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  1. #21
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    Last two nights the dps meta was less of my damage done than what i had been used to, I have been checking over and over here to see if it was just me or other people had noticed the same?
    Last edited by Nuttypoolog; 2013-05-20 at 03:49 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuttypoolog View Post
    Last two nights the dps meta was less of my damage done than what i had been used to, I have been checking over and over here to see if it was just me or other people had noticed the same?
    Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Got logs?

    There was a (now reverted) hotfix that nerfed the proc-rate of the meta by ~50% in an effort to reduce user lag in 25m raids due to RPPM calculations. The change failed to accomplish the desired fix, and succeeded only in breaking the Meta earlier this past week. It was reverted a day or so later. If you experienced the dmg decrease during that time window (I believe it was Weds & Thurs in the US), that would be your explanation. If if was outside that window, please provide logs of the issue both a "before" and "after" for comparison.

    Otherwise, chalk it up to RNG.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Got logs?

    There was a (now reverted) hotfix that nerfed the proc-rate of the meta by ~50% in an effort to reduce user lag in 25m raids due to RPPM calculations. The change failed to accomplish the desired fix, and succeeded only in breaking the Meta earlier this past week. It was reverted a day or so later. If you experienced the dmg decrease during that time window (I believe it was Weds & Thurs in the US), that would be your explanation. If if was outside that window, please provide logs of the issue both a "before" and "after" for comparison.

    Otherwise, chalk it up to RNG.
    So I have only had the meta for the last two weeks of raiding and last weeks logs show my % of damage done ranging from 11.1-12.6%. The last two nights were 10.1 and 10.3%, I guess it seemed worse than that. I would post links but I am at work on my phone with bad service, and pretty sure I can't link yet anyways. US Stormrage <comatose> nutty, but I suppose it just could be a coincidence I saw my lowest numbers the last 2 nights

  4. #24
    That's within the margin of error.
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  5. #25
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    while I follow the suggestion of "10-12% dps increase is huge", has anyone considered the possibility, that maybe if you take the tank meta you could roll with 1 healer less, maybe some fights maybe even 1-healed and thus bringing a real dps instead of a 12% dps increase from the tank?
    or is the reduction too low at the end so that is not realistic?

    but IF it is, the tank meta contributes way more to raid dps if you could replace healer with a full dps. I think even a resto shaman who occasionally or a disc priest who then could 100% go smiting would contribute more dps than the tank if he takes the dps meta.

    just trying to think not only about personal dps increase. at least it's something worth thinking about, even if it turns out not to be practicable.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    while I follow the suggestion of "10-12% dps increase is huge", has anyone considered the possibility, that maybe if you take the tank meta you could roll with 1 healer less, maybe some fights maybe even 1-healed and thus bringing a real dps instead of a 12% dps increase from the tank?
    or is the reduction too low at the end so that is not realistic?

    but IF it is, the tank meta contributes way more to raid dps if you could replace healer with a full dps. I think even a resto shaman who occasionally or a disc priest who then could 100% go smiting would contribute more dps than the tank if he takes the dps meta.

    just trying to think not only about personal dps increase. at least it's something worth thinking about, even if it turns out not to be practicable.
    No, it won't.
    Tank meta is SHIT (tbh). It's an average of 5% dmg reduction (less on most encounters).

  7. #27
    has anyone considered the possibility, that maybe if you take the tank meta you could roll with 1 healer less, maybe some fights maybe even 1-healed and thus bringing a real dps instead of a 12% dps increase from the tank?
    Very quickly, and decided that taking 20% less damage a third of the time isn't going to let us drop a healer because most of the time a healer isn't actually healing the tank.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    while I follow the suggestion of "10-12% dps increase is huge", has anyone considered the possibility, that maybe if you take the tank meta you could roll with 1 healer less, maybe some fights maybe even 1-healed and thus bringing a real dps instead of a 12% dps increase from the tank?
    or is the reduction too low at the end so that is not realistic?

    but IF it is, the tank meta contributes way more to raid dps if you could replace healer with a full dps. I think even a resto shaman who occasionally or a disc priest who then could 100% go smiting would contribute more dps than the tank if he takes the dps meta.

    just trying to think not only about personal dps increase. at least it's something worth thinking about, even if it turns out not to be practicable.
    The problem with the meta gem is not that having 40% uptime on a 20% damage reduction is bad, the problem comes in those 40% uptime is random, say Tortos forexample, solo tanking this you could get unlucky enough for it to NEVER proc on bats, pretty much removing the reason you took it in the first place.

    In general unless damage is consistent throughout the fight this gem is not very good, as a lot of mechanics in ToT is burst damage, which is why prot paladins are so good to begin with because our very active damage reduction.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by xebtria View Post
    while I follow the suggestion of "10-12% dps increase is huge", has anyone considered the possibility, that maybe if you take the tank meta you could roll with 1 healer less, maybe some fights maybe even 1-healed and thus bringing a real dps instead of a 12% dps increase from the tank?
    or is the reduction too low at the end so that is not realistic?

    but IF it is, the tank meta contributes way more to raid dps if you could replace healer with a full dps. I think even a resto shaman who occasionally or a disc priest who then could 100% go smiting would contribute more dps than the tank if he takes the dps meta.

    just trying to think not only about personal dps increase. at least it's something worth thinking about, even if it turns out not to be practicable.
    If you have played tank for a while and begun to undertand tanking in depth, you will being to realise exactly how shit the tank meta is. The tank meta won't let you drop a healer, let alone will it allow for your healers to use any less heals. If anything it is very likely to cause your healers to use more heals. The tank meta is really as bad as they gets. Using it is a non-option. Absolutely no benefit.
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  10. #30
    Epic! rawhammer's Avatar
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    healers heal the raid
    it's mainly the tanks that heal the tanks :P
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  11. #31
    the tank meta is bad for similar reasons dodge and parry are 'bad'. It's random, and increases total damage reduction. Total damage almost never kills tanks. Another 10-25k dps can be a much larger benefit to your raid, especially on 10.

    40% is more of a theoretical maximum. From my experience on fights where I'm being attack all the time it's closer to the 30-35% range. And on fights that have tank swaps the uptime is roughly half that. Were the dps meta will still give you some damage while you're not being attacked.

  12. #32
    The gem is plain bad in patchwerk situations, in which case it will actually increase the mana healers have to waste on you.

    The only time the prot gem actually does something useful is when it randomly proc on high damage periods, but you should already cover that with cds, so really, it does nothing.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #33
    Stood in the Fire Riemu2k3's Avatar
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    I didn't get that one. I mean, I know the Tank Meta is bad. But why do the healers need to waste more mana with the gem than without it? Shouldn't the mana be less or equal? The overheal might increase yes, but the mana should stay the same?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Riemu2k3 View Post
    I didn't get that one. I mean, I know the Tank Meta is bad. But why do the healers need to waste more mana with the gem than without it? Shouldn't the mana be less or equal? The overheal might increase yes, but the mana should stay the same?
    In a mathematical world, yes. In reality, the proc causes your damage taken to lower for a while, so when the procs falls off the healers are unprepared for that extra damage causing them to having to use heavier heals often resulting in mana inefficient heals. It is the same reason why dodge/parry is terrible, since even though they reduce more damage, the spiky damage intake causes healers having to use inefficient heals.

    To demonstrate with incredibly poorly drawn images.
    Now this is of course extremely simplified and assumes a static damage intake which we knows never happen. (and when the damage in take is not static the meta sucks even more)

    The red line = Damage Taken
    The green line = Healing done by healers on the tank


    First without the meta


    Then with the meta


    Now as said, this is not exactly mathematically accurate, but you get the jest

    The proc does not allow healers to react enough to lower your heals, so they do not really save any mana on that since before they notice you have the proc it is already over. Usually towards the end of the procs the healers go "Oh, the tank is taking less damage, we can heal him less", suddenly the procs stops and you take more damage again causing them to having to use mana inefficient heals to heal you up since they were not prepared for your damage in take to increase.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #35
    Another problem with tank meta (besides it's shitty dmg reduction, and shitty uptime) is that it's only physical damage.
    For me the average uptime i've seen (in a fight with tank swaps) is ~20%.
    This makes it have average damage reduction of .2 * .2 = .04 = 4%
    However, my damage taken is made up of ~ 75% physical and 25% non physical damage --> meta drops down to 3% damage reduction.
    At the end of the day this number might be higher (probably stuff like horridon) or lower (most of the fight) but even if it was constant and always up (which would eliminate the problem with the spikes and etc, it would still be a smaller % wise benefit than the +11-12 % dps)

  16. #36
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    Thing is as a prot pally we really have the physical damage reduction kinda covered (SotR yo). Tank meta jst doesn't do anything exciting. Firing lazors from your forehead gives so much more bang for your buck.
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  17. #37
    Sorry firefly, but thats just wrong advice youre throwing arround.
    It may be true that the meta doesnt help a lot, but it defenetly does not cause the healers to actually spend more mana.
    A pretty picture wont change anything about that.

    A healer is always aware and focused on the tanks. The difference in having meta up or not is not the difference from "i have to pay attention to tank" and "key, time to make a coffee. 20sec later: OMFG need 4 flasheals now!"

    Youre overexagerating completly. Do you also never use GotaK because youre frightened to "get spiked" after it drops off, and wasting a lot of healer mana?
    I as main healer just cant in anyway acknowledge the phenomenon you describe.
    I even have a display showing if tank has CDs up (and blinks when they run out)

  18. #38
    Ofc I use GoAK but you use that in those high damage periods to make them more linear.

    That is why I said that it is no accurate since damage is not static.

    Now this is of course extremely simplified and assumes a static damage intake which we knows never happen. (and when the damage in take is not static the meta sucks even more)
    And what I am saying is just a part of it. The tank meta is really as useless as it gets. I am yet to see 1 valid reason for it, while there are several reasons why it is crap.
    You are touching the exact issue, I presumed static damage in-take. That never happens, however every single tanking simulation assumes static damage in-take.
    Static damage in-take is when the meta gem "shines", when the damage in-take is alternating, the meta gem is utter crap. In my example it was static which it never is in reality, but it was still bad.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-22 at 11:41 AM ----------

    The reality is that the meta gem does nothing. Any good or bad effect it has is to small to measure.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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