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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Ridesdel View Post
    I decided to do some 2V2 with a guildie because, hey why not? But I have no PVP gear, and since Arena shows spec my Holydin got focused/stunned/CC'd until I died faster than I could believe. I checked the AH for PvP crafted gear and borrowed 5k from guild and bought blue pvp gear and gems. This caused my resil to shoot up 18-19% to ~58-59%. I could now survive long enough to let my partner peel them off me.

    Does no one see the issue with that? This late in the Xpac if you never built up a bank of gold, because you will not find pvp gear for sub 1k almost 80% of the time on the AH, and never got honor pvp gear, you either have to grind through BGs getting your ass kicked to scrape up honor, or find a guildie who has all the required pvp recipes as well as the mats.

    If it wasn't for my guild having coffers overflowing with gold, not really, but thanks to the guild perks and other instant gold for guild we still have a rather large abundance, I would have just stopped PvPing until something changed, like the gear reset at the beginning of a new Xpac.
    Just questing gives a ridiculous amount of gold. So someone just hitting 90 will likely have a few thousand. I play on two servers, one high pop, one medium (although that is debatable), and most crafted PvP pieces were pretty cheap an the AH. I geared up two new 90s for about 1K gold each. You then do the 3 man "Ring of Blood" scenario to get a 450 weapon, and you actually are pretty good right off the bat. You'll still get destroyed if focused, but at least you aren't useless.

    Random BG'd until I could get some new pieces (plus I had all the Justice Points I'd earned while leveling in Dungens) that I converted over to Honor. All in all I was in full Tyrannical/Malevolent in under 1 day play time at 90.

    That could still be greatly improved, but compared to the old days 24 hrs is a blink of an eye.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 10:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pebamama View Post
    Blizzard should also consider making PvP and BGs into MOBA style . Everyone gets in with the same gear etc...
    I 100% agree...but wait, I have a feeling you aren't serious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pebamama View Post
    Its nice to see all the rpg elements getting thrown out of the window...
    Wait, so gear progress = RPG?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Ridesdel View Post
    Does no one see the issue with that? This late in the Xpac if you never built up a bank of gold, because you will not find pvp gear for sub 1k almost 80% of the time on the AH, and never got honor pvp gear, you either have to grind through BGs getting your ass kicked to scrape up honor, or find a guildie who has all the required pvp recipes as well as the mats.

    If it wasn't for my guild having coffers overflowing with gold, not really, but thanks to the guild perks and other instant gold for guild we still have a rather large abundance, I would have just stopped PvPing until something changed, like the gear reset at the beginning of a new Xpac.
    I've been doing crafting on my LW character. Right now, the crafted PvP pieces are typically going for less than 300g each, and the price is declining. There's a lot of supply and limited demand.

    Gold is very easy to get this expansion. I have 180,000g -- on my bank alt. Overall, I think I have in excess of 300,000g. It just accumulates. Doing the farm on a couple of characters can net you 1000g/day or more.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Siddown View Post
    I have no idea who Flaks is, but my limited time on the forums I'm quite familiar with Deleth and his/her "arguments". He creates strawmans for himself involved around "prove" that the devs are "liars" and rudely dismisses anyone who doesn't share his opinion on the subject as being "wrong". Take this thread for example, it is entirely about gearing up someone in PvP gear, but he wants to bring it back to scaling gear for PvE which is not what it's remotely about. His argument is completely baseless, yet he (and you apparently) get to say that anyone who disagrees with him is wrong. It's silly to be honest. It's like if I made a value judgement about who the best baseball player of all time is, or what's the best movie of 2012, and shouted down anyone who has a different opinion.
    The problem with "shouting down" some players is that their assumptions are wrong to begin with. I admit to reacting fairly hostile to a certain group of people, the often undergeared/unenchanted/ungemmed DPS who expect to down healers in an 1on1 who vastly outgear them spring to mind. And in all honesty, I feel justified in reacting the way I do since they react just as hostile if not even more so if someone disagrees with them.
    Flaks himself used his post to attack me, instead of actually properly refuting my argument, because for all purposes he can't.

    And no I am not exactly creating strawmen arguments, most of them are backed up by actual numbers as was the thread back before the ilevel scaling was introduced for example, that clearly showed that PvE gear in some spots wouldn't just be better but vastly so AND to top it off socketed right it would've had more PvP power.
    Yet people were screaming that PvP gear would be better, despite people from Arena Junkies already booking their tickets for heroic ToT raids to get some of the gear.

    The developers have made it quiet clear that they want to want to make it much easier to get into PvP, and right now that is very difficult for two sets of players 1) New 90s or 2) Established 90s with only PvE gear. If you dispute this (as it appears you are doing), then you either haven't been listening to what they've been saying or have chosen to completely ignore it. You ignoring what the devs have been saying doesn't "prove" that Deleth is right or Flaks is wrong.
    As you said before, there are two kind of people who're going to profit from this, none of them are actual PvP players and personaly I think that's a huge problem.

    1) New 90s. Some of these might actualy be PvP players, most of them aren't. Right now a great many PvE players are already leeching (there is no other word for this) their way through BG's often going afk or not contributing at all in order to inflate their ilevel score to be able to access the basic LFR.
    Yes there's also people actually interested in doing PvP, I've recently equipped my discipline priest who was still green geared before I started for example. But for those it isn't all that hard to actually get to a point where they can be somewhat useful. Ofc you're not instantly at the point where you can compete with everyone else, the question here since this is and always will be an RPG is if you should be.
    I've crafted the blue gear (my disc is tailor) and went for the honor gear and the catchup wasn't as bad as many people make it out to be and while being at a disadvantage in 476 gear you're still fairly competetive especially as a healer/caster who's a second row character.

    People who're already in 476 gear wont be profiting from this though, in fact it's going to end up hurting them and quite likely making PvE gear better than their equip. 476 gear is over inflated on PvP power and thus gets hit harder by this nerf than 496 PvP gear does. So how exactly is this helping them?

    2) PvE people. Explain to me exactly WHY it has to be made easier for them to come into PvP. Explain to me why PvP should cater to them instead of the actual PvP players. All doing so ends up is to demote PvP to something they can do on the side more akin to pet battle instead of a mayor part of the game in it's own right. And yes the whole fairness issue here comes into play.
    Because while they try to make it easier and easier for them to jump into PvP, the opposite does not hold true. Hardly any raid would bring an 493/6 PvP geared healer or dps along. But somehow this isn't seen as a problem, why?

    In 5.3 they are attempting to solve this problem by giving everyone a much higher base defense, but by doing so they realized that PvE gear would be ridiculously overpowered, so they added the iLevel scaling to pull it back and they upped the amount of PvP power on gear but lowered it's relative effectiveness. So you need more PvP Power to do damage which effectively nerfs PvP Power Gems which eliminates (or greatly reduces) the possibility of some PvE geared player gemming with PvP Power and being effective.
    You have two wrong assumptions here, the first one is assuming PvE gear wouldn't have been better previously already. The thunderforged and especially 2/2 gear not even to talk about heroic thunderforged flat out beat PvP gear for many classes in off pieces, often by a great margin. This forced them to react and introduce the ilevel cap.
    Secondly you assume people are going to gem PvP power, why would they? Most people, especially high rated gem straight resilience and this wont change in the future either. So by lowering the effectiveness of PvP power they only further tilted the balance in favor of resilience. This was pointed out as a problem before, hence the battle fatigue increase to 45% and the 100% PvP power buff for healers. Since it would've been far better for them to go with PvE pieces and socket straight resilience before.

    What Deleth doesn't seem to get is PvE is a completely different type of game, where as gear progress has been shown to be important to a vast majority of the player base, but they have also tried the same thing with Challenge Mode and frankly it just hasn't been that successful. Players in PvE want gear progression, the overwhelming majority of players don't want it for PvP. Deleth comparing that to Pet Battles is not only silly, it's inaccurate because Pet Battles are all about progression, the complete opposite.
    The problem is that a vocal minority, not the vast majority as you are trying to make yourself out to be, is keep spouting that. But every change introduced in that direction so far only ended up backfiring, often quite spectacularly so. As more as they remove progression and rewards from PvP as more the participation drops. You are arguing that progression in general is needed for everything, except for PvP.
    Fact is that many people do play competitively to progress in some way (ratings, gear and so on) and for bragging right rewards. Both of which are pretty much absent now in large parts thanks to you guys.

    You argue that PvE without gear progression wouldn't work, because apparently new titles, pets, mounts, transmog stuff, world rankings and so on wouldn't be enough of a incencetive for players to actually participate. Yet you're trying to convince us that nothing of these is required for players to do PvP, remember we don't even get pets or mounts, new titles or other bragging right or anything else that has nothing to do with PvP gear. You are for all purposes contradicting yourself.

    In PvP, despite a small minority, most players have expressed that they are happy with this change for the very reasons Flaks has stated. Again, if you choose to not believe that, that's fine, but you won't get much traction since while people might not be thrill with how Blizzard is going about 5.3, they are okay with the why they are doing it.
    You are generalizing and again making up some silent mayority to back up your arguments. These changes aren't in favor of PvP players who should be taken into account first when changing something, anything PvP wise. The problem is that many people don't seem to be able to really comprehend what these changes truly mean and see all of their consequences.

  4. #44
    Deleth,

    You don't react hostile, you initial hostility, including in the threads you start. Please don't paint yourself as the logical one speaking for the masses, because that simply isn't true. You don't post with any actual real numbers, you make them up to fit your pre-conceived notion of the game, and then claim they prove you are correct. You do it in every thread you can as long as it further pushes your agenda, which I honestly don't understand.

    I'm not going to go through every point because it's basically rambling on about how you are right and I am wrong despite it just being your opinion that can't be substantiated, but I'll respond to this one.

    2) PvE people. Explain to me exactly WHY it has to be made easier for them to come into PvP. Explain to me why PvP should cater to them instead of the actual PvP players. All doing so ends up is to demote PvP to something they can do on the side more akin to pet battle instead of a mayor part of the game in it's own right. And yes the whole fairness issue here comes into play.
    Because while they try to make it easier and easier for them to jump into PvP, the opposite does not hold true. Hardly any raid would bring an 493/6 PvP geared healer or dps along. But somehow this isn't seen as a problem, why?
    They want more people to PvP, it's as simple as that, again I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to grasp. Having more people play IS beneficial to PvP-ers as well, it broadens the pool of potential teammates (especially for people on low pop servers) and opponents, that can only be a good thing. As it stands now, anyone in full PvE gear is going to get destroyed in any BG (Rated or Normal) or Arena, even in Thunderforged Gear. Any decent player with BG Targets or Gladius knows who is geared/spec'd for PvP and who isn't. People in full PvE gear quickly focused and eliminated. This change lets those people at least survive, yet they will be dealing 30-40% less damage/healing.

    Which leads us back to PvE, again I'm really not sure why you are obsessed with this issue. It sounds like you just really want to be able to PvE in PvP gear. PvE is a completely different game that PvP, you can't accept that but that doesn't matter, because with 5.3 Blizzard has. PvE is also much more popular, which means they don't need encourage more people to do it. If PvP was more popular than PvE, they wouldn't be making this change.

    The reality is, you can claim that I don't speak for the silent majority and you might be right, but I can say the same thing about you. But, I can say that I seem to fall on Blizzard's side on this issue, and as much as you continue to thnk they are liars, I think they know a lot more about the player base than either you are I do.

  5. #45
    I really don't want my gear given to me. Part of why I play is because I like to grind out the gear. If everyone walked into PvP with the same gear it would kill a lot of the game. You have to have a reason to keep playing and spending your time in the game. If you don't have to grind you will get bore faster and prob quit the game faster. I don't thing grinding out PvP gear is really all that bad. I like the catch up system I think it will help out a lot.

  6. #46
    The silly part is, people won't even try to buy the crafted gear when they start, just charge in with their uber greens. And then wonder why they get torn to shreds instantly.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Siddown View Post
    I have no idea who Flaks is, but my limited time on the forums I'm quite familiar with Deleth and his/her "arguments". He creates strawmans for himself involved around "prove" that the devs are "liars" and rudely dismisses anyone who doesn't share his opinion on the subject as being "wrong". Take this thread for example, it is entirely about gearing up someone in PvP gear, but he wants to bring it back to scaling gear for PvE which is not what it's remotely about. His argument is completely baseless, yet he (and you apparently) get to say that anyone who disagrees with him is wrong. It's silly to be honest. It's like if I made a value judgement about who the best baseball player of all time is, or what's the best movie of 2012, and shouted down anyone who has a different opinion.

    The developers have made it quiet clear that they want to want to make it much easier to get into PvP, and right now that is very difficult for two sets of players 1) New 90s or 2) Established 90s with only PvE gear. If you dispute this (as it appears you are doing), then you either haven't been listening to what they've been saying or have chosen to completely ignore it. You ignoring what the devs have been saying doesn't "prove" that Deleth is right or Flaks is wrong.

    In 5.3 they are attempting to solve this problem by giving everyone a much higher base defense, but by doing so they realized that PvE gear would be ridiculously overpowered, so they added the iLevel scaling to pull it back and they upped the amount of PvP power on gear but lowered it's relative effectiveness. So you need more PvP Power to do damage which effectively nerfs PvP Power Gems which eliminates (or greatly reduces) the possibility of some PvE geared player gemming with PvP Power and being effective.

    What Deleth doesn't seem to get is PvE is a completely different type of game, where as gear progress has been shown to be important to a vast majority of the player base, but they have also tried the same thing with Challenge Mode and frankly it just hasn't been that successful. Players in PvE want gear progression, the overwhelming majority of players don't want it for PvP. Deleth comparing that to Pet Battles is not only silly, it's inaccurate because Pet Battles are all about progression, the complete opposite.

    In PvP, despite a small minority, most players have expressed that they are happy with this change for the very reasons Flaks has stated. Again, if you choose to not believe that, that's fine, but you won't get much traction since while people might not be thrill with how Blizzard is going about 5.3, they are okay with the why they are doing it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 09:34 AM ----------



    Seriously, Warriors have it bad in 5.2 and the sky is falling. I have a Warrior, I love my Warrior, and yes right now they aren't nearly as powerful as Rogues, but in 5.1 they dominated and I don't mean by a little, I mean by a lot. Rogues do in 5.2 (but not to the same degree as Warriors in 5.1), with nerfs coming to Rogues in 5.3 and buffs coming to Warriors, that will likely even out.

    For right or wrong, Blizzard continues to evolve the game, and doing so new imbalances emerge. What's odd is for every class that is down, another is up yet I never read about complaints from the classes that are "up", just the ones that are down.



    By all accounts, burst is down on the PTR for 5.3.
    "The developers have made it quiet clear that they want to want to make it much easier to get into PvP, and right now that is very difficult for two sets of players 1) New 90s or 2) Established 90s with only PvE gear. If you dispute this (as it appears you are doing), then you either haven't been listening to what they've been saying or have chosen to completely ignore it. You ignoring what the devs have been saying doesn't "prove" that Deleth is right or Flaks is wrong.

    pretty please tell me how getting a full honor set is hard?if you pvp at all you should have 4 k honor by the time you hit 90 and maxed out justice points to convert into honor.how is that hard to get that gear?a player thats just starting to "get" into pvp should not be at the same level as experienced pvpers skill wise or gear wise.if you think other wise,your wrong.every one likes to say wows a pve game right?so why not boost/gear scale everyone in raids/dungeon ect so people who do not pve can have a chance to enjoy/experience pve?you can try to spin it anyway you want,but when a pvp geared player is at a disadvantage against a pve geared player,when both met up when doing dailys on a pvp server=something is broken.

    "Seriously, Warriors have it bad in 5.2 and the sky is falling. I have a Warrior, I love my Warrior, and yes right now they aren't nearly as powerful as Rogues, but in 5.1 they dominated and I don't mean by a little, I mean by a lot. Rogues do in 5.2 (but not to the same degree as Warriors in 5.1), with nerfs coming to Rogues in 5.3 and buffs coming to Warriors, that will likely even out.

    For right or wrong, Blizzard continues to evolve the game, and doing so new imbalances emerge. What's odd is for every class that is down, another is up yet I never read about complaints from the classes that are "up", just the ones that are down."


    first off if i fell something is op'ed with warriors,i will agree with it being nerfed.check my past post you can see where i said this needed to be nerfed and that didn't.hell i got flamed for saying 2nd wind was fine,looks like i was right about.2nd-just becasue warriors were op'ed when mop started does not make it ok for them to be weaker then other classes are now on live.rogues facerolled in cata,had 1 "average" season now are back on top.warriors got shit on for about 1 1/2 years in cata,got a few month's of being op'ed in mop then got shit on again.hell even pve warriors ar not doing that well.wheres the fix?

    this shit is what im talking about-there is no balance in wow pvp at all.blizz never trys to fix the core problems,but rather just turn damage up or down or make dumb ass changes like "gear scaling" and then they say o look we are fixing pvp,lmfao.keep drinking the cool aid.and what this "evolve the game" bull shit your talking about?its the same old shit just different day.hell look at warriors,we got MS,op,SW,hamstring,= nothing new.why on earth cant they balance them out in pvp now after 7 years of wow.= because blizz is not trying to balance it the right ways,like i said its just smoke and mirrors.

  8. #48
    meathead, you've never ever EVER been one to ask for warrior nerfs. No, not even in 5.0. The premise of your posts has always been "yea stupid warriors, ask for warrior nerfs so we end up in 4.3". So don't come in with that lol. But that's not the point. Blizzard DOES want to balance PvP as can clearly be seen by the 5.3 PvP power changes. I can tell you right now without a shadow of a doubt that PvP is better in 5.3 than it has been since S8 ONLY BECAUSE BURST IS TONED DOWN. That's how big THAT problem was.

    Lower the gear between PvE and PvP players has two effects, both for good: 1. it allows players to switch into pvp as they wish without getting steamrolled and 2. it allows new players that have only questing (also considered pve) gear to not get steamrolled. How is this bad at all? And to anyone saying that pvp gear isn't viable for pve and that blizzard is only going one way with this...you would be utterly wrong because the entire premise of the MoP starting changes was to remove pvp stats from the ilvl table allowing the gear to compete in main stats with pve gear. I will admit though that how the the tiering was done was completely off and is this issue is being exacerbated by how pvp gear ilvl will remain low. The fixes for this are easy and I'm hoping against hope that Blizzard will listen to reason.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2013-05-01 at 05:31 PM.
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  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ridesdel View Post
    I decided to do some 2V2 with a guildie because, hey why not? But I have no PVP gear, and since Arena shows spec my Holydin got focused/stunned/CC'd until I died faster than I could believe. I checked the AH for PvP crafted gear and borrowed 5k from guild and bought blue pvp gear and gems. This caused my resil to shoot up 18-19% to ~58-59%. I could now survive long enough to let my partner peel them off me.

    Does no one see the issue with that? This late in the Xpac if you never built up a bank of gold, because you will not find pvp gear for sub 1k almost 80% of the time on the AH, and never got honor pvp gear, you either have to grind through BGs getting your ass kicked to scrape up honor, or find a guildie who has all the required pvp recipes as well as the mats.

    If it wasn't for my guild having coffers overflowing with gold, not really, but thanks to the guild perks and other instant gold for guild we still have a rather large abundance, I would have just stopped PvPing until something changed, like the gear reset at the beginning of a new Xpac.
    i going to have to call out the bull shit meter on this one,and heres why.first off you if had any interest in pvp at all you would be doing to while you leveled up and not wait this long until you started pvping.also did you even take the time to run bgs so you could GET PVP GEAR before you jumped into arena?you cant jump into end game pve without gearing up your tune first,right?2nd i started paying wow in BC,first mmo i played had no clue wtf i was doing.i tought myself how to pvp by getting my ass kicked in bgs by better more geared players.and remember back in BC a player had to have 1650 just to get new season gloves "casuals"any one.i played until the end of wrath and quit until the last season of cata.when i came back for that last season of cata i leveled up threw bgs on my ARMS WARRIOR "worst pvp class in game".once at 85 i started running 3's when i was still in some greens and honor gear with the level 81 BS crafted sword.took a day or two hit get full pvp gear and by that time my 3 team was close to 2k,we ran arms,dk, d-priest lmfao.is 2 k really high,no but its a decent rating with a f'ed up comp and bad gear.that just tells me that gears not the probelm in wow,its the classes and ability's and they are and will not be balanced or fixed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 01:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pebamama View Post
    And this is why WoW is starting to feel lame . Your rewards , from grinding something or working hard to obtain something , don't matter at all...

    First we had the PvP Power stat making the PvE gear useless for PvP (compared to other expansion where you could roll with PvE and kill everything), and now even PvP gear itself looses its value ... The next step is to devalue all gems and enchants to the cheapest ones , so that people without any gold don't have a disadvandage compared to the guy who spend 5k on a dancing steel weapon enchant...

    Blizzard should also consider making PvP and BGs into MOBA style . Everyone gets in with the same gear etc...

    Its nice to see all the rpg elements getting thrown out of the window...
    bingo!wow old community is pretty much all gone because the way the game has changed.all blizz is doing now is trying to "maintain" sub #'s to keep profits up until they have wow's replacement "titian" ready.this game use to be much much harder,hell they dont even have rating requirement son gear any more "i agree with that".so all one has to do is play your toon,put the time in and you can have the same gear as the top pvpers in the entire world.if thats to hard,then tough fing l2p.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 01:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazgrel View Post
    The issue of price on the crafted gear can vary from server to server. The plate gear tends to cost more because blacksmiths only got to start doing their lightning steel cd...3 weeks ago, I think? I do not have a level 90 with BS, so I am not sure of the exact timeline. Meanwhile, tailors and LWers were popping their daily cd from the day 5.2 hit.
    so how much does it cost and what does a new 90 have to do to get into end game pve?surly in a pve gear "lmfao" blizz should try to get everyone into pve,right?why no gear scale for pve?
    Last edited by meathead; 2013-05-01 at 05:41 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    i going to have to call out the bull shit meter on this one,and heres why.first off you if had any interest in pvp at all you would be doing to while you leveled up and not wait this long until you started pvping.2nd i started paying wow in BC,first mmo i played had no clue wtf i was doing.i tought myself how to pvp by getting my ass kicked in bgs by better more geared players.and remember back in BC a player had to have 1650 just to get new season gloves "casuals"any one.i played until the end of wrath and quit until the last season of cata.when i came back for that last season of cata i leveled up threw bgs on my ARMS WARRIOR "worst pvp class in game".once at 85 i started running 3's when i was still in some greens and honor gear with the level 81 BS crafted sword.took a day or two hit get full pvp gear and by that time my 3 team was close to 2k,we ran arms,dk, d-priest lmfao.is 2 k really high,no but its a decent rating with a f'ed up comp and bad gear.that just tells me that gears not the probelm in wow,its the classes and ability's and they are and will not be balanced or fixed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 01:35 PM ----------



    bingo!wow old community is pretty much all gone because the way the game has changed.all blizz is doing now is trying to "maintain" sub #'s to keep profits up until they have wow's replacement "titian" ready.this game use to be much much harder,hell they dont even have rating requirement son gear any more "i agree with that".so all one has to do is play your toon,put the time in and you can have the same gear as the top pvpers in the entire world.if thats to hard,then tough fing l2p.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 01:38 PM ----------



    so how much does it cost and what does a new 90 have to do to get into end game pve?surly in a pve gear "lmfao" blizz should try to get everyone into pve,right?why no gear scale for pve?
    I agree - you may be able to obtain the same gear as the top PVP'ers on Earth, but the fact is: What about the little 2200 only chants ^_-

    On another note, The "wow old community is pretty much all gone because the way the gamehas change." is more or less an incorrect statement. The game is 8.5 years old. You remember what game launched with World of Warcraft? Halo 2, you know - that game on the Original Xbox that's had it's servers offline for clear over 3.5 years.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    i going to have to call out the bull shit meter on this one,and heres why.first off you if had any interest in pvp at all you would be doing to while you leveled up and not wait this long until you started pvping.also did you even take the time to run bgs so you could GET PVP GEAR before you jumped into arena?you cant jump into end game pve without gearing up your tune first,right?2nd i started paying wow in BC,first mmo i played had no clue wtf i was doing.i tought myself how to pvp by getting my ass kicked in bgs by better more geared players.and remember back in BC a player had to have 1650 just to get new season gloves "casuals"any one.i played until the end of wrath and quit until the last season of cata.when i came back for that last season of cata i leveled up threw bgs on my ARMS WARRIOR "worst pvp class in game".once at 85 i started running 3's when i was still in some greens and honor gear with the level 81 BS crafted sword.took a day or two hit get full pvp gear and by that time my 3 team was close to 2k,we ran arms,dk, d-priest lmfao.is 2 k really high,no but its a decent rating with a f'ed up comp and bad gear.that just tells me that gears not the probelm in wow,its the classes and ability's and they are and will not be balanced or fixed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 01:35 PM ----------



    bingo!wow old community is pretty much all gone because the way the game has changed.all blizz is doing now is trying to "maintain" sub #'s to keep profits up until they have wow's replacement "titian" ready.this game use to be much much harder,hell they dont even have rating requirement son gear any more "i agree with that".so all one has to do is play your toon,put the time in and you can have the same gear as the top pvpers in the entire world.if thats to hard,then tough fing l2p.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 01:38 PM ----------



    so how much does it cost and what does a new 90 have to do to get into end game pve?surly in a pve gear "lmfao" blizz should try to get everyone into pve,right?why no gear scale for pve?
    Wow, this took me way too long to understand. It's like you puked out some random words and tried to make sense....

    But I got a few things; You're right in some parts, regardless of gear you should be able to stand ground in BG's.
    In Arena's without PVP gear you are basically a sitting duck. But here goes:
    Try to tank ToT in green gear, it won't really work out for you.
    Arena is a higher "tier" than BG's. In arena you can CAP but won't stand a chance vs the PvP geared players.
    Obviously this is the way the game should be played, pure mechanics.
    In 2vs2, or 3vs3 when you have no PVP gear and added reslience you should not stand a chance vs a full pvp geared player. And that's what PVP power does. It makes sure that your lack of PVP resilience hurts even more.

    I do not think your raidleader would like you to come in full PVP gear. Your arena partner will not like it when you come in full PVE gear.
    There is a reason it's separated and you basically just "deal" with it. Most PVP players are happy with the fact that PVP gear is actually better in PVP than PVE gear (Legendaries, trinkets etc)

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    i going to have to call out the bull shit meter on this one,and heres why.first off you if had any interest in pvp at all you would be doing to while you leveled up and not wait this long until you started pvping.2nd i started paying wow in BC,first mmo i played had no clue wtf i was doing.i tought myself how to pvp by getting my ass kicked in bgs by better more geared players
    Always fun to assume someone who actually kind of agrees with you is a liar, but you are clearly ignoring two things:

    1) With the way leveling is today, 1-80 can be done without leaving a SW/Org, and it is by far the most efficient way to level. So you can easily go to 80 without even seeing an opposing player. If you want to get to 90 to play with your friends, PvP just slows you down. So a lot of newer players don't have a chance to experience PvP until they hit 90. More on that in 2)

    2) In TBC, there were no pieces of Heirloom gear which changes the game at low levels so much. Personally, I don't mind low level PvP, but if you are new to PvP and don't have heirlooms, it's a slaughterfest in low level BGs. At the moment it's Prot Warriors one shotting people with Shield Slam, a few months ago it was Rogues and Hunters globaling people. Twinks existed in TBC, but now in low level BGs well over half the players (if not closer to 75%) are in full heirlooms. If you are a new player, you will get destroyed.

    I've played since Vanilla, and frankly the game is unrecognizable today as it was then (ask an older player about people quitting their jobs for the High Warlord/Grand Marshal Honor Grind for example).

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    meathead, you've never ever EVER been one to ask for warrior nerfs. No, not even in 5.0. The premise of your posts has always been "yea stupid warriors, ask for warrior nerfs so we end up in 4.3". So don't come in with that lol. But that's not the point. Blizzard DOES want to balance PvP as can clearly be seen by the 5.3 PvP power changes. I can tell you right now without a shadow of a doubt that PvP is better in 5.3 than it has been since S8 ONLY BECAUSE BURST IS TONED DOWN. That's how big THAT problem was.

    Lower the gear between PvE and PvP players has two effects, both for good: 1. it allows players to switch into pvp as they wish without getting steamrolled and 2. it allows new players that have only questing (also considered pve) gear to not get steamrolled. How is this bad at all? And to anyone saying that pvp gear isn't viable for pve and that blizzard is only going one way with this...you would be utterly wrong because the entire premise of the MoP starting changes was to remove pvp stats from the ilvl table allowing the gear to compete in main stats with pve gear. I will admit though that how the the tiering was done was completely off and is this issue is being exacerbated by how pvp gear ilvl will remain low. The fixes for this are easy and I'm hoping against hope that Blizzard will listen to reason.
    "meathead, you've never ever EVER been one to ask for warrior nerfs. No, not even in 5.0. The premise of your posts has always been "yea stupid warriors, ask for warrior nerfs so we end up in 4.3"

    first off your trying to side step what i really said.all you so called "hardcore" warriors keep asking for execute to be nerfed and the damage to be spread to our rotational ability's.i said dont ask for nerfs LIKE that becasue blizz will turn around and screw us over regardless.and guess what smart guy,they did exactly what i said they would do.execute has been nerfed now what 3 or 4 times,and our rotational ability's right along with it.so we ended up being shit in pve and pve with a weaker execute = i was right .i think blizz just nerfed execute again before last patch came out,right?could have swore i see a post in the warrior section by you saying how weak warriors are in both pvp and pve the other day.like i said go ahead and ask for damage nerfs,you'll get them and then some.

    now take the time and go back and read,you and any one can see where i said certain op'ed thing needed to be nerfed "t4b" ect.when things like execute get nerfed "and you wanted it to" for no reason i will argue that fact,same for 2nd wind.the warrior class "like i said"is bascily the same shitty class it was in cata,we just have better burst now.everything else has been gutted.this is what i said was going to happen.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 02:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Siddown View Post
    Always fun to assume someone who actually kind of agrees with you is a liar, but you are clearly ignoring two things:

    1) With the way leveling is today, 1-80 can be done without leaving a SW/Org, and it is by far the most efficient way to level. So you can easily go to 80 without even seeing an opposing player. If you want to get to 90 to play with your friends, PvP just slows you down. So a lot of newer players don't have a chance to experience PvP until they hit 90. More on that in 2)

    2) In TBC, there were no pieces of Heirloom gear which changes the game at low levels so much. Personally, I don't mind low level PvP, but if you are new to PvP and don't have heirlooms, it's a slaughterfest in low level BGs. At the moment it's Prot Warriors one shotting people with Shield Slam, a few months ago it was Rogues and Hunters globaling people. Twinks existed in TBC, but now in low level BGs well over half the players (if not closer to 75%) are in full heirlooms. If you are a new player, you will get destroyed.

    I've played since Vanilla, and frankly the game is unrecognizable today as it was then (ask an older player about people quitting their jobs for the High Warlord/Grand Marshal Honor Grind for example).
    low level pvp in wow "like the rest of wow's pvp" has never been balanced.if your a pvper,then you will still runs bgs to level up,i always did and di the same thing in rift now.but let say a pvper does no pvp at all when hes leveling up,and never leaves sw/org liek you said.well that means hes/shes is running instances right?that mean that player have have a crap ton of justice point they can exchange for honor at 90.that = free pvp gear for never pvping.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Siddown View Post
    Deleth,

    You don't react hostile, you initial hostility, including in the threads you start. Please don't paint yourself as the logical one speaking for the masses, because that simply isn't true. You don't post with any actual real numbers, you make them up to fit your pre-conceived notion of the game, and then claim they prove you are correct. You do it in every thread you can as long as it further pushes your agenda, which I honestly don't understand.
    And here we go. Having no actual arguments you're not even trying to refute any of my points instead you choose to attack me as a person and then rant about how I'd do the exact same thing, really? You can go and look up some of the old threads especially about the 512 ilevel pvp gear vs 540 discussion that happened quite some time ago where links to the WoWhead items and direct comparisons were posted, guess what, it made no difference for you guys.
    And I'd really like you to point out where I am trying to make myself out to be talking for the mayority, never said I did that unlike you. You did exactly that at several points.

    I'm not going to go through every point because it's basically rambling on about how you are right and I am wrong despite it just being your opinion that can't be substantiated, but I'll respond to this one.
    You are a funny one huh? You post your personal opinion, you come up with some silent mayority which spokes person is you and if someone disagrees with you you attack them directly instead of even trying to argue their points. And while you blame them for not backing up anything, neither do you. You have at no point posted any kind of numbers or real data on this whole issue, why's that?
    They want more people to PvP, it's as simple as that, again I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to grasp. Having more people play IS beneficial to PvP-ers as well, it broadens the pool of potential teammates (especially for people on low pop servers) and opponents, that can only be a good thing. As it stands now, anyone in full PvE gear is going to get destroyed in any BG (Rated or Normal) or Arena, even in Thunderforged Gear. Any decent player with BG Targets or Gladius knows who is geared/spec'd for PvP and who isn't. People in full PvE gear quickly focused and eliminated. This change lets those people at least survive, yet they will be dealing 30-40% less damage/healing.
    Explain to me how exactly I will profit from my gear being worse than before compared to PvE pieces. I in all honesty couldn't care less about PvE people flooding Arenas/RBGs (something that simply will not happen) seeing as how I would never interact with most of them in any kind of way since I am far above their ratings. Many PvE people simply don't want to PvP, they have no interest in it and that wont change.
    From my experience many PvE people loath PvP and PvPers for that matter and I can't say it's much different for me when it comes to these people. So me being put at a disadvantage in World PvP and them being boosted by a lot in PvP isn't doing me any favors whatsoever. It's balancing PvP and making it more accesible to the PvE crowd who should take a backseat when it comes to PvP problems.

    Which leads us back to PvE, again I'm really not sure why you are obsessed with this issue. It sounds like you just really want to be able to PvE in PvP gear. PvE is a completely different game that PvP, you can't accept that but that doesn't matter, because with 5.3 Blizzard has. PvE is also much more popular, which means they don't need encourage more people to do it. If PvP was more popular than PvE, they wouldn't be making this change.
    PvE is dying just the same albeit slower. PvP participation massively dropped due to some of the changes made in unfavor of the PvP community and is further declining as of now. You might want to explain to me how driving most of the dedicated PvP players away and then trying to bolster the numbers by bringing the PvE players in is doing PvPers a favor.
    And they stated they in general want people to be able to participate on BOTH PARTS of the game easier and having an easier time to jump from one into the other. They however aren't really being very consequent about it when it comes to the PvP > PvE transition. In all honesty, the way you PvE guys like to be exclusive about PvE claiming PvP people should be at a huge disadvantage and kept out of it while at the same time wanting to have an easy time jumping into PvP is sickening to say the least.

    The reality is, you can claim that I don't speak for the silent majority and you might be right, but I can say the same thing about you. But, I can say that I seem to fall on Blizzard's side on this issue, and as much as you continue to thnk they are liars, I think they know a lot more about the player base than either you are I do.
    The reality is that I never said I'm speaking for the majority, you on the other hand did. As for Blizzard, they have over and over again proven that when it comes to PvP and the PvP community they obviously don't know what they are doing. A great many issues and developements were predicted LONG, LONG before they went live and Blizzard was told what was happened.
    They often didn't act or thought they knew better and it turned out that wasn't the case in many instances. So no, I don't exactly have a lot of trust in them or believe they know what they're doing.

    The biggest problem I have is that you guys are saying PvP does not need any rewards whatsoever and needs to be completly changed, when it worked just fine for classic/tbc/wotlk and parts of Cataclysm. You didn't even want to touch the whole vanity reward aspect and I am mostly talking about actually accessible stuff that will stay with you for longer than a single season.
    At the same time you're convinced even with ALL of these things thrown in PvE will only function if there's also gear. This is highly contradictory.

    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    if your a pvper
    I am 99,9% sure he is not a PvP player.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    I agree - you may be able to obtain the same gear as the top PVP'ers on Earth, but the fact is: What about the little 2200 only chants ^_-

    On another note, The "wow old community is pretty much all gone because the way the gamehas change." is more or less an incorrect statement. The game is 8.5 years old. You remember what game launched with World of Warcraft? Halo 2, you know - that game on the Original Xbox that's had it's servers offline for clear over 3.5 years.
    "I agree - you may be able to obtain the same gear as the top PVP'ers on Earth, but the fact is: What about the little 2200 only chants ^_-"

    i like said rating requirements have been removed fromm gear and i said i agree with that.for blizz to place rating reqs on enchants is just dumb.all you have to do is play to get your gear,thats it.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post


    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 01:38 PM ----------



    so how much does it cost and what does a new 90 have to do to get into end game pve?surly in a pve gear "lmfao" blizz should try to get everyone into pve,right?why no gear scale for pve?
    Where did anything I mentioned regarding the crafted gear have anything to do with pve gear? Again, prices vary from server to server. The prices for pve gear on my server are significantly higher than for the pvp stuff. That's anecdotal evidence, though.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    And here we go. Having no actual arguments you're not even trying to refute any of my points instead you choose to attack me as a person and then rant about how I'd do the exact same thing, really? You can go and look up some of the old threads especially about the 512 ilevel pvp gear vs 540 discussion that happened quite some time ago where links to the WoWhead items and direct comparisons were posted, guess what, it made no difference for you guys.
    And I'd really like you to point out where I am trying to make myself out to be talking for the mayority, never said I did that unlike you. You did exactly that at several points.


    You are a funny one huh? You post your personal opinion, you come up with some silent mayority which spokes person is you and if someone disagrees with you you attack them directly instead of even trying to argue their points. And while you blame them for not backing up anything, neither do you. You have at no point posted any kind of numbers or real data on this whole issue, why's that?

    Explain to me how exactly I will profit from my gear being worse than before compared to PvE pieces. I in all honesty couldn't care less about PvE people flooding Arenas/RBGs (something that simply will not happen) seeing as how I would never interact with most of them in any kind of way since I am far above their ratings. Many PvE people simply don't want to PvP, they have no interest in it and that wont change.
    From my experience many PvE people loath PvP and PvPers for that matter and I can't say it's much different for me when it comes to these people. So me being put at a disadvantage in World PvP and them being boosted by a lot in PvP isn't doing me any favors whatsoever. It's balancing PvP and making it more accesible to the PvE crowd who should take a backseat when it comes to PvP problems.


    PvE is dying just the same albeit slower. PvP participation massively dropped due to some of the changes made in unfavor of the PvP community and is further declining as of now. You might want to explain to me how driving most of the dedicated PvP players away and then trying to bolster the numbers by bringing the PvE players in is doing PvPers a favor.
    And they stated they in general want people to be able to participate on BOTH PARTS of the game easier and having an easier time to jump from one into the other. They however aren't really being very consequent about it when it comes to the PvP > PvE transition. In all honesty, the way you PvE guys like to be exclusive about PvE claiming PvP people should be at a huge disadvantage and kept out of it while at the same time wanting to have an easy time jumping into PvP is sickening to say the least.


    The reality is that I never said I'm speaking for the majority, you on the other hand did. As for Blizzard, they have over and over again proven that when it comes to PvP and the PvP community they obviously don't know what they are doing. A great many issues and developements were predicted LONG, LONG before they went live and Blizzard was told what was happened.
    They often didn't act or thought they knew better and it turned out that wasn't the case in many instances. So no, I don't exactly have a lot of trust in them or believe they know what they're doing.

    The biggest problem I have is that you guys are saying PvP does not need any rewards whatsoever and needs to be completly changed, when it worked just fine for classic/tbc/wotlk and parts of Cataclysm. You didn't even want to touch the whole vanity reward aspect and I am mostly talking about actually accessible stuff that will stay with you for longer than a single season.
    At the same time you're convinced even with ALL of these things thrown in PvE will only function if there's also gear. This is highly contradictory.


    I am 99,9% sure he is not a PvP player.


    agree with you 100%

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    i like said rating requirements have been removed fromm gear and i said i agree with that.for blizz to place rating reqs on enchants is just dumb.all you have to do is play to get your gear,thats it.
    It's supposed to be a reward, just like the 2,7k tabard/cloak. The problem is, it's a pretty crappy one. Let's face it, if they want to get away from gear as reward they will have to reward other stuff such as mounts or transmog to make up for it. The same things you get in raids on a regular basis often when just doing normal without much effort.

    I've been 2,4k in RBG's last season and I am fairly sure I wont hit 2,7k this season. Yet that's where the only real reward is at. This is a huge problem since unlike in PvE where everyone gets their reward only the top 0,5% of Arena/RBG actually get any kind of substantial reward in the forms of mounts (and even those are Arena exklusive) for example.
    Why is it that the tiny number of vanity rewards is pretty much exclusive to the 0,5%? That instead of new titles, we get the exact same each season?

    They really should add a new mount each season and just recolor it for the different ratings. Starting at 1,6 up to 2,4k with 400~ rating requirement in between each color for example. It would give players something to strive for and an actual reward for reaching higher ratings that will stay with them even after the season is over.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    give players something to strive for and an actual reward for reaching higher ratings that will stay with them even after the season is over.
    This. Whether it be permanent titles, your proposed mount idea, something. I don't see the harm in having the standard arena titles being permanent (as a sign of roughly how high up the ladder you've climbed). Then again, achievements help to mark that now...but that's no different than, say, linking heroic raid boss kills or whatever. Maybe different rewards based on whether you attain challenger/rival/duelist/glad, with ex. glad getting an xmog set a la Challenge Modes, Duelist getting...a tabard, I guess, cloak for Rival. Something like that.

  20. #60
    In my opinion PVP progression IS NEEDED. I think I am going to get that bored once in BIS pvp gear that I will stop playing.

    Time will tell If I am right or wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

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