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  1. #1

    Hows enh PvP lately?

    Just like in the topic...
    How the spec works in 2v2 and 3v3 comps?
    Got a hunter friend ready for some action... yet I dunno if it's possible to pull of something neat with Locks and priests as opponents...
    Woop Woop Woop...

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk
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    Are you saying that you are worried about lock/priest opponents? Didn't really understand. If that's what you are worried about... tremor is insane against those 2 classes. Enhance/Hunter is a pretty bursty comp, so when you do 3's you will want an offensive healer. (I'd suggest Resto druid to cyclone the shit out of the enemy healer, and he can even give the Sham solar beam.)

  3. #3
    unless you're aiming for R1, enh is playable. i'd say you'll have more success and fun in 2's than 3's. BM/enh, good o beastcleave, is still fun in 2's, but ever since the BW and Stampede nerf, it gets countered fairly easily. but if you save ascendance for the second BW, it's usually an excellent kill window.

    in 3's, enh just doesn't have the endurance or pressure to match the top comps. however, they are getting some big dmg buffs in 5.3 so that'll be nice.

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans DiscoGhost's Avatar
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    the new ascendance cd helps but im pretty sure its been the same as it has been for the last 6 seasons.
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  5. #5
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnbwtrout View Post
    in 3's, enh just doesn't have the endurance or pressure to match the top comps. however, they are getting some big dmg buffs in 5.3 so that'll be nice.
    I actually disagree with this - geared Enh shamans are pretty tanky IMO, and their pressure is actually quite high. What they don't have that seems to be needed lately is something relatively unique to their spec that is useful in PvP. It's not a survivability or pressure or burst issue, or utility - which they are particularly great at - it's more just, while they do all those things well, they don't have anything like Smoke Bomb or Necrotic Strike to make them feel unique.

    I guess the closest parallel is actually BM hunters - Enh Ascendance is like Stampede, it's a largely unpeelable and high damage burst phase - if you ever watch Diablous (multi-glad Enh) play, you see a lot of people (gladiators) try to get away from him during Ascendance, and they mostly manage that - but it doesn't matter - because of course he's now a ranged class during that. Compare to Ret Wings and you see why that can be a really powerful feature of the class - Rets are incredibly dangerous during their burst cycle in melee, so you don't be in melee of them, and then you're fine: the same scenario versus an Enh doesn't work out the same way.

    Their burst isn't bad at all either, he pretty routinely puts out 100-120k Maelstorm-Lightning Bolts in the midst of the usual flurry of fast attacks - it's not frost mage burst, but combined with a bursty class its more than enough for a dps-support spec to be contributing to a burst window. His real job isn't to blow people up after all, it's to strip the enemy team of buffs and shields, to spot heal when the healer gets CC chained (or tremor the healer out of fears), and to shut down enemy damage cycles using a mixture of grounding totems / wind shears / shamanistic rage (vs dot classes) / healingstorm procs / healing tide totems.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-05-01 at 03:27 AM.
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  6. #6
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    What Yvaelle said is actually what makes me think Enhance/Mage/Disc(or Resto Druid) will be a solid team next patch/season. Maybe not R1 viable, probably definitely 2.2k+

  7. #7
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    What Yvaelle said is actually what makes me think Enhance/Mage/Disc(or Resto Druid) will be a solid team next patch/season. Maybe not R1 viable, probably definitely 2.2k+
    Hmm ya, either of those would be very capable comps. I've been debating in my head which healer would be the better option - but they are both very good.

    Disc
    - Penance/Mindbender on burst windows/cycles
    - no DR with Fear or Mind Control
    - stronger healing output than Rdruid
    - Discs can be Undead (and have Fear Ward), Rdruids cant

    Rdruid
    - Cyclones + Roots + Typhoon are as strong or stronger than Fear+Mind Control
    - Rdruids don't go OOM, Discs do
    - Rdruids can juke polys / hexes, Discs cant
    - Symbiosis: Solar Beam <-> Spiritwalkers Grace, SwG isn't amazing for rdruids (apart from possibly Cyclones on the move?), but Solar Beam sounds *amazing* combined with Frost Nova / Roots
    - Symbiosis: Healing Touch <-> Ice Block, Ice Block is obviously amazing for the Rdruid since it not only gives them an incredibly potent defensive, it is also a trinket effect (via /cancelaura macro) - Healing Touch means everyone on the team has a heal if needed
    - Either Symbiosis could work depending on the enemy comp, and having that option (either Solar Beam or Ice Block/Healing Touch) is an additional level of flexibility which is a plus


    I think I'm leaning Rdruid because of the amount of CC. Fmage CC + Rdruid CC + Hex + Solar Beam sounds imbalanced. The Disc is obviously going to help you burst harder - and the team may need the shields to survive incoming burst better. Either comp has strong pluses, both could work - but I think an Rdruid might be the slightly stronger choice, just because of how devastating that Fmage/Enh/Tree CC chain sounds.

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    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-05-01 at 06:16 AM.
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  8. #8
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    I actually think Resto Druid could help burst more than the Disc can. I get like 50k Wraths with HOTW popped, and it lasts for like 45 seconds so it can be used offensively and defensively in the same use.

  9. #9
    Fmage disc enha was so fun to play during S6 with the old earthbind totem which gave small freedom buff to anyone in its range. By far the best season for enha ever. Had 96% win ratio at the end of the season, when we rushed for gladiator.

    I think the class is easilly playable, even on high levels, you dont get invited to RBGs at all, as Yvaelle said, we bring nothing to the table that other dosen't, what counts in RBGs, but in arenas, we are really good support / anyoying casters / dps class, which can work in some setups.
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  10. #10
    Dreadlord Castozor's Avatar
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    So how does Enha/Hpala/Hunter work in 3's? Me and 2 friends are considering that comp and since the alternative would be Rdruid/lock/Enha I think the first one would work better. In the few games I tried so far it seems okay but classes with immunities are incredibly annoying since my burst has such a long cd.

  11. #11
    today i learned enhance shammies are tanky.
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  12. #12
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHRONIClinex View Post
    today i learned enhance shammies are tanky.
    Well, I mean nobody is really tanky in todays burst - without cooldowns or heals we all die in a smoke bomb - but when I'm picking targets to kill Enh is one of my least favourite melee to kill. I'd much rather kill a Frost DK, Warrior, Rogue, or Ret (not in order because it depends on my class and my partners preferences beyond that) - than an Enh Shaman.

    That could be because I play DoT classes pretty much exclusively - and glyphed Shamanistic Rage is practically an I-win button versus my burst windows, if I throw all my effort into debuffing and fully dotting up an Enh Shaman, and they wipe all my dots and set me back 6-7 GCDs in the case of my Aff Lock, and 3-4 GCDs and 30-45 seconds of Shadow Orbs on my spriest; I lose my burst window, by the time I'm set up again our CC chain on the Enh's healer will be over. AMS and Cloak of Shadows are stronger cooldowns, but DKs and Rogues don't have the self-healing of Ancestral Swiftness and Healingstorm procs to contend with (or grounding totem) - which isn't trivial.

    I'm sure if I was still more oriented toward physical damage dealers (Warrior main in Vanilla and S1 and S2, Rogue main in S5), I'd probably think Enh shamans were easier targets - but I can't comment on that given I haven't played my Warrior or Rogue this expansion: maybe one of them can chime in about how Enh are free kills for their class or something.

    Rets have comparable self-healing, but Rets only get to wipe my DoTs once - the next time I set them up and get a full CC on their healer, they are in serious trouble - if I only get one really good shot at the kill target per minute, Shamanistic Rage may as well be Cloak of Shadows or Divine Shield as far as DoT classes are concerned.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-05-01 at 10:27 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Well, I mean nobody is really tanky in todays burst - without cooldowns or heals we all die in a smoke bomb - but when I'm picking targets to kill Enh is one of my least favourite melee to kill. I'd much rather kill a Frost DK, Warrior, Rogue, or Ret (not in order because it depends on my class and my partners preferences beyond that) - than an Enh Shaman.

    That could be because I play DoT classes pretty much exclusively - and glyphed Shamanistic Rage is practically an I-win button versus my burst windows, if I throw all my effort into debuffing and fully dotting up an Enh Shaman, and they wipe all my dots and set me back 6-7 GCDs in the case of my Aff Lock, and 3-4 GCDs and 30-45 seconds of Shadow Orbs on my spriest; I lose my burst window, by the time I'm set up again our CC chain on the Enh's healer will be over. AMS and Cloak of Shadows are stronger cooldowns, but DKs and Rogues don't have the self-healing of Ancestral Swiftness and Healingstorm procs to contend with (or grounding totem) - which isn't trivial.

    I'm sure if I was still more oriented toward physical damage dealers (Warrior main in Vanilla and S1 and S2, Rogue main in S5), I'd probably think Enh shamans were easier targets - but I can't comment on that given I haven't played my Warrior or Rogue this expansion: maybe one of them can chime in about how Enh are free kills for their class or something.

    Rets have comparable self-healing, but Rets only get to wipe my DoTs once - the next time I set them up and get a full CC on their healer, they are in serious trouble - if I only get one really good shot at the kill target per minute, Shamanistic Rage may as well be Cloak of Shadows or Divine Shield as far as DoT classes are concerned.
    I don't think Sham rage cleanses Devo, so you won't be set back orbs, but yeah. They also have a passive last stand - that's pretty nasty in today's CC-mania. Grounding totem is probably top 3 best utility spells in the game if the Shammy can aim it well, especially with spell alert addons "Poly" = grounded. Next poly = wind sheared, etc. Maelstrom healing is actually better than selfless healer, as selfless healer requires it to be another target. Enhance just doesn't get BoP.

    That being said... enhance gets frozen power/earthgrab to peel off teammates, and peels can be almost as strong as BoP's, especially novas when Holy Paladin representation is decreasing.

    All in all, with their damage being buffed next patch, Enhance could really work if they are with a ranged like mage or spriest. I'm lookin forward to it, might even level my shammy when 5.3 hits and mess around on him to gear him for next season.

  14. #14
    I dont know, i still think Rogue is lot harder to kill than Enhance, even as dot class. But i do wonder, how many enhance you run into in your arena games. When im playing arena, 5v5 or 3v3. I got trained to the ground 95% of the matches. In 5v5 its closer to 100%
    Last edited by Darksoldierr; 2013-05-02 at 05:21 AM.
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  15. #15
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksoldierr View Post
    I dont know, i still think Rogue is lot harder to kill than Enhance, even as dot class. But i do wonder, how many enhance you run into in your arena games. When im playing arena, 5v5 or 3v3. I got trained to the ground 95% of the matches. In 5v5 its closer to 100%
    Well in 5v5 my strategy for calling targets is usually to pick whatever target doesnt have an immunity (or near immunity) cooldown (bubbles, dispersions, dark bargains) - so Shamans are always very high on that list, but in 3's I plan around the enemy team using their defensives the first time - and killing them on the second cycle.

    I usually pick targets (3s) based on what is likely to die on the second pass, frost mages are generally bad targets because they can block/snap/block, so it takes 3-4 solid cycles to score the kill. Enh shamans go Shamanistic Rage->Astral Shift->Shamanistic Rage - and while its all only partial damage reduction (and dot wipe in the case of SR) - in 3's if used properly it's enough to deter a kill - which means like mages it takes 4 really solid burst cycles to bring them low (and obviously more or less depending on their skill with grounding/self-heals/wind shears/etc - true for all classes).

    By contrast a ret gets BOP, which turns off our rogue, but doesn't stop my dots or executes - his only really show-stopper is Divine Protection. A rogue gets Cloak->Vanish->Cloak usually - but we frequently score kills during our just after the vanish - it doesn't wipe dots, so they usually still have vt/pain/dp/rupture rolling on them, and I almost never see a rogue stay stealthed until they are fully healed again before re-opening. Warriors similarly get a shield wall, and that's about it for stopping my burst phases - obviously great use of mass spell reflect on my third mb (and the dp to follow) can stop burst by itself, just as grounding totem can do. Generally though, while I agree in 5's or RBG's I'd call the Enh (or any Shaman) as a good first kill target because of their relatively weak cooldowns, in 3's where you don't have the third/fourth DPS - the frequency of their cooldowns makes them undesirable: at least for my spriest and lock and unholy teams.
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  16. #16
    Well, i guess it comes down to the fact that i play nothing else than my shaman, and as melee/caster hibryd, its pain in the ass to kill warriors, rogues. But i think, it comes down to the shaman itself, if you fake swap on him, make use SR and swap on him back in 10sec, you dont even have to wait another cycle to bring him down. You just have to fake it, as enhance, if just a small breeze touches me, i has to use SR, else if i get silenced, im dead before silence runs out.

    But i do see your point, as dot class. Still think enhance is easier, than Ret or Warrior, both has +20-30k base hp, more armor agaisnt your rogue, instant stuns and overall better mobility to run off you.
    Last edited by Darksoldierr; 2013-05-02 at 10:45 AM.
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  17. #17
    Dot up the enha - let the rogue dance open with garrote, fear the healer at the same so he can't tremor. Follow up with cheap or kidney, shaman should be low already because he couldn't use shamanistic anyway.

    gg, collect points

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Helltrixz View Post
    Dot up the enha - let the rogue dance open with garrote, fear the healer at the same so he can't tremor. Follow up with cheap or kidney, shaman should be low already because he couldn't use shamanistic anyway.

    gg, collect points
    rogue solos enh in a garrote cheap blades dance. shortened that for you.
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  19. #19
    Exactly my point, enha is really weak if silenced
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I actually disagree with this - geared Enh shamans are pretty tanky IMO, and their pressure is actually quite high. What they don't have that seems to be needed lately is something relatively unique to their spec that is useful in PvP. It's not a survivability or pressure or burst issue, or utility - which they are particularly great at - it's more just, while they do all those things well, they don't have anything like Smoke Bomb or Necrotic Strike to make them feel unique.

    I guess the closest parallel is actually BM hunters - Enh Ascendance is like Stampede, it's a largely unpeelable and high damage burst phase - if you ever watch Diablous (multi-glad Enh) play, you see a lot of people (gladiators) try to get away from him during Ascendance, and they mostly manage that - but it doesn't matter - because of course he's now a ranged class during that. Compare to Ret Wings and you see why that can be a really powerful feature of the class - Rets are incredibly dangerous during their burst cycle in melee, so you don't be in melee of them, and then you're fine: the same scenario versus an Enh doesn't work out the same way.

    Their burst isn't bad at all either, he pretty routinely puts out 100-120k Maelstorm-Lightning Bolts in the midst of the usual flurry of fast attacks - it's not frost mage burst, but combined with a bursty class its more than enough for a dps-support spec to be contributing to a burst window. His real job isn't to blow people up after all, it's to strip the enemy team of buffs and shields, to spot heal when the healer gets CC chained (or tremor the healer out of fears), and to shut down enemy damage cycles using a mixture of grounding totems / wind shears / shamanistic rage (vs dot classes) / healingstorm procs / healing tide totems.
    Completely agree. Another top shaman to watch is Vanguards shaman Shamgaurds. He streams frequently on his shaman and does pretty amazing pressure.

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