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  1. #121
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    Whats debateable about your situation... you used an emulator that blocked out Warden... True or False?
    It's not cut/dry as that. "Blocking Warden" is nowhere in the ToS. So blocking it without knowing it's blocked is impossible to tell. Can you tell me if your system blocks Archon from being used for sure?

    And furthermore, doing something intentionally is much different from doing something unintentionally, or not even knowing it existed.

    Whats wrong with using the appeal process that already exists?
    The current appeal program is largely relegated to low level people, or automated systems even. After browsing a number of appeals back then (I was quite angry when it originally happened, and did a lot of research). A surprising number of bans don't even get looked at by a live person.
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  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Sometimes, but sometimes not. Statistics wise, more people are permabanned up front (usually for botting/duping) than warned. Warning is usually reserved for griefing/language problems.
    Statistics you just made up or ...? Well the or is kinda redundant.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-05-01 at 07:34 AM.

  3. #123
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    The criteria could certainly be more harsh. I was simply making suggestions.
    -3 year no infractions
    -$50 fee + Update to newest expansions + at least 1-2 months game time
    -All gold/boes stripped from old account
    -Possibly prevention of AH/Trade use for 3 months on old account (sort of like a starter/free account)

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 12:26 AM ----------


    A legitimate concern.

    There would definitely need to be monetary compensation, enough to offset both the work involved on blizzard's end, + profit


    No. This is already addressed. Anyone previously banned would need an already active, clean account. If they were going to bot/dupe again, they would have already done it without reactivating the old account.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 12:27 AM ----------


    Sometimes, but sometimes not. Statistics wise, more people are permabanned up front (usually for botting/duping) than warned. Warning is usually reserved for griefing/language problems.
    I am curious, making all this work for Blizzard and adding the immense risk for abuse of your rule change, exactly what benefit does Blizzard get from changing to your plan instead of staying with what exists?

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  4. #124
    Mechagnome Thulyn's Avatar
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    No. Stop breaking rules, then you wont have the "ban" problem. I can understand partly if you've been banned and you didn't do it.

  5. #125
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    It's not cut/dry as that. "Blocking Warden" is nowhere in the ToS. So blocking it without knowing it's blocked is impossible to tell. Can you tell me if your system blocks Archon from being used for sure?

    And furthermore, doing something intentionally is much different from doing something unintentionally, or not even knowing it existed.


    The current appeal program is largely relegated to low level people, or automated systems even. After browsing a number of appeals back then (I was quite angry when it originally happened, and did a lot of research). A surprising number of bans don't even get looked at by a live person.

    C. use any unauthorized third-party software that intercepts, “mines,” or otherwise collects information from or through the Game or the Service, including without limitation any software that reads areas of RAM used by the Game to store information about a character or the game environment; provided, however, that Blizzard may, at its sole and absolute discretion, allow the use of certain third party user interfaces;
    E. host, provide or develop matchmaking services for the Game or the Service, or intercept, emulate or redirect the communication protocols used by Blizzard in any way, for any purpose, including without limitation unauthorized play over the internet, network play, or as part of content aggregation networks;
    Just 2 sections I found in the TOU...

    Am certain that your Wine emulator that you got banned for falls under one... Yes? And regardless of whether you KNEW about Warden, you either didn't read the TOU (meaning ignorance of the rules isn't a defense) or, you read them and ignored them (again, definately not a defense).

    Archon, dunno... dont care.... Dont have to worry about it... because I'm following the rules.

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  6. #126
    I personally do use Wine, I have no intention of ever running Windows again.
    System Requirements are what the game requires to run, it does not say a thing about you not trying to run it on anything else, it says what they know it to run well on, its a pretty simple concept.
    Is using Wine breaking the ToS? I don't have a clue, I don't use it to cheat, I use it as they don't directly support my OS. If they choose to ban me for using something so I actually am able to play their games they lose me as a customer for each and every game they create, I won't be back :/
    and for the record Wine is *not* an emulator it actually stands for "Windows Is Not Emulated".

  7. #127
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Statistics you just made up or ...? Well the or is kinda redundant.
    Honestly, I don't have the time nor desire to dig up information I looked up 8 years ago. You're welcome to do the research yourself, however the statistics are entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    I am curious, making all this work for Blizzard and adding the immense risk for abuse of your rule change, exactly what benefit does Blizzard get from changing to your plan instead of staying with what exists?
    Money, of course.

    Don't get me wrong, as much as I'd LIKE something like this, every decision comes down to money, and the ONLY way an amnesty system would work, is if it was fiscally effective. If it brought in enough money through new accounts, or simply fees, it would be worth it. If, despite fees/subscriptions, it wouldn't cover the manpower + profit... it would never work.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 12:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by smileaf View Post
    Is using Wine breaking the ToS? I don't have a clue, I don't use it to cheat, I use it as they don't directly support my OS.
    Wine, at the time, did violate the ToS, as it made the game run not according to spec. However most people didn't know this (most people didn't, and do not even know what Warden is. It is not mentioned anywhere in consumer documents), and Blizzard didn't quite understand how Wine worked well enough to deal. They got a HUGE backlash due to it. As far as I'm aware (I haven't used it in years now), Wine is compatible, or at least excluded from Warden's freak out list. Don't quote me on that, though.
    Last edited by chazus; 2013-05-01 at 07:40 AM.
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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Honestly, I don't have the time nor desire to dig up information I looked up 8 years ago. You're welcome to do the research yourself, however the statistics are entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
    As this information obviously doesn't exist I wouldn't really want to burden you with actually delivering proof that most people who get permabanned do so on first offense. And these informations aren't irrelevant as you claim as already mentioned people have enough chances to get their shit together. Nobody needs scum getting back their accounts. Honest mistakes happen and should be fixed and also have been fixed specifically in the case of wine users - apart from that there is no need to act.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-05-01 at 07:46 AM.

  9. #129
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Honestly, I don't have the time nor desire to dig up information I looked up 8 years ago. You're welcome to do the research yourself, however the statistics are entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

    Money, of course.

    Don't get me wrong, as much as I'd LIKE something like this, every decision comes down to money, and the ONLY way an amnesty system would work, is if it was fiscally effective. If it brought in enough money through new accounts, or simply fees, it would be worth it. If, despite fees/subscriptions, it wouldn't cover the manpower + profit... it would never work.
    Do you truly think that they'll be able to make enough money off this rule change to cover the lost subscribers that get pissed that Blizzard is letting cheaters back in and quit... as well as cover the losses from potential subs that dont happen because of the bad press that this is certain to cause by letting cheaters back in. Somehow, I see this as a huge loss to Blizzard.

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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    Do you truly think that they'll be able to make enough money off this rule change to cover the lost subscribers that get pissed that Blizzard is letting cheaters back in and quit...
    considering that most users don't even really actually play the game nor would even realize that this is happening I definitely thing that it would have no negative financial impact.

  11. #131
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    Just 2 sections I found in the TOU...
    Im certain that your Wine emulator that you got banned for falls under one... Yes?
    Firstly. Neither of those mention Warden.
    Secondly, after reading those... No, Wine does not violate either of those, as far as I can tell.
    Archon, dunno... dont care.... Dont have to worry about it... because I'm following the rules.
    You don't know. That right there is my point.
    I didn't know about Warden (and most people dont) either, and was following the rules. Funny, that.

    PS: There's no such thing as Archon, I made it up to prove a point. You can't tell if you're blocking/preventing something or not, if you don't know it exists.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 12:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    that Blizzard is letting cheaters back in
    Sigh.

    Again, you seem to be missing the point. No cheaters are 'getting back in'. None. Zero. Nada. It would only be available to people already playing the game for an extended time. If any 'cheaters' were included in the amnesty system, they are -already playing the game-. Right now. As we type this. They're in Isle of Thunder. They're in Throne of Thunder. They're doing BGs. Right now. And have been for months. And will be for months. If they wanted to cheat, they already are right this very second.

    Allowing them access to their old account, I -highly doubt-, would incentivize them to cheat again, especially when they have two accounts on the line now, instead of one.

    Heck. Put a nail in the coffin. A violation with an Amnesty Account shuts down your entire battle.net account, and all games on it. Not just WoW.
    Last edited by chazus; 2013-05-01 at 07:50 AM.
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  12. #132
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Firstly. Neither of those mention Warden.
    Secondly, after reading those... No, Wine does not violate either of those, as far as I can tell.

    You don't know. That right there is my point.
    I didn't know about Warden (and most people dont) either, and was following the rules. Funny, that.

    PS: There's no such thing as Archon, I made it up to prove a point. You can't tell if you're blocking/preventing something or not, if you don't know it exists.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 12:46 AM ----------


    Sigh.

    Again, you seem to be missing the point. No cheaters are 'getting back in'. None. Zero. Nada. It would only be available to people already playing the game for an extended time.
    Look... they dont have to announce what program they are using... seems that the TOU is crystal clear about the use of emulators... Sorry if you are either unwilling or unable to realize that.

    I get it... you are hell bent on this after being given a raft of reasons why its a bad idea... Tell me something... have you even attempted to appeal this? When did you last attempt appeal this?

    As far as whether YOU can determine that your emulator fell under the TOU... BLIZZARD thought it did...

    pss. I dont need to know if I"m blocking something or not... if I"m following the TOU then I have not a damn thing to worry about.

    Yes, cheaters would get back in... by using the same sob story you are, 'boo hoo I didn't know, wa wa wa, why me I"m a good person, bla bla bla'

    You dont think that most of the folks banned turned around and created new accounts? You can sure as hell believe that a good many of htem did.
    Last edited by Seranthor; 2013-05-01 at 07:52 AM.

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  13. #133
    Honestly if you account was banned back in 2005, it has probably been purged as blizzard has updated their database. You might be able to get your character back, but they would just be given some crappy greens...

    On the other side, I don't think people who have been banned should be allowed to reactive or transfer their old toons. I don't care if you've played for a year without a warning. If you get banned it is usually for really good reason, plus I haven't heard an instance of Blizz perma banning anyone without a warning first...

    So in short, you were probably warned, you continued to break the rules, and your account was banned and is now gone.

    Does it suck? sure it does
    Is it fair? maybe, maybe not, but more often than not the player deserve being banned.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by catbeef View Post
    everyone giving a flat out no are the people who believe every single person found guilty in a court of law actually committed the crime.

    everyone makes mistakes, including the justice disher-outers, detectives, investigators, etc. it is part of being human.
    Not true. The person who is banned can readily appeal the ban multiple times. If they don't, then that is their own fault since they received an email telling them exactly how to appeal. Each time they appeal, a new person looks over the logs Blizzard has to see if the ban might have been placed in error, and if it was, they remove the ban.
    when all else fails, read the STICKIES.

  15. #135
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    seems that the TOU is crystal clear about the use of emulators... Sorry if you are either unwilling or unable to realize that.
    I worded it poorly, but Wine is not an emulator.
    Tell me something... have you even attempted to appeal this? When did you last attempt appeal this?
    Several times. I appealed for it about once every year for about 3 years. I've given up.
    As far as whether YOU can determine that your emulator fell under the TOU... BLIZZARD thought it did...
    "Thought" being the key word. Blizzard admitted, and apologized for banning Wine users after investigating the issue (I'm looking for the original article regarding it). However a good third of the users were not unbanned.
    Yes, cheaters would get back in... by using the same sob story you are, 'boo hoo I didn't know, wa wa wa, why me I"m a good person, bla bla bla'
    Um. Dude, seriously. Are you not understanding? It can only be done by people with already active account. For a year. if you want to go by 'my sob story'... I'm already playing. I'm queued for Lei Shen right now. How am I 'getting back in'?. I'm in the game right now. As would 100% of the people in the proposed program. Part of the criteria, and possibly the most important part, is proving to be responsible for a long time. A year, at least.
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  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    I think banning needs to be reviewed more thoroughly after the process because there is certainly larger amount of wrongfully banned people than their should be.

    I don't think there should be a set amnesty system though, but as part of my desire for more thorough review on bans something along the lines of that would obviously factor in. Generally someone that's been playing clean for 4 years and gets banned for something sketchy should be reviewed a bit deeper.
    That is the entire point of the appeals process and it works and works quite well. Go take a look at the customer support forums sometime. Many people who were wrongfully banned due to false positives through Warden are typically unbanned within hours of appeal if not minutes. Yes people get wrongfully banned all the time (and there seems to be an upsurge of it recently for some reason) but if you are innocent Blizzard has no problem reviewing the case and overturning the ban. Anyone who ends up still banned is usually guilty and Blizzard has ample evidence to back it up.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 03:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    Yes. I am. Exactly that, actually.

    I actually did, and can't really think of any way to abuse that off the top of my head, outside of things that would have -already- been done on the active account.
    Are you kidding me? You don't see a problem with people who don't have an issue with cheating being able to get away with it by buying their account back? No one could possibly be this ignorant.

  17. #137
    if you got banned you deserved it, doesn't matter if you have a 10 year subscription after that. a closed account stays closed. there's no redemption for people that get banned as they don't deserve it.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by endersblade View Post
    I'd be all for it. I could get my original account back :-)

    For the record people, not ALL banned accounts were banned because WE broke the rules. Believe it or not, if you get hacked too much, Blizzard will close the account permanently. If your account gets hacked and you can't, for whatever reason, supply the info to unlock it, it gets banned. If you unknowingly accept hacked items or gold, you can get permanently banned. I could probably list off 100 or more other reasons that, through no purposeful fault of your own, your account can be permanently shut down.

    Granted, mine got shut down for botting, so yes, I'm all about getting my account back!
    Yeah no. I call bullshit. Blizzard in the past has implied that repeated account compromises may result a player not being able to get any more restorations but they don't perm ban over it. All of you spouting this ignorant crap need to actually read over Blizzard's policies and all the blue posts in the customer support forums that clarify said polices. Am I saying Blizzard can't do things better and that things shouldn't be changed? Nope. What I am saying however is I understand and comprehend their rationale for why things are the way they are. The first step to getting things improved is understanding how it works in the first place.

  19. #139
    The Lightbringer NatePsychotic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chazus View Post
    My bad, I thought people were smarter than that. Wine is just a windows emulator for unix, which I was using at the time. Super malicious.
    Did you get in with Account Services to tell them the situation and provide proof of said program not being malicious?

  20. #140
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsychotic View Post
    Did you get in with Account Services to tell them the situation and provide proof of said program not being malicious?
    Yes, I did. But this is not about me getting my account back. I know I'm not getting it back, nor am I bothering to try. It's been eight years. O_o

    The discussion is purely about a suggested system, and not about how any one person's account got frozen.
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