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  1. #1
    High Overlord Hatebox's Avatar
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    Durumu 10m Help needed. With Logs.

    Hello guys.

    We’re now progressing on Durumu, 10m, normal mode.
    Had our 30th wipe last night. Here are some logs of our “best” tries, wiping to Enrage.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iu...?s=1084&e=1689
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iu...?s=6458&e=7063

    As far I can see, DPS is low. Taking a bit long to kill the fogs during red/blue/yellow.

    Ranged guys says they can’t do more DPS because they have to move a lot and can’t cast while running. Any tips?

    We’re running 3 heal/2 tanks. Tried some 3 heal/1 tank but had some problems with “wrong time“ BOP/Instant Melee Dead/Re-Taunt (my fault, was the tank) and our OT does almost the same DPS when he's Unholy, so, not worth the extra stress at alll.

    Would love some feedback / help from more experienced players, so we can finally kill it this week.

    Sorry for my English and thanks in advance.
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  2. #2
    On both tries where you hit the enrage you have people dying before it, thus lower dps.

    Frost DK and Ret are fine, other dps are indeed low.

    That said, one tanking it would also be a big dps increase, even if the offtank doesnt do more dps, the main tank will see a huge dps increase from vengeance since he'll be tanking all the time. We one tank it every week and have no problem with it, just have a /cancelaura Hand of Protection macro and spam it when you're getting BoP'd.

    Honestly, just one tank it, with two paladins in your raid I can't see any reason no to do it.

    edit: Warlock can cast while running, no excuse for low dps, tell him to take the melee path during the maze so he can do it with the -30%speed from casting.
    Last edited by Zulbukh; 2013-04-30 at 12:50 PM.

  3. #3
    All i can say is people need to understand their class better, your warlock is doing dps that was pretty normal in the first week of the expansion. If you're hitting enrage then it isn't a failure to understand the fight

  4. #4
    Your warlock really should be affliction for 10m normal especially with those trinkets. If he insists on destro then he needs to havoc/shadowburn the adds more and run while casting in the melee maze. At his gear level he is holding you back without proper enchants and talents also.

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Yes, your DPS is low. Specifically your warlock, warrior, and shadow priest.

    However, you really only had 3 attempts when you hit enrage. And only 4 of your attempt went beyond 5 minutes. This means you guys are not executing the mechanics of the fight correctly. Rather than focusing on your DPS, I'd focus on the mechanics of the fight. Are you handling the color cones correctly? If you have melee in red cone for example, if a melee gets targeted by the blue is he calling it out and asking for a ranged / healer to jump into the red to make up for him not being in it? Are you quickly marking where the red adds are with the raid markers, communicating which direction the red beam should head, and bursting them down ASAP? Be sure the person with the beam isn't out running everyone else (like a mage can with blazing speed).

    How are you communicating for handling life drain? Our guild found that this was the key for us - really good communication on how we're going to handle each life drain, especially when it happens during a color phase.

    Overall I think this fight is less a DPS check, more a check of a raids ability to communicate and adapt to the color cones and life drain. But more DPS wouldn't hurt.

  6. #6
    You have people dying to stupid stuff. This is a fight where nobody should die unless they screw up. That being said you should have your dps look into sites that have rotations for them. Places like icy-veins and the mmo-champion class forums can help them figure out how to maximize their dps for the fight overall even if it does suffer during maze phase(which is really the only time they're moving so not sure what the complaint is).

    Your English is better than a lot of the people I see at my college, don't apologize for it.

  7. #7
    Mechagnome
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    ilvl 500 lock doing atleast 30k too little dmg is one problem.
    The light phase will go faster and faster, we are doing it 40sec~
    Mark spots with macro and run close to boss to spawn em faster.

  8. #8
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    The movement on this fight should not be whats killing you!

    Here is our log as a comparison as you can see warlocks and mages have zero issues on this fight!
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...?s=3866&e=4346

    The main thing about this fight is making sure that everyone knows there role and how to execute it. If they get blue beam they should know what to do, red the same etc. The hardest part of the fight is understanding what to do when and executing it! If some one is being life drained then peopel need to step in and take it off in rotation etc!

    This is my POV for a reference of what we do, you can hear our RL calling things out so gives a good idea of what needs to be communicated.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB-QVHzmOo4

  9. #9
    You can also try and 2 heal it. Its not to hard and you can use external raid cd's when necesarry. Your dps is really really low though. I wonder how you even got to durumu

  10. #10
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    The movement on this fight should not be whats killing you!

    Here is our log as a comparison as you can see warlocks and mages have zero issues on this fight!


    snip!
    Just as a quick aside so as to not mislead: The mage in the OPs guild is frost, your is fire. Fire has a much easier time with mobile DPS than frost does. Directly comparing them isn't a good measure of his performance.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Mehman's Avatar
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    Your dps is just way too low. The ret and frost Dk do acceptable (not good, acceptable) dps, but being below 100k is just bad. If they keep complaining about not being able to move and dps at the same time, stick them in the melee part of the maze and in the blue, they should be able to DPS then and if they can't get above 100k.. I can't help you.

    Also, looking at the first log, Fulldor dies part to standing in stuff he isn't supposed to be standing in (Lingering Gaze), and part to healers healers not being able to top him, Due to the first. Later on you have someone dying to Drain Life, never have anyone get more than 3 stacks. You also have people dying to Eye Sore (Called it a wipe I suppose?).

    Get those things sorted and the boss should go down.


  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Frost1129's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    The movement on this fight should not be whats killing you!

    Here is our log as a comparison as you can see warlocks and mages have zero issues on this fight!
    Your mage is fire, OPs mage is frost. Comparing the two wouldn't be the best way to measure his performance.

  13. #13
    High Overlord Hatebox's Avatar
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    First of all, thanks everyone for the replies. Every single tip will be helpful! I’ll check out all the Logs/Youtube vids you guys shared. Thanks
    I’ll try to explain / cover some stuff you guys said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kave View Post
    Your warlock really should be affliction for 10m normal especially with those trinkets. If he insists on destro then he needs to havoc/shadowburn the adds more and run while casting in the melee maze. At his gear level he is holding you back without proper enchants and talents also.
    Actually he did a try as Affiction and, OMFG, things gone worse!!!!! http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iu...?s=1903&e=2349
    __
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Yes, your DPS is low. Specifically your warlock, warrior, and shadow priest.
    (…) Are you handling the color cones correctly? If you have melee in red cone for example, if a melee gets targeted by the blue is he calling it out and asking for a ranged / healer to jump into the red to make up for him not being in it? Are you quickly marking where the red adds are with the raid markers, communicating which direction the red beam should head, and bursting them down ASAP? Be sure the person with the beam isn't out running everyone else (like a mage can with blazing speed).
    How are you communicating for handling life drain? Our guild found that this was the key for us - really good communication on how we're going to handle each life drain, especially when it happens during a color phase.
    Yeah, I’ll try to improve a bit my DPS (warrior here). Was trying to time my rage to pop some big Shield Barriers to counter the Hard Stare (since it’s when Durumu applies that DOT and healers take some time to bring me back to full life (sometimes they let me with 2/3 stacks, and that’s really bad afaik). Tomorrow will pop more Shield Blocks and will be able to do more damage
    Colors are something like this: Both tanks on yellow cone; two healers (Paladin/Shaman) on Blue one (sometimes a DPS stays there too) and rest on red cone.
    Red adds spots are being marked, problem is they are taking a bit to die. Saw that on the 2 Enrage parses I linked, the warlock didn’t dps the adds at all (something like 5% of his damage wtf).
    Life drain we try to change every 3 stacks. Both healers and dps help. Even the OT helps sometimes.
    __
    Quote Originally Posted by Miscam View Post
    You can also try and 2 heal it. Its not to hard and you can use external raid cd's when necesarry. Your dps is really really low though. I wonder how you even got to durumu
    It’s prolly an option but just the Druid has an “OK” offspec (boomkin 495~) and TBH, if we’re going 2 heals I’d want him as one of them.
    We got to Durumu with LOTS of wipes. Like 40+ Jin’rokh, 50+ Horridon (Only way we can kill it is me tanking the boss during the entire fight with BoP and Bloodlust on 3rd gate), 40+ Council (Lust Zerg @ Sul, 1 tank, 3 heal, AOE everything, ignoring Loa Spirits – since our ranged could not kill them in time), 50+ Tortos, 35+ Megaera and like 30+ on Ji-Kun.
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  14. #14
    It really seems like a DPS issue, I would just try 2 healing for a few pulls and see how disatrous it is.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Drugshock View Post
    First of all, thanks everyone for the replies. Every single tip will be helpful! I’ll check out all the Logs/Youtube vids you guys shared. Thanks
    I’ll try to explain / cover some stuff you guys said.


    Actually he did a try as Affiction and, OMFG, things gone worse!!!!! http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iu...?s=1903&e=2349
    __

    Yeah, I’ll try to improve a bit my DPS (warrior here). Was trying to time my rage to pop some big Shield Barriers to counter the Hard Stare (since it’s when Durumu applies that DOT and healers take some time to bring me back to full life (sometimes they let me with 2/3 stacks, and that’s really bad afaik). Tomorrow will pop more Shield Blocks and will be able to do more damage
    Colors are something like this: Both tanks on yellow cone; two healers (Paladin/Shaman) on Blue one (sometimes a DPS stays there too) and rest on red cone.
    Red adds spots are being marked, problem is they are taking a bit to die. Saw that on the 2 Enrage parses I linked, the warlock didn’t dps the adds at all (something like 5% of his damage wtf).
    Life drain we try to change every 3 stacks. Both healers and dps help. Even the OT helps sometimes.
    __

    It’s prolly an option but just the Druid has an “OK” offspec (boomkin 495~) and TBH, if we’re going 2 heals I’d want him as one of them.
    We got to Durumu with LOTS of wipes. Like 40+ Jin’rokh, 50+ Horridon (Only way we can kill it is me tanking the boss during the entire fight with BoP and Bloodlust on 3rd gate), 40+ Council (Lust Zerg @ Sul, 1 tank, 3 heal, AOE everything, ignoring Loa Spirits – since our ranged could not kill them in time), 50+ Tortos, 35+ Megaera and like 30+ on Ji-Kun.
    30+ wipes on Jinrokh? Uh....not even sure what to say here. Our freshly made guild (at the time) swagged in without knowing the mechanics and 1 shot him. You are not gonna be having fun with the rest of ToT, I can tell ya that.

  16. #16
    not going to comment on dps since others have, but as for your HPally:
    1. switch from Light's Hammer to Holy Prism. On too many attempts, Light's Hammer (arcing light) did little to no healing (only38K on the last attempt you linked). switching to holy prism will help healing in the maze (cast on durumu) and help heal up a tank (direct cast) after an arterial cut.
    2. Windsong is a major drop in effectiveness vs jade spirit....the +haste and +crit procs are not helping him...across all wipes on your last log: 170 procs, 48 were mastery (only 28%), the rest crit/haste = mostly a waste
    3. CD usage is low: avenging wrath cast once in a 10 minute fight, guardian only 2 times across all wipes
    4. divine plea not cast at all in 10 minute fight and on use trinket (3 min CD mana regen) used only once in same fight (hard to believe that mana is not an issue at all)...hell, across all wipes on your last log, only DP'd 3 times

  17. #17
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Just as a quick aside so as to not mislead: The mage in the OPs guild is frost, your is fire. Fire has a much easier time with mobile DPS than frost does. Directly comparing them isn't a good measure of his performance.
    So class A has spec X that sucks at movement yet spec Y is great at movement. Go into heavy movement fight... swap to speck Y /profit?

    They may Love frost, and frost is probably vialble in the hands of a good frost mage but if they are having a hard time on the fight due to movement then they should respec to fire for the fight if that makes it better! I know they wont be min maxed gear wise but if they really can't keep up with movement in frost then they need to go fire for the raids benefit!

    Again our MAGE (not spec CLASS) has no issue with the movement and producing numbers thus the mage in question has the same option at there disposal and as such the excuse of mobility is not a good one and only a crutch to lean on > swapping to fire for the fight!

    Hes a pure DPS class thus the only measure of performance is the amount of dps he is pumping out vs what he could/ should be!

  18. #18
    boby; if they aren't worried about cutting edge progression, then I think you are picking on the frost mage a bit too much. his 90k is less relevant to their enrage timers than the lock, priest, and warrior's 60-70k dps.

    I don't disagree, the mage could do more ... but I'm all for people to play what they like, even if they are 10% or so under the cut, if all is well. I'd look into asking them to improve/switch, if everything else is on the ball (everyone's gemmed/chanted, food/flask, reforged optimally; performing priorities etc) that are underperforming first.

    The game, first and foremost, should be about having fun, and doing what you enjoy. don't think their mage pulling an extra 10-20k is worth being crass about; when 3 of the dps are 30k under ... getting those 3 to make up the near 100k dps they are slacking will be far more productive for the group, as if they had an extra dps in their raid, than getting that mage up an extra 5-10% theoretically ... because there is no guarantee that if they switch to fire, even if they fixed their gear for it, that they'd perform in that spec well. Not all specs are for all people.

    I enjoyed blood dk dps in wrath ... was decent at unholy as well ... but because I didn't like frost, I wasn't as good at it. I was never as good at demo back in the day, as I was affliction. I could never get pleasure out of frost mage, so never played it, and I'm sure I'd underperform in a spec I have no experience with, in a raid environment. I'd hinder the group for a week or two until muscle memory and such caught up with me.

  19. #19
    High Overlord Hatebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caant View Post
    not going to comment on dps since others have, but as for your HPally:
    1. switch from Light's Hammer to Holy Prism. On too many attempts, Light's Hammer (arcing light) did little to no healing (only38K on the last attempt you linked). switching to holy prism will help healing in the maze (cast on durumu) and help heal up a tank (direct cast) after an arterial cut.
    2. Windsong is a major drop in effectiveness vs jade spirit....the +haste and +crit procs are not helping him...across all wipes on your last log: 170 procs, 48 were mastery (only 28%), the rest crit/haste = mostly a waste
    3. CD usage is low: avenging wrath cast once in a 10 minute fight, guardian only 2 times across all wipes
    4. divine plea not cast at all in 10 minute fight and on use trinket (3 min CD mana regen) used only once in same fight (hard to believe that mana is not an issue at all)...hell, across all wipes on your last log, only DP'd 3 times
    Ty very much. Gonna make him read this tonight.


    And hey guys, just to know, that warrior (me) is a tank! I'll def try to pull at least 10k+ dps with some SB/SBar adjusts, but the 100k threshold you're talking about, i'll only achieve if solo tanking (did some tries, like the 6th, 100k+ DPS)

    About the mage, I'll ask him how confortable he's with fire. As far I remember, he does better dps as frost, but, will re-check

    Thanks again
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  20. #20
    Hey, how did your raid go?

    I'm coming in to say: first off, your warlock can stay destro. Destro, affliction, demo, it doesn't matter, especially when your lock is already struggling, having him switch specs will likely make him perform even worse (as you indeed said he did).

    This fight can be easily 2man healed, and 1 man tanked, if dps is an issue.

    Generally, on Durumu, and I haven't looked at your logs yet, but generally if you hit enrage on Durumu, Drain Life is the issue. The enrage is so lenient that even the shittiest dps combo has a hard time hitting it provided all mechanics are dealt with accordingly.

    I now checked your logs. On your longest try, you had SO many life drain stacks it's probably a record. Twice it stacked to 5 times, and several times to 4. If you address this, the boss will keel over dead even if your priest on the 10min try would have been outdps'd by a disc.

    That said, on to your dps. I'm no priest so I can't help the bloke and I saw that he did slightly better on other tries, possibly he was dead (I didn't bother to check). Dps-issues so severe as these (they are quite severe, no offense meant though) aren't fixed overnight. Usually, there's a bigger underlying problem, like no ABC (Always Be Casting) which is a problem that will occur even more frequently on movement fights. As your ranged indeed said, they apperently find it hard to survive the movement parts and do dps at the same, likely resulting in erratic casts, random casts (also known as WRONG BUTTON), or no casts at all. If on top of that he's a clicker, well, the problem just became twice as bad.

    Make no mistake that warlock, though not hard to play on itself, requires a little bit more dept to play decent and has a pretty high skill-cap, especially affliction and demo, which, as a result, means this warlock is better off as destro in general. That said, that Valor trinket is crap and especially crap as destro, but anyway.

    - He is at almost 18% hit. The hitcap today is 15%, so dropping 3% hit will of course increase his dps.
    - He has 5 unenchanted items and is missing a gem. When your dps is already crap, really, this is unacceptable. He's willingly dragging down the entire raid.
    - Statweights as destro are fairly close so a complete overhaul on reforges will probably not make a world of difference, yet seeing his issues with Hit he probably will benefit greatly by reading up on his class.

    Now, rotationally:

    His Rain of Fire uptime is almost non-existant. He will need an external way to track RoF, and maximize its uptime so he generates more embers. Details on this, again, in stickies on the warlock forums or on sites like noxxic or icy-veins.
    He used shadowburn twice. That's not enough. There's enough adds and for every shadowburn he gains 2 embers, which in return will help his dps.
    His conflag usage seems on the low side, meaning he's capping on conflag cooldown (you get 2 "stacks" of it that you can use, a bit like paladin Hands when you spec clemency), but as I have no destro logs to compare to, I may be wrong. Still, his dps is so low this would not surprise me.
    His immolate uptime was actually really good!
    He used fel flames 27 times. Now why he'd ever want to do that, I don't know. Tell him to unbind Fel Flame if you must, make him go Kiljaeden's cunning and never use that crappy spell ever as all it will do for him is drain his mana. No, he is not to refresh immolate with fel flame under any circumstance.
    Make him go Kiljaeden's Cunning. When in doubt, have him always take KJC. He's using fel flame because he has Mannorth's Fury. Why would he want MF, I don't know. He should not ever want MF excepting some rare cases, in which case a warlock struggling as he is shouldn't want it anyway.
    Make sure he uses Chaos Bolts (and shadowburn phase on boss) only when he is about to cap on embers, or when he has procs. He has wushoolay, make sure he's tracking that (and lightweave) so he can align his chaos bolts with those procs. Again, his other trinket is crap. His dps should improve if he'd get any other trinket. If he has normal cosmos lying around in his bags he's probably better off using that and tracking it.
    Though still debated, drop Sacrifice, take Supremacy. When he has issues with dps on the move, having a pet on the boss doing constant DPS is just way better than Sacrificing. Make him take Soul Link too, on most fights it's way superior to Dark Bargain (though Sac Pact is good too if the fight allows its usage properly), and this will give him more room to make mistakes.

    Hope I helped ever so slightly. TL;DR fix Life Drain, boss will be dead.
    Last edited by Cirque; 2013-04-30 at 11:31 PM.

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