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  1. #1
    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Wrathion: Agent of a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy

    So I was thinking about Wrathion, and eventually the thought process led to a video:



    Essentially it's a history of Wrathion, why I like him, and a theory I figure would be interesting to discuss while we sit here doing nothing during maintenance.

    Essentially, the core of the theory comes down to the fact that Wrathion seemingly will do whatever it takes to stop the Legion, combined with his grey morality, and his fascination with the Titans. Basically, once we finish the Siege of Orgrimmar, Wrathion is going to reveal that his ultimate plan, which he hints at in the end of the new 5.3 legendary chain but never actually explains, is to bring the Burning Legion to Azeroth purposefully. He is going to open up portals to the Twisting Nether and start the next invasion of Azeroth personally.

    Because what better way to bring the Titans -- a group Wrathion has become increasingly-fanatical about -- back to Azeroth then to bring back the faction led by their former champion. In addition to this, the obvious chaos of the Legion's return would give the Old Gods another chance to move to try and reclaim the planet.

  2. #2
    Because what better way to bring the Titans -- a group Wrathion has become increasingly-fanatical about -- back to Azeroth then to bring back the faction led by their former champion. In addition to this, the obvious chaos of the Legion's return would give the Old Gods another chance to move to try and reclaim the planet.
    A few holes in the theory.

    The Titans don't know about the Legion in the scope you are thinking. Otherwise they would have appeared during the War of the Ancients. As far as the Lore goes, the Titans don't even really know about Sargeras. The only source that hinted they did was the RPG, which has been written off as non-canon by Blizzard. Because of this, opening portal to Azeroth for the Legion wouldn't really draw the attention of the Titans.

    That is even assuming the Titans still exist, since events in MoP hint that they have been killed.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    A few holes in the theory.

    The Titans don't know about the Legion in the scope you are thinking. Otherwise they would have appeared during the War of the Ancients. As far as the Lore goes, the Titans don't even really know about Sargeras. The only source that hinted they did was the RPG, which has been written off as non-canon by Blizzard. Because of this, opening portal to Azeroth for the Legion wouldn't really draw the attention of the Titans.

    That is even assuming the Titans still exist, since events in MoP hint that they have been killed.
    Refering to the "We must rebuild the final Titan!" soundbit? If so, I seriously doubt that has anything to do with the actual death of the Titans or their destruction. In Wotlk the Titans send Algalon personally to finish off the planet, so I doubt they are dead and gone.

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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    A few holes in the theory.

    The Titans don't know about the Legion in the scope you are thinking. Otherwise they would have appeared during the War of the Ancients. As far as the Lore goes, the Titans don't even really know about Sargeras. The only source that hinted they did was the RPG, which has been written off as non-canon by Blizzard. Because of this, opening portal to Azeroth for the Legion wouldn't really draw the attention of the Titans.

    That is even assuming the Titans still exist, since events in MoP hint that they have been killed.
    Huh, what? What do you mean he was one of the Titans and their best fighter they knew him and knew he went crazy and made the burning legion.
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  5. #5
    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    The Titans don't know about the Legion in the scope you are thinking. Otherwise they would have appeared during the War of the Ancients. As far as the Lore goes, the Titans don't even really know about Sargeras. The only source that hinted they did was the RPG, which has been written off as non-canon by Blizzard. Because of this, opening portal to Azeroth for the Legion wouldn't really draw the attention of the Titans.

    That is even assuming the Titans still exist, since events in MoP hint that they have been killed.
    I would really doubt that the Titans were completely unaware of the presence of the Legion to this extent. For a group that has no problem traveling across the universe and building wars, I find it very unlikely that they just missed the fact that a bunch of their planets are being destroyed. As for the War of the Ancients, It never really got that bad that they would have needed to return. Sure, looking at it from the Night Elves perspective, it was the verge of the end of the world, but ultimately the failsafes they put in place (The Aspects) in addition to the Well of Eternity (While causing the problem in the first place---was actually a solution too in some regard), the Titans weren't actually needed.

    Plus I find it quite unlikely they dropped all tabs on Sargeras after he went crazypants and left. Doesn't exactly seem like something a race of Gods would do.

    They're aloof. I sincerely doubt they would sniff trouble at the first sign and immediately ride in to safe the day. Considering they can wipe out planets without much of an issue, I would have to assume they wouldn't show up unless the rest of the world was already dead.

    Plus, I don't think I got the same impression from that scene with Wrathion that you did. I'm not sure "We must rebuild the final Titan" means that the rest have been destroyed. There are a bunch of theories as to what could be referred to, but I think the fact that we know so little ultimately makes them pretty irrelevant.

    But, still, if the Legion had returned, it gives the Old Gods another chance to escape and dominate the world in a way they wanted to. Similar to Deathwing's betrayal during the WotA, but worse, now that they know the morals are aware of their presence.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Refering to the "We must rebuild the final Titan!" soundbit? If so, I seriously doubt that has anything to do with the actual death of the Titans or their destruction. In Wotlk the Titans send Algalon personally to finish off the planet, so I doubt they are dead and gone.
    We won't know yet, but the "We have fallen" is the more important part of the soundbit, not the final titan part.

    Also, it's never said that Algalon was sent personally. He was summoned by the death of Lokan. For all we know, his entire summon was an automated process, one that was done without any Titan intervention at all. This actually makes more sense as he talks about how long he has been carrying out these purge processes on other worlds, so it seems he likely has not even seen the Pantheon in ages as he just beams from world to world when the buzzer goes off.

    Even when it comes to his "Omega Code", we learned in Cataclysm the code was being sent to the Halls of Origination in Uldum, and not some beam back to the Titans themselves. We can even go farther and take note that Algalon is now sitting in Ulduar just watching the planet at this point, which would likely have roused suspicion from the Titans if he was supposed to beam himself back at some point to check in. Again, it's very likely his entire role is automated just like every other creation of the Titans we have seen.

    I would further prove my point, but it would require spoiler-ing the new story about the origin of the Aspects.

    I would really doubt that the Titans were completely unaware of the presence of the Legion to this extent. For a group that has no problem traveling across the universe and building wars, I find it very unlikely that they just missed the fact that a bunch of their planets are being destroyed. As for the War of the Ancients, It never really got that bad that they would have needed to return. Sure, looking at it from the Night Elves perspective, it was the verge of the end of the world, but ultimately the failsafes they put in place (The Aspects) in addition to the Well of Eternity (While causing the problem in the first place---was actually a solution too in some regard), the Titans weren't actually needed.
    Why would they know? The leader of the Burning Legion was once a Titan. The Titans themselves only know about whats happening through computer systems and "failsafes". It stands to reason one of the Pantheon would know how to disable these failsafes when he steps through to destroy it. Thus the Titans would never know of the events. That is the thing about the Titans. They RARELY look back. They only look back when such is needed, and even then it has to be a huge issue.

    Plus I find it quite unlikely they dropped all tabs on Sargeras after he went crazypants and left. Doesn't exactly seem like something a race of Gods would do.
    Why not? How would you know what a race of Gods actually does? It's been pretty clear through all sources that the Titans are always look forward. They are rather aloof and don't like turning around unless it's important. The Burning Legion burning down planets and Sargeras becoming a demon god are pretty important things. If they did know about it, we likely wouldn't have a WC3 because the Pantheon would be clashing up on the Burning Legion constantly to prevent the universe from devolving into chaos. The fact they still keep "moving forward" means they are either ignorant, or really, really stupid.

    They're aloof. I sincerely doubt they would sniff trouble at the first sign and immediately ride in to safe the day. Considering they can wipe out planets without much of an issue, I would have to assume they wouldn't show up unless the rest of the world was already dead.
    Plus, I don't think I got the same impression from that scene with Wrathion that you did. I'm not sure "We must rebuild the final Titan" means that the rest have been destroyed. There are a bunch of theories as to what could be referred to, but I think the fact that we know so little ultimately makes them pretty irrelevant.
    Again, I am not talking about the "We must rebuild the Final Titan" part, I am talking about the "We have fallen" part. If it's not relevant, then WHO was saying they have fallen? Martians?

    Quote Originally Posted by kingriku View Post
    Huh, what? What do you mean he was one of the Titans and their best fighter they knew him and knew he went crazy and made the burning legion.
    They knew Sargeras, they don't know he is now a leader of a massive demon army of destruction. If they do, then the fact they have done nothing to stop him all these years shows incredible stupidity. They turned around the stop the Old Gods on a single planet, but they wouldn't even attempt to stop a universe spanning super army?

    Am I the only one that see "Titans know about Sargeras and the Burning Legion" as "The Titans are morons"?. Because that is what they are if they are doing nothing to stop millions of worlds from being burned down.
    Last edited by Grocalis; 2013-04-30 at 04:34 PM.

  7. #7
    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    I'm not exactly sure how Tyr would prove the Titans were gone...

    Algalon isn't supposed to "check in" with the Titans like every millennium or something. He's just there to activate when shit goes down and see what actually is wrong. Also was it ever confirmed that he was sending the code TO the halls? Or just that the Halls could be used to re-originate the world? His summoning was an automated process though, he definitely wasn't sent to the planet by the Titans because of Loken.

    And, I'm not exactly sure, again, if the "We are Fallen" is meant to represent the Titans (Because why...would the Titan stuff on Azeroth be recording the Fall of the Titans if they all left the planet after originating it?) or perhaps the Mogu/Watchers.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-04-30 at 04:29 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    I'm not exactly sure how Tyr would prove the Titans were gone...
    Tyr was created to help watch over Ulduar. It is made clear in WOTLK that the Watchers are not designed to leave the areas of Ulduar for any reason. The fact Tyr is wandering around in areas outside Ulduar means either the Titans are pretty lax about it, or they are not around to scold him for over-reaching his influence.

    And, I'm not exactly sure, again, if the "We are Fallen" is meant to represent the Titans (Because why...would the Titan stuff on Azeroth be recording the Fall of the Titans if they all left the planet after originating it?) or perhaps the Mogu/Watchers.
    Because as we have seen many times before, the Titans utilize "super-tech". If they suddenly came across something that likely obliterated them, they would send out messages to be intercepted by all computer systems on past worlds. A space S.O.S if you will. Since we are right now in Pandaria during this time, Wrathion gets bombarded with the message while playing around with the Thunder Forge, which is Titan tech. I am sure such a message could have also been picked up by the Forge of Wills or the Tribunal of Ages in Ulduar, but since that is a different continent we are no longer taking part, we will likely not see anything come of it.

    P.S. I wish to reiterate. The WC3 manual implies that the Titans don't know about Sargeras and the Burning Legion. Later on the RPG did in fact say they knew about the Burning Legion, but such sources were later made NON-CANON by Blizzard. Until we find a new source implying they know about the Burning Legion, the WC3 manual is really all we have. To help refresh people, here is the relevant quotes.

    "Apparently unaware of Sargeras’ mission to undo their myriad works, the Titans continued to move from world to world, shaping and ordering them as they saw fit."

    Until new lore comes to light showing that the Titans knew about the Burning Legion and were just, for the most part, ignoring them, it makes more sense to play off them being ignorant.
    Last edited by Grocalis; 2013-04-30 at 04:53 PM.

  9. #9
    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Tyr was created to help watch over Ulduar. It is made clear in WOTLK that the Watchers are not designed to leave the areas of Ulduar for any reason. The fact Tyr is wandering around in areas outside Ulduar means either the Titans are pretty lax about it, or they are not around to scold him for over-reaching his influence.
    The whole point is that the Titans are lax about what they create after they're gone. Gone as in gone from the planet, not dead.

    Because as we have seen many times before, the Titans utilize "super-tech". If they suddenly came across something that likely obliterated them, they would send out messages to be intercepted by all computer systems on past worlds. A space S.O.S if you will. Since we are right now in Pandaria during this time, Wrathion gets bombarded with the message while playing around with the Thunder Forge, which is Titan tech
    This seems like a real stretch with no other lore to support it. I don't see the point of Algalon saying he's going to inform the Pantheon if they're dead.

    As for Warcraft 3, I'm not even sure if we can say that the manual is a good canonical source, since so much of Warcraft 3 has been changed thusfar. It seems illogical for the Titans to create mechanisms which would detect if their planet was being so screwed up that the intervention was need to just utterly ignore Sargeras and the Legion.

    I also would find it odd that they'd slip in "Oh, yeah, the Titans are all dead" in an off comment by Wrathion during a quest chain without a lot of people freaking out canonically.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-04-30 at 05:02 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    The whole point is that the Titans are lax about what they create after they're gone.
    The point is "after they are gone".

    This seems like a real stretch with no other lore to support it.
    How so? We have seen countless times that the Titan's have various forms of interstellar communication and transmission. We knew that ever since that dwarf in the Wetlands accidently gave one a call on an ancient titan cell phone. They are also shown to be obsessed with Order, which is why they create so many failsafe systems to try and keep things moving after they leave.

    Why is is such a stretch to imagine that, should something occur that defeats them, that they wouldn't send out a universe wide message to activate whatever final failsafe they created? I think that fits the Titans to a science.

  11. #11
    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    The point is "after they are gone".
    From the planet. Their whole schtick is that they are aloof creators.

    Why is is such a stretch to imagine that, should something occur that defeats them, that they wouldn't send out a universe wide message to activate whatever final failsafe they created? I think that fits the Titans to a science.
    Because in how a piece of lore with such great impact on the universe of Warcraft is just delivered in a single sentence and then it's just moved on from. Wrathion basically is just like "Wow, that was weird" and then we never hear about that again.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-04-30 at 05:05 PM.

  12. #12
    The Titans dead: Through the burning legion? I doubt it; the Titans don't see much of a thread through the burning legion; or they even don't know about them. Sargeras is the leader of the burning Legion, and he even was one of the weaker titans. Sargeras was only a Vanir-Titan, a bronze-skinned that is far weaker than the Aesir-ones. Aman'thul is the leader of the titans and also the Master of Time; the Burning Legion is compared to the titans nothing; Sargeras was never defeated by the legion, only corrupted. But even now they could never even glance a titan. And i doubt that someone als as sargeras would even have a chance; and he is at least hidden. Even then before Sargeras could even touch the Titans, he would need to defeat Medivh and conquer Azeroth; if he couldn't even do this do you believe that he even would have a chance to defeat the titans.

    So no, the titans are not dead, but they are simply not interrested. They are eternal, timeless, limitless; and they look only forward.

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    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    Unless...the Old Gods corrupt the planet? Then it seems like they're "HOLY SHIT, GOTTTTTTA FIX THAT SHIZZ"

    I find it funny. I wonder if we'll ever see a further explanation of the teased information about the Old Gods not being native to Azeroth. Maybe that's why they freak out so much about them. I get tired of the very small tidbits of information at this point. After 4 expansions of hints here and there, it'd be nice to at least get some sizable chunk of information.

    The Wrathion chain is nice, but it really isn't anything more than more tidbits.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-04-30 at 05:16 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    in how a piece of lore with such great impact on the universe of Warcraft is just delivered in a single sentence and then it's just moved on from. Wrathion basically is just like "Wow, that was weird" and then we never hear about that again.
    That's how "foreshadowing" works. It's not supposed to be carried on yet, but once the event occurs, the sentence will make sense in the context. Right now, we are simply taking the events, the words, and the meaning behind those words to come up the the most likely theory.

    What is Wraithion doing when the event occurs? Jacking himself into Titan tech that allows him to see all the worlds of the Titans.
    What happens to Wraithion? He gets seemingly possessed by some outside influence that sends information to him.
    What was this information? "We have fallen. We must rebuild the final titan". Key words, "Fallen" as in someone has either been defeated or perished. "Final" as in the last of something. "Titan" as in the race in question.

    In the end, the fact remains it is forshadowing. If it does not involve the Titans, what do you think it is foreshadowing?

    I also would find it odd that they'd slip in "Oh, yeah, the Titans are all dead" in an off comment by Wrathion during a quest chain without a lot of people freaking out canonically.
    Remember, after the event everyone other then the player character forgets about it due to some mcguffin. This game is all about the player character being the special snowflake, thus why we are given privy to this knowledge, but our player character is SUPPOSED to be ignorant of the meaning, thus why he/she does not tell anyone. The meaning will become clear when Blizzard wants it to become clear for our player character, though it likely is glaringly clear to us as players right out the gate. You have to remember that as far as WoW in concerned, you are not your player character.
    Last edited by Grocalis; 2013-04-30 at 05:23 PM.

  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans MrHappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    A few holes in the theory.

    The Titans don't know about the Legion in the scope you are thinking. Otherwise they would have appeared during the War of the Ancients. As far as the Lore goes, the Titans don't even really know about Sargeras. The only source that hinted they did was the RPG, which has been written off as non-canon by Blizzard. Because of this, opening portal to Azeroth for the Legion wouldn't really draw the attention of the Titans.

    That is even assuming the Titans still exist, since events in MoP hint that they have been killed.
    If you saw warlock quest lines demons themselves were the police dogs of the titans punishing those that were using arcane magic.
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  16. #16
    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    That's how "foreshadowing" works
    That's not so much "Foreshadowing" as a huge important part of the history of the universe was just totally killed off. Foreshadowing would have been "Oh, they're having problems with something." Not, "Whelp, they're all dead!"

    If they actually just killed off the entire Pantheon and the rest of the Titans, that'd be really shitty storytelling and an obvious copout for people who wanted to see them in the game at some point. And then it just replaces one very vague question out there with another. "What are the Titans doing?" with "What killed the Titans?" It reminds me of why I stopped watching Lost. There's only so much you can walking through the forest you can do before you just lose interest.

    I couldn't answer what it is foreshadowing, because I don't really think it's that important of a piece of information as you do.
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-04-30 at 05:23 PM.

  17. #17
    I like his self-confidence, his knowledge(he knows really much about titans/dragons) and the way he plays with others like he's playing chess.
    To be honest I can still see him in 2 roles:
    -Powerful Dragon who helps us to fight with Burning Legion,
    -Even more powerful black dragon who is going to fulfill his father destiny,

    And I'm starting to like him even more after watching your video, it was nice to watch it.

  18. #18
    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    I don't think he'll ever become just an evil dragon. But I can really easily see him slipping into the role with the entire world that Illidan had with the Night Elves at the end of Warcraft 3.

    He'll do what he thinks is best to stop the Legion, but he'll piss us off in the process. I just really hope they never swing him into the villain column like they did with Illidan. (The more I keep thinking about Illidan, the more I dislike BC and its failure in storytelling).

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by KrazyK923 View Post
    That's not so much "Foreshadowing" as a huge important part of the history of the universe was just totally killed off. Foreshadowing would have been "Oh, they're having problems with something." Not, "Whelp, they're all dead!"
    "Foreshadowing" is simply a relevant plot point hinted, or outright stated earlier in a film, but not fully realized. Remember "The Matrix"? There is a scene were the Oracle tells Neo he is not the one because he is seems to be "waiting for a second life". That, to me, was pretty much a blatant foreshadowing that he was going to pull a Jesus Christ and die only to be reborn. That ended up being exactly what happened. A horror movie could have a character joke, "Oh man, I almost lost my head there." only for his head to get chopped off later in the film by the psycho, showing that the joke itself was literally foreshadowing how he died later.

    Actually, the ENTIRE legendary questline is foreshadowing for the next expansion and the story points that will appear in it. That was much of the intention.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrHappy View Post
    If you saw warlock quest lines demons themselves were the police dogs of the titans punishing those that were using arcane magic.
    You are thinking of whatever the Doom Guard were BEFORE they became demons. Since they were bound to the will of Sargeras, many of them followed him into darkness and became demons themselves. We may see some that are not corrupted in the future, but right now that is up in the air.

  20. #20
    Legendary! KrazyK923's Avatar
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    I agree with the foreshadowing about the Legion expansion, but not about the Titans all now apparently being dead. That really isn't a foreshadow.

    I think the problem with your comment is that the information about the Titans, assuming your argument is correct, isnt a hint at things to come, it's a blatant telling of "Titans are all dead, sorry." There was no hinting regarding the Titans. It would be "Yeah, they're all dead."
    Last edited by KrazyK923; 2013-04-30 at 05:52 PM.

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