves my point for me,gear and earning that gear is not a probelm,the classes and specs are.blizz is doing this gear scaling crap as a cop out to hide the real issues in the shit hole they call pvp.
    Seriously, Warriors have it bad in 5.2 and the sky is falling. I have a Warrior, I love my Warrior, and yes right now they aren't nearly as powerful as Rogues, but in 5.1 they dominated and I don't mean by a little, I mean by a lot. Rogues do in 5.2 (but not to the same degree as Warriors in 5.1), with nerfs coming to Rogues in 5.3 and buffs coming to Warriors, that will likely even out.

    For right or wrong, Blizzard continues to evolve the game, and doing so new imbalances emerge. What's odd is for every class that is down, another is up yet I never read about complaints from the classes that are "up", just the ones that are down.

    Quote Originally Posted by meathead
    that you for proving my point for me .there are far more serious issues in wows pvp then gear,you just said it your self.
    By all accounts, burst is down on the PTR for 5.3.

  16. #36
    Thing is that this expansion they gave everyone baseline resilience even if you have no pvp gear at all, which was supposed to help new players just starting in pvp. Yet somehow they managed to screw this up with the way resilience scales, having 40-50% resil now is like having zero resilience last expansion.

    What blizzard needs to do is balance what we already have rather than constantly change everything every patch and still have things not work the way they should.

  17. #37
    Epic! dacoolist's Avatar
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    Gear/Spec/Chants/Gems/Professions are a huge player in PVP.

    Most people think PVP is like PVE - It's not. Stepping into a Random BG right now with just ungemmed/unchanted/terrible spec - crafted Dread = Owned

    It seems that lowbies that walk into BG's now without people helping just get trained.. But honestly.. It's always been this way, It WASN'T any different in TBC..

  18. #38
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    I decided to do some 2V2 with a guildie because, hey why not? But I have no PVP gear, and since Arena shows spec my Holydin got focused/stunned/CC'd until I died faster than I could believe. I checked the AH for PvP crafted gear and borrowed 5k from guild and bought blue pvp gear and gems. This caused my resil to shoot up 18-19% to ~58-59%. I could now survive long enough to let my partner peel them off me.

    Does no one see the issue with that? This late in the Xpac if you never built up a bank of gold, because you will not find pvp gear for sub 1k almost 80% of the time on the AH, and never got honor pvp gear, you either have to grind through BGs getting your ass kicked to scrape up honor, or find a guildie who has all the required pvp recipes as well as the mats.

    If it wasn't for my guild having coffers overflowing with gold, not really, but thanks to the guild perks and other instant gold for guild we still have a rather large abundance, I would have just stopped PvPing until something changed, like the gear reset at the beginning of a new Xpac.

  19. #39
    And this is why WoW is starting to feel lame . Your rewards , from grinding something or working hard to obtain something , don't matter at all...

    First we had the PvP Power stat making the PvE gear useless for PvP (compared to other expansion where you could roll with PvE and kill everything), and now even PvP gear itself looses its value ... The next step is to devalue all gems and enchants to the cheapest ones , so that people without any gold don't have a disadvandage compared to the guy who spend 5k on a dancing steel weapon enchant...

    Blizzard should also consider making PvP and BGs into MOBA style . Everyone gets in with the same gear etc...

    Its nice to see all the rpg elements getting thrown out of the window...

  20. #40
    The issue of price on the crafted gear can vary from server to server. The plate gear tends to cost more because blacksmiths only got to start doing their lightning steel cd...3 weeks ago, I think? I do not have a level 90 with BS, so I am not sure of the exact timeline. Meanwhile, tailors and LWers were popping their daily cd from the day 5.2 hit.

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