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  1. #21
    "There is no need..." is a cop-out and a non-argument. There was no need for dual-spec. There still isn't. There's a clear double standard in works...

    Both changes add nothing but convenience.
    Dual-spec was introduced because it added convenience.
    Tri-spec will not be introduced because it adds convenience.

    It doesn't make sense.

    Uniqueness is also a non-argument. Talent trees are shared between specs and you are already capable of being 2/3 of all your potential specs at once. Every class (except Druids) are, literally, 5 minutes from being completely identical in spec choices.

    What do those 5-10 minutes of respec'ing, reorganizing action-bars, etc... add to the game? Inconvenience.
    What does tri-spec offer? Convenience.

    There's no solid reason NOT to add it. It removes nothing you'd want and it adds what you need. Convenience. What's the problem?
    If you're against tri-spec you better prepare a damn good case supporting the introduction of dual-spec, if you don't want to be labeled a hypocrite. You can't make one out to be OK while claim the other one would break the game. They're both the same.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Erilyn View Post
    I just don't get it, I just don't.

    IMO there isn't a single good arguement for not implementing Tri-Spec, and some pretty goods ones for it.

    The only thing not having Tri-spec costs us is time and gold. As far as I am aware, tedius re-specs and farming gold aren't fun. Blizz like us to have fun right?

    We still have 3 specs, we can still use all 3 specs, not having Tri-Spec offers no uniqueness, the arguement is just ridiculous. I don't sit there and say "I am an ASSAS/SUB Rogue - what type are you?" I simply choose the 2 specs I use most often and then fork up gold and waste time re-specing when I want to use the third spec for something. I am going to guess that this is what ALL rogues (and all classes in fact do). You either put up with the pain when you want to make use of that third spec Blizz put (some) time and effort into making for us and presumably want us to play (else why have it??) or you simply don't bother and either don't engage in the activity you need that spec for or work around it (usually sub-optimally) with the other specs you have.

    It is even worse for hybrids. There is nothing unique about spec-ing to heal, or spec-ing to DPS, or spec-ing to Tank. There is no choice there at all.

    But the fact he picks rogues as the example, yeh, that really made me laugh too and then I stopped and sat there puzzled - it makes no sense!!

    Using uniqueness as arguement when there are such limited options anyway ...... yeh, I am back to, I just don't get it!! In fact if you count talents and glyphs as part of the spec, Tri-Spec actually offers a LOT more uniqueness.

    Though ofc, no matter how many specs we have.... yeh it ain't going to feel "unique"

    When I saw the tri-spec noise I was hoping, oh well, at least there is always action bar saver!
    Theres already plenty of guilds that want you to get 2 specs raidready or they will get someone else when they can. As a person who plays a hybrid and only wants to play 1 spec of the 3 this is an issue.

    You are forcing other players into a position they don't want to be in just so you can save gold (let's be honest, I don't even know anyone who bothers getting a 3rd spec or even trying it.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    they already DO feel the same nothing would change if we had tri spec.
    Nothing "gameplay" wise. But it would open up people's versatility thus increasing Pvp+Pve activities. Would be a huge quality of life improvement. People can have all the talent changes they want, it's just uber annoying and time consuming now.

  4. #24
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    This is why Trion using hexa-spec in RIFT.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Facepalmer3 View Post
    Nothing "gameplay" wise. But it would open up people's versatility thus increasing Pvp+Pve activities. Would be a huge quality of life improvement. People can have all the talent changes they want, it's just uber annoying and time consuming now.
    well since the start of mop i havn't done any pvp except the legendary quest BG's i just had 2 pve specs because they kind of were mandatory to progression assassination/combat and we all know those 2 specs are not the best to pvp with i wouldn't mind if i had tri spec so i could do some pvp once in a while i pretty much just login to raid 3 times a week thats 9 hours in total
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  6. #26
    Actually, there is no need for tri-spec or dual spec right now (there never was, it was only more convenient) But with the new talent system we should try a new aproach. What we need is to swap specs more easly, that can be achieved simply making swapping between them as easy as changing a talent or a glyph, in the spot at the cost of a reagent.

    That would bring the problem of action bars and key binds, but then they could improve more the system so that we have a "profile saver" that saves spec + gear + action bars & keybinds. Combining both we have a more much more flexible system than dual or tri spec, although we can easily say that it fails for the same reason that tri-spec fails (from their point of view, not mine).

    Anyway, GC is a damn good troll, he just troll'd the whole rogue community... again.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I laughed at that example, of all classes, he would have to pick rogues
    Yeah, done the same.

    Anyway, i think trispec is useless. Dual spec was thought because old talent trees were a "chore" and your spec was = your talent tree. Having two slots was extremely useful since you could have the PvE spec and the PvP spec together (i'm talking about rogues - other classes with multiple roles would have an use for more room).

    Dual spec came in a time where speccing a char took some time, and there ws basically THE spec for PvP and PvE.

    Now the idea is completely the opposite - the specs are just a "click this button" thing, and talents are the same for each spec. We already have the possibility to change the talents on the fiy with tomes. So basically we already have "infinite specs". I don't think we will see a tri spec. More likely a change on the fly for class specialization like we can already do with talents.

    But this will make all characters truly equal - everyone can do everything. The only difference is that we don't need to run to a trainer but we can do it by ourselves.

    Dual spec is just a thing that was useful with the old system; now it's role is way more marginal.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-02 at 12:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    I'm not sure I ever saw uniqueness in the talent trees.
    The thing is that until MoP talent trees = specs. Now specs and talents are two distinct things hence the real value of a "multi"spec saver is way minor.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by pmgbro View Post
    This dude is a complete moron. That example worked for vanilla because we ACTUALLY HAD TALENT TREES. /facedesk. He seems to forget in MoP every skill is handed to you without any thought what so ever. There is no uniqueness.
    the only uniqueness given to a rogue is to die over and over by sophisticated cheats hacks that want to mind control you. this is my opinion but what is not stopping them from doing so?

    the reason why many others don't like the class is because they feel helpless when combating a group of enemies; there is nothing to stop them because of targeting macros etc. it's all built into the game from the programming language. to this point everything is automated from programming bots etc. the idea of getting a mental workout the brain burning calories from gaming they find a way around it with using the programming to autoplay for them. it is a valid point of view from the mind to discuss.

    to add to the discussion actually trispec picking class mechanics that work to build your own spec. i would be sub delta and grab the off hand energy regen and regen from combat. in my build. to my ends i would be able to use my cpgen for burst and consistantly eviscerate to take my dps relative 100,000 dps for pvp.
    Last edited by regularcustomer; 2013-05-02 at 09:20 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by regularcustomer View Post
    the only uniqueness given to a rogue is to die over and over by sophisticated cheats hacks that want to mind control you. this is my opinion but what is not stopping them from doing so?

    the reason why many others don't like the class is because they feel helpless when combating a group of enemies; there is nothing to stop them because of targeting macros etc. it's all built into the game from the programming language. to this point everything is automated from programming bots etc. the idea of getting a mental workout the brain burning calories from gaming they find a way around it with using the programming to autoplay for them. it is a valid point of view from the mind to discuss.

    to add to the discussion actually trispec picking class mechanics that work to build your own spec. i would be sub delta and grab the off hand energy regen and regen from combat. in my build. to my ends i would be able to use my cpgen for burst and consistantly eviscerate to take my dps relative 100,000 dps for pvp.
    Dude, you must be smoking some good shit.

    OT: Rogues are already all the same, regardless of spec. You can see this in every raid help thread; their roster is listed with a spec next to every class except "Rogue". We're probably the worst example he could have used for the argument of trispec causing everyone of a class to be the same.

    I assume what he meant (and couldn't get across with limited characters via Twitter) was a Prot/Ret pally is different than a Ret/Holy pally or a Blood/UH DK is different from a Frost/Blood DK and trispec would make spec less of a choice since you could have all 3 just a 10s cast away; e.g. every pally could be a Prot/Ret/Holy pally and every DK could be a Blood/UH/Frost DK.

    I don't agree with the above argument, but I think some of you are reading way too much into this just to throw some shit at GC. He thinks people choose a spec and that's it; they're an "Assassination Rogue" or a "Ret Paladin" and nothing else with their secondary spec rarely or never used and people never changing their primary/secondary spec. This is just not the case for me or the majority of people I play with. He seems to believe that the gold/actionbar redo is enough of a barrier that it lets people define their character by their spec and creates a fun, meaningful choice. What it really does is make it really annoying to change to that third spec when you want it, which is not fun.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    The thing is that until MoP talent trees = specs. Now specs and talents are two distinct things hence the real value of a "multi"spec saver is way minor.
    Except a "third spec" saves a lot more than your spec. It saves talents, glyphs, and bar settings. A "third spec" would be hella useful, if you're into having a third spec that is.

    I feel like people come at this from the angle of "I don't use more than two specs...so a third spec is USELESS." Well that's nice for you but maybe, just maybe, you can expand your focus beyond yourself for 2.3 seconds and think that somewhere out there, in this wide world of ours, there's another person, possibly even a group of people, a large group, who might enjoy it, and make use of it.
    Last edited by Lemons; 2013-05-03 at 09:10 PM.

  11. #31
    Personally I think in a World of Warcraft where you can get epics thrown at you, solo clear instances while leveling and get to grow herbs on a farm, get every skill without visiting a trainer, can swap talents everywhere with almost no cost and in no time... well, I think its kinda strange to justify any argument against a trispec.

    Why can't I use all my specs without visiting a trainer and rearranging all my keybinds? I would love to use a PvP spec now and then, or use a healing spec on my dd/tank monk...

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    I assume what he meant (and couldn't get across with limited characters via Twitter) was a Prot/Ret pally is different than a Ret/Holy pally or a Blood/UH DK is different from a Frost/Blood DK and trispec would make spec less of a choice since you could have all 3 just a 10s cast away; e.g. every pally could be a Prot/Ret/Holy pally and every DK could be a Blood/UH/Frost DK.

    I don't agree with the above argument, but I think some of you are reading way too much into this just to throw some shit at GC. He thinks people choose a spec and that's it; they're an "Assassination Rogue" or a "Ret Paladin" and nothing else with their secondary spec rarely or never used and people never changing their primary/secondary spec. This is just not the case for me or the majority of people I play with. He seems to believe that the gold/actionbar redo is enough of a barrier that it lets people define their character by their spec and creates a fun, meaningful choice. What it really does is make it really annoying to change to that third spec when you want it, which is not fun.
    Much respected Squirl: I think you are being harsh with GC here. I agree with you, the people I raid with do change specs, but there are folk out there who are "just shadow priests" or "Just a ret pally." Blizzard would like to support their decision just as they would support a rogue who said, "I'm only Assassin" or "I'm only combat". They want that to be an OK decision or at minimum they pay lip service to the idea.

    Still, the bottom line is that this is pretty much just a convenience issue and they should probably just go ahead and let us pick our spec. Or... If they are serious, really serious about "uniqueness" then they should make it so that we can only switch specs once per weekly reset. Then we really are stuck in our specs. Players would hate that idea, blizzard would agree, and we'd be back with "it's just a convenience issue, why are you making it out to be a big deal?"

  13. #33
    I remember when they introduced mop talents and said something like this: "we want you to sit near another rogue and be different from him" lawl 95% of rogues use the same spec for pve by now, do they really pretend ppl to pick cheat death (crap version of cauterize) over elusiveness, shuriken toss over anticipation or nightstlaker over shadow focus? By now rogue spec is MORE COOKIE CUTTER THAN EVER, back in the days u could make odd specs for particular encounters (e.g. survival sub on hc valiona), now your only choice is between no adds (anticipation) or adds (mfd)...
    Good job GC, really...

  14. #34
    While i don;t think tri-spec is really necessary, i likewise don't actually see a problem with it either. Talent choices, glyph choices are already meaningless. You pick the ones best suited for the fight, regardless whether or not you actually like it or find it fun. Most classes have 1 dps spec that does well in PvE or PvP and the vast majority of the player base will play that. So his Rogue 1 and 2 being different is not a great argument.

    Tri-spec obviously benefits hybrids the most. There's no such thing right now as a PvE or PvP spec, because you can change your talents and glyphs so easily you don't need a separate spec just for it. Core spells and abilities don't actually change. My holy paladins spells are key binded exactly the same for PvE and PvP.

    As for the question of where to draw the line? Its pretty obvious. Classes with 3 specs have tri-spec. Druids get 4.

    Can anyone here point out any real negative tri-spec would cause? I only see positives. It adds convenience that most people use addons for currently and it might get people to try more than their current 2 specs. I don't see any game breaking problems with that.
    Last edited by Xucuroz; 2013-05-04 at 10:31 PM.
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  15. #35
    Most people don't understand his comment, at all. His argument is, that the Specalization-Feature had the purpose of defining your character. With Dual-Spec, it may be watered down, but it still is two out of three: you may recognize that Blizzard introduced Dual-Spec solely because of the old-Talent System.

    With Tri-Spec, you choose...basically nothing. You have all three Specs at your disposal, anytime. Then why even HAVE a Specalization-System ???

    Just cut it! Have one Spec per Class! And what would this change? Nothing. FotM would still be FotM. The strongest Specs would still dominate the weakest.


    The day Tri-Spec gets introduced, im done with WoW. I want to play an RPG, not fucking "Raid-Manager". I was totally turned off by Dual-Spec, WoW already lacks huge in Character-Development.... tri-spec would be the nail in the coffin.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    You have all three Specs at your disposal, anytime.
    And that is how it has been working since day 1. We already have all three specs at our disposal, at any given time we want. The game does not block you the other options the moment you choose one spec. Tri-spec would only get rid of the process of traveling, paying, rearranging skill bars, maybe keybinds... etc, nothing else would happen, quality of life improvement, that's it.

    Those who want to play with 3 specs, already can and already do the same way they did it back in vanilla & tbc. And those who like to only play one spec, already do and will always do, no matter what. I know people who already has the same spec twice with different glyphs or talents, just for pvp and pve or simply because they usually swap a lot between one or two talents and really don't use any other spec or one is for raiding and the other for questing.

    Stop thinking that having the choice means that everyone would play 3 specs, it won't happen, people plays how they want, 66g in the way or not.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    And that is how it has been working since day 1. We already have all three specs at our disposal, at any given time we want. The game does not block you the other options the moment you choose one spec. Tri-spec would only get rid of the process of traveling, paying, rearranging skill bars, maybe keybinds... etc, nothing else would happen, quality of life improvement, that's it.

    Those who want to play with 3 specs, already can and already do the same way they did it back in vanilla & tbc. And those who like to only play one spec, already do and will always do, no matter what. I know people who already has the same spec twice with different glyphs or talents, just for pvp and pve or simply because they usually swap a lot between one or two talents and really don't use any other spec or one is for raiding and the other for questing.

    Stop thinking that having the choice means that everyone would play 3 specs, it won't happen, people plays how they want, 66g in the way or not.
    So, they could just make the "tomes of respeccing specs" sold by X npc for 40g each and you have everything. Then all class trainers would feel really really alone leading to mass suicide.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    So, they could just make the "tomes of respeccing specs" sold by X npc for 40g each and you have everything. Then all class trainers would feel really really alone leading to mass suicide.
    "tome of rspeccing specs" + "skillbar/keybinds manager" + "gear manager" and we'll have just the flexible spec/talent/glyph system we need, much more than we could have with dual or tri-spec actually

    And for those poor class trainers more class quests, even if they are not big questchains but only some minor tasks in some capital city, maybe one class quest for each talent tier so it fits the theme of that tier... whatever, but they don't have to comit mass suicide!!

    edit: think about their role now... "sooo... you are level a 90 rogue, you learned all that shit by yourself and you want me... first time we met, to help you erase those memories so you can learn all by your own some new stuff?"
    Last edited by Geckoo; 2013-05-06 at 11:31 AM.

  19. #39
    Third spec is next to useless for rogue coz combat and subt are cr*p for pve and my os is a pvp sub spec that i use in my rare random bgs...
    with that said my opinion about GC picking rogues as an example is due to the fact that this guy is OBSESSED with rogues, period.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Geckoo View Post
    And that is how it has been working since day 1. We already have all three specs at our disposal, at any given time we want. The game does not block you the other options the moment you choose one spec. Tri-spec would only get rid of the process of traveling, paying, rearranging skill bars, maybe keybinds... etc, nothing else would happen, quality of life improvement, that's it.

    Those who want to play with 3 specs, already can and already do the same way they did it back in vanilla & tbc. And those who like to only play one spec, already do and will always do, no matter what. I know people who already has the same spec twice with different glyphs or talents, just for pvp and pve or simply because they usually swap a lot between one or two talents and really don't use any other spec or one is for raiding and the other for questing.

    Stop thinking that having the choice means that everyone would play 3 specs, it won't happen, people plays how they want, 66g in the way or not.

    You underestimate social pressure, as always in these kinds of arguments. I like to raid Heroic-Mode, and i also like to play only Specs i enjoy.
    Back in the day (Vanilla and BC) you weren't expected to respec every Boss, since it was such a great hassle to go through, it was too costly for your Raids Time: Optimization through Gear, Add-Ons, Keybinds and so on. Dual spec resolved the Organization-Issue single handedly, outside of Gear: and i don't know of a single Heroic Raiding Guild who nowadays doesn't expect you too fully utilize the Dual Spec Feature.
    In a way, inconvenience was a protection mechanism against peer pressure, which was taken away.

    Today you can change Talents and Glyphs on a whim and guess what: with Tri-Spec, any Specalization. Optimization is resolved through Reforging thanks to a Mount and Add-Ons in seconds, and Gearing is more convenient than ever.
    When the game officially supports Tri-Spec, People will expect you to use it. And i for sure don't want to.
    Last edited by Nouk; 2013-05-06 at 03:16 PM.

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