Brewmaster tank in serious need of advice - thank you!

[Deleted]

Hey guys

So.. I got back to the game recently and started raiding again. Now what I hear from my healers is that my hp is dancing like crazy and I am taking very large hits. I know that we are avoidance tanks but I feel like something is wrong here.
I do know that Brewmaster tanks are more than viable atm. so I dont get why I feel so weak.

I keep my shuffle up at all times, I pop my brew between 10-15 stacks, I pop guard when ready, I strafe to pick up healing orbs, so I really dont have a clue what is wrong here.

At the moment were doing ToT normal, so should have the gear for it.

Here is my armory link:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Panderp/simple

I hope that you will help me out, since I am just about to reroll my Blood DK because of this...
Thank you!


Best Regards
Panderp

[Wreckage827]

We will need logs to see what you are doing incorrectly. It also depends on the specific fight, are we talking all of them? What is your shuffle uptime (you actually get a better idea of this from World of Logs, because I don't think you actually have 100%)?

-Are you calling for healer cooldowns once you are out of Dampen Harm or Fort Brew? (Pain Supp, Ironbark, etc.)
-What stagger are you purifying at?

[La]

A couple things

1) You can sometimes time your guard for big hits, specific abilities that happen, to reduce damage. Also, don't forget your magic glyph guard
2) Same with elusive brew, save it for abilities that bosses do that will allow you to have up to 40% dodge+, don't just use these abilities on cd
3)drop your 15% expertise down to 7.5%, drop down to 5-5.5k haste, and put everything into crit. crit yellows, agi/crit orange, crit+stam greens. you don't have the greatest gear, so doing this will probably be your best option.

it'd be helpful if you had some logs, so we could look at the damage you take and when you're taking it, and what you're doing. It could also be your healers as well. The most important thing to keep in mind is we are active mitigation and sometimes that means using Elusive brew and guard at the best possible times.

[omni]

Your scenario is exactly the same as mine and I did end up switching to my Blood DK sadly. You're in almost the exact gear I was when we started ToT and I had the same problem.

Expel Harm on CD, Power Guard almost on CD, EB at 10 stacks, clear Stagger before a big hit or sometime during Moderate.

The only difference is I had the 4pc bonus, went 7.5% expertise, had 7-8K haste (can't remember exact now) without Power Strikes, after trying a 6K haste build and being equally unsuccessful.

I imagine you're going to get a reply asking for WoR logs :P

[gynshon]

Hey guys

So.. I got back to the game recently and started raiding again. Now what I hear from my healers is that my hp is dancing like crazy and I am taking very large hits. I know that we are avoidance tanks but I feel like something is wrong here.
I do know that Brewmaster tanks are more than viable atm. so I dont get why I feel so weak.

I keep my shuffle up at all times, I pop my brew between 10-15 stacks, I pop guard when ready, I strafe to pick up healing orbs, so I really dont have a clue what is wrong here.

At the moment were doing ToT normal, so should have the gear for it.

Here is my armory link:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Panderp/simple

I hope that you will help me out, since I am just about to reroll my Blood DK because of this...
Thank you!


Best Regards
Panderp

Don't try and emulate what the higher ilvl monks are doing until you reach those higher ilvls IMHO. A couple of tips to help you at the lower lvls if 10m:

- Hit/Exp at 7.5%. Raise EXP as you see fit to 15% when you start landing newer pieces because i swear 20/22 upgrades have expertise on them.
- 6k haste versus 5k haste is not a HUGE difference in chi generation, so drop that close to 5k and move stats into Crit.
- Use EB when you can predict incoming dmg after specials, ie: magaera breaths, then pop eb just before the end to have that for the melee hits.
- don't just use guard on cd, sometimes save it for those hard hitting moments. Talon rake, breaths, triple punc, etc

One thing to note that the expansion is new. Guardians are a thing of the past, hard to find nowadays because the class isn't really that fun, so most healers aren't used to avoidance tanks much. If played right, we are the 2nd best tank in the game right now next to Paladins and miles above the other 3.

If you have logs, it will help to see if there are things you can improve, or if your healers are just bad.

[Deleted]

Don't try and emulate what the higher ilvl monks are doing until you reach those higher ilvls IMHO. A couple of tips to help you at the lower lvls if 10m:

- Hit/Exp at 7.5%. Raise EXP as you see fit to 15% when you start landing newer pieces because i swear 20/22 upgrades have expertise on them.
- 6k haste versus 5k haste is not a HUGE difference in chi generation, so drop that close to 5k and move stats into Crit.
- Use EB when you can predict incoming dmg after specials, ie: magaera breaths, then pop eb just before the end to have that for the melee hits.
- don't just use guard on cd, sometimes save it for those hard hitting moments. Talon rake, breaths, triple punc, etc

One thing to note that the expansion is new. Guardians are a thing of the past, hard to find nowadays because the class isn't really that fun, so most healers aren't used to avoidance tanks much. If played right, we are the 2nd best tank in the game right now next to Paladins and miles above the other 3.

If you have logs, it will help to see if there are things you can improve, or if your healers are just bad.

Can't tell something better than that. Apply those tips and I think you'll be able to tank without making your healers crying. It's important to scale your statistics with your current stuff but the most important is to apply a new gamestyle, save your def abilities for an appropriate time. I guess BrM implies to really know the entire encounter to well place your def abilities (more than other tanks in my opinion).

But keep working on it, BrM is really fun to play and you have the opportunity to help your raid a LOT.

If u not, use WeakAuras to track basic stuff like Shuffle / EB / Stagger, it's really important to have a view on it (espacially shuffle).

[Ragethorn]

Sorry if I missed this, but is the OP raiding 10 or 25 man? If its 25 man, you could always go the Mastery route for smoother damage intake.

And as suggested before, use Weakauras. No other addon will help your tanking career more.

[Krazyfrog]

I used to have this issue and made one change that completely changed how I was being healed. STACK MASTERY!!! Mastery increases the amount of damage you stagger and will smooth out your damage intake. If you are seeing that you are being very spiky, Mastery will fix that.

Personally I aim for 6k haste then around 11-12% mastery then dump the rest into crit. You will find yourself having to purify more often, but that is expected since you are staggering more.

Try it out and you will see how much of a difference it makes.

[Deleted]

Saw on wowprogress that RAW Gaming is R10 guild. (Raw Gaming - Tarren Mill)

[Robb]

I used to have this issue and made one change that completely changed how I was being healed. STACK MASTERY!!! Mastery increases the amount of damage you stagger and will smooth out your damage intake. If you are seeing that you are being very spiky, Mastery will fix that.

Personally I aim for 6k haste then around 11-12% mastery then dump the rest into crit. You will find yourself having to purify more often, but that is expected since you are staggering more.

Try it out and you will see how much of a difference it makes.

Going mastery will never give as good results as a crit/haste build. I go for a haste cap of 6k (trying 5k soon) and the rest into crit, and the elusive brew uptime is phenomenal. Having an extra few % extra stagger really isn't that big of a difference, I tried it when we went into heroics and the logs showed it was much much better going crit/haste

[Darthvador]

i had the same problem , when i was starting in ToT (11/12 now) , when you are around 495-505 ilvl and you are taking way too much dmg try reforging in mastery instead of haste , matery help you to stagger more dmg , ive seen the difference , i was taking too much dmg on meghera and primo , so i reforged mastery for these 2 , now that i have more gear i can keep my haste/crit reforge , try it out also a tank specific trinket can help , i have the LFR version of vial of sanguinaire ( chance on dodge to gain a high amount of mastery ) work like a charm when you are taking way too much dmg

[Yohassakura]

Take some logs and post the link here, I couldn't find any searching WoL for your guild.

[Krazyfrog]

Going mastery will never give as good results as a crit/haste build. I go for a haste cap of 6k (trying 5k soon) and the rest into crit, and the elusive brew uptime is phenomenal. Having an extra few % extra stagger really isn't that big of a difference, I tried it when we went into heroics and the logs showed it was much much better going crit/haste

All I am saying is try it and see if it has the same impact that it had for me. When you say it like "a few extra %" then sure it sounds minor, but it is actually VERY noticeable when you are either new to tanking or have low end gear for the content you are working in. Sure, once you get geared and are on par with where you should be for your current content then a crit/haste build can be better, but that relys on your maintaining EB (and that the fight actually has a bunch of melee damage to allow EB to actually be beneficial).

[Darthvador]

All I am saying is try it and see if it has the same impact that it had for me. When you say it like "a few extra %" then sure it sounds minor, but it is actually VERY noticeable when you are either new to tanking or have low end gear for the content you are working in. Sure, once you get geared and are on par with where you should be for your current content then a crit/haste build can be better, but that relys on your maintaining EB (and that the fight actually has a bunch of melee damage to allow EB to actually be beneficial).

this guy is right , your healer are going to hate you if you stack haste / crit when you are undergeared/new to ToT

[gynshon]

this guy is right , your healer are going to hate you if you stack haste / crit when you are undergeared/new to ToT

No he isn't right. You cannot stagger all damage that is incoming. Someone mentioned too much dmg on maegara, but you don't stagger breaths, so really it is about AVOIDING the melee hits, and staggering the ones that do hit. Save EB and pop it at the 2nd tick of each breath. With a Crit build, you will have 8-15 stacks after each breath, which is huge.

If you are 10m, you should be Haste to 5kish, crit for the rest. Can you do more haste? Yes. Do you need to? No. Just stick to the guidelines, and you will be fine. Again, most healers are not used to avoidance tanks and tend to focus on other people and freak out a lot because this is what happens:

- You just popped EB at 15 stacks and are avoiding a decent amount of hits.
- You build up your shuffle and you know a big hit ability is incoming so you pop guard for say 400k absorb.
- Boss melee swing hits you for 100k (300k left) and then 2 secs later big ability hits you for 250k (50k left)
- For 8ish or so secs you are not requiring heals so they focus on Joe Schmoe who is standing in the stupid.
- Guard is off, EB is off, and the boss melees you twice in a row for 125k each.
- Healers are slow to react, and the next big hit special is incoming for 250k with no active mitigation up.
- OH CRAP!!!!! SPAM HEAL OMGZORZ!!!!!!
- Wipe ensues. They blame the tank instead of their own crappy play.
- Brewmaster tank leaves guild, joins another one, progresses farther than the previous guild because they have healers with a clue.

That pretty much sums it up.

[Nayre]

No he isn't right. You cannot stagger all damage that is incoming. Someone mentioned too much dmg on maegara, but you don't stagger breaths, so really it is about AVOIDING the melee hits, and staggering the ones that do hit. Save EB and pop it at the 2nd tick of each breath. With a Crit build, you will have 8-15 stacks after each breath, which is huge.

And yet, it's the tank spiking that caused the issue. Mastery smooths tank damage. You're right that mastery won't reduce the damage of the breaths (that's what guard, DM and others are for, anyhow). It will, however, reduce the damage you take from the swings on either side of the breath. And if you're playing right (using CDs for the breaths) then that's what will spike you down and cause issues. This'll be especially important in a 25-man where auto attacks are actually pretty dangerous. Or if you're undergeared and can't manage to get a good flow of EB going in time.

Both mastery- and crit-stacking are viable strategies. Just that, in 10-man, you need less EH to survive, and so mastery becomes less important - to the point that whatever is on your gear is going to be enough, unless you're undergeared.

[SurrealNight]

- Brewmaster tank leaves guild, joins another one, progresses farther than the previous guild because they have healers with a clue.

I migrated (ie was removed) from 10m to 25m in T14 and first week progressed quite a bit farther with new guild. Being in sync with your healers and co-tank can make a big difference in a raid group. So long as you are looking at your own play and filling any holes if you are still failing then they fault probably lies somewhere else in the raid.

---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 11:30 AM ----------

Both mastery- and crit-stacking are viable strategies. Just that, in 10-man, you need less EH to survive, and so mastery becomes less important - to the point that whatever is on your gear is going to be enough, unless you're undergeared.

Moving into 25m heroics I'm going to be watching my EH but running reforge scenarios I can only push an extra 6.7% mastery. I'm feeling doubtful that it will make the difference between life and death but we'll see.
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/5...0-7b8c73847c5f

[Nayre]

Moving into 25m heroics I'm going to be watching my EH but running reforge scenarios I can only push an extra 6.7% mastery. I'm feeling doubtful that it will make the difference between life and death but we'll see.

I'm admittedly speaking from a theoretical standpoint, as I'm not as progressed as you, and I'm in a 10m guild (working on Maeg right now, incidentally). I'm mostly going off of what other well-progressed BrMs are saying (both in 10 and 25 man). An example on this forum, who I'm sure will show up sooner or later, is Kaiadam. Looking at his armoury, he's got ~3k more mastery rating than crit.

Also, gogo gadget appeal to authority.

P.S., there's something funny about the >10 post URL ban, and being caught by quoting someone and having to edit the quote.

[Bryce]

I migrated (ie was removed) from 10m to 25m in T14 and first week progressed quite a bit farther with new guild. Being in sync with your healers and co-tank can make a big difference in a raid group. So long as you are looking at your own play and filling any holes if you are still failing then they fault probably lies somewhere else in the raid.

I know what you're talking about there and agree 100% lol.

And Kaidam is 25HM, so of course he's going to get more benefit from mastery than someone in a 10HM guild. I tried full out mastery in this 10M I'm in right now and the damage incoming just isn't worth losing that much crit for it. I was smoother to heal, but IMO it was a boring way to play lol.

I would love to go back to a 25M guild, but my work schedule right now kinda prevents me from finding anything decently good at weird hours, which is why I'm currently only 3/13H =/.

[Wreckage827]

I'm admittedly speaking from a theoretical standpoint, as I'm not as progressed as you, and I'm in a 10m guild (working on Maeg right now, incidentally). I'm mostly going off of what other well-progressed BrMs are saying (both in 10 and 25 man). An example on this forum, who I'm sure will show up sooner or later, is Kaiadam. Looking at his armoury, he's got ~3k more mastery rating than crit.

Also, gogo gadget appeal to authority.

P.S., there's something funny about the >10 post URL ban, and being caught by quoting someone and having to edit the quote.

That is due to the sheer amount of crit he already has. At higher Ilvls you have stupid amount of crit and you can allocate more of your extra resources to Mastery and still feel comfortable. He also runs with a very low haste build (around 4k haste) which takes more management of your abilities, which again allows him to put more of it into crit and mastery. If you go with more haste it allows you to mess up your priorities, but still be okay because you have higher energy regen (somewhat of a safety net).

Mastery isn't a bad stat to invest some into, but even in 25 man I couldn't see the necessity in stacking it out right, ever. Horridon is a perfect example of having some mastery and mostly crit. Usually during enrage it isn't the Triple punctures that tend to kill you, it is the melee after the triple puncture. If you have enough crit you are gaining elusive brew stacks at obscene rates. Mastery will help buffer the triple puncture.

This is all higher ilvl talk.

I would suggest to OP:

5000+ Haste
Hit Cap/Expertise Soft/Hard- whatever you feel necessary
Crit
Mastery

I still believe there is something either wrong with your priorities or your healers. Again, a log would help dramatically for us to help you further.