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  1. #1
    Field Marshal Kalandrios's Avatar
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    Lay on Hands Going on Cooldown and Not Healing

    Good evening,

    I wanted to see how many paladins are experiencing and issue with Lay on Hands going on cool down, and not providing the healing.

    I understand World of Warcraft is a game of latency, and with my ~90 world latency, I have experienced this 5 or 6 times on every member of my raid.

    Additionally: I am not Lay on Hands-ing the wrong target, or someone with forbearance.

    Would it be too much to ask for a check to re-fund the cool down if the healing did not take on the player it was cast on, and they died?

    Thanks for any input.
    Gladiator Clamsodad the Celestial Defender
    Gladiator Zerstiren, Hand of A'dal

  2. #2
    has happened since Classic, along with Holy Shock. Just seems to be a bug that blizzard has never squashed.

  3. #3
    Happens to me all the time. Just have to live with it I guess, it's been like that for as long as I can remember.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord .Nensec's Avatar
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    It doesn't specifically have anything to do with LoH or HS in particular. It really is just latency. Not connection latency but the simple a-sync nature of the game.

    You cast the spell, the server accepts your request and sends it off to the next process. The next process checks for conditions ( cd, forb, range, etc. ) and accepts it, sending back the OK to the server which then puts your spell on cooldown while at the same time sends another request to another process that does the healing. That process then determines the amount of healing it will do, checking the conditions again and adjusting the spell ( overhealing, debuffs, healing absorbs, etc. ) and finally it sends the result to the server.

    It is between those last 2 that your target dies, talking likely < 5ms of time here to process those things if that even. The first condition check resulted true, putting your heal on cooldown. The second condition check returned false, since the target is dead.

    Now in essence it will be as easy as to put in -another- check on that 2nd condition check to go back to the original process and remove the cooldown. This is likely what they had in mind to do too but as this is purely a way of how I think the system works and not actually in a true representation of how the system works I have no idea if this simple solution can even work without a big rewrite of things. WoW's combat system is after all very complex, likely one of the better ones out there in any RPG, as it has been refined many times already. Because of the way that the system works as it does, players can react extremely fast to things very fluently but does introduce these kind of problems.
    Last edited by .Nensec; 2013-05-01 at 04:17 AM.

  5. #5
    Field Marshal Kalandrios's Avatar
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    Thank you for the response everyone, and .Nensec in particular.

    I understand that latency is a thing; and that there is no real fix for it.

    What I would like to see if a refund on the cool down. Oh well.
    Gladiator Clamsodad the Celestial Defender
    Gladiator Zerstiren, Hand of A'dal

  6. #6
    Pandaren Monk
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    Are you talking about dying with LoH not healing you, yes? I actually have this happen with bubble sometimes too (there's like a hidden .5 cast time while the bubble is actually applying the buff, and I get executed and such in that window sometimes). At least, that's what I assume happens because I look down and its on CD and I'm dead, lol.

  7. #7
    Field Marshal Kalandrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Are you talking about dying with LoH not healing you, yes?...
    It has never happened to me. It is always on other players, typically with a really high damage mechanic such as Frost Bite on heroic council, or a rampage outside of a damage reduction on heroic Maegera(sp?).
    Gladiator Clamsodad the Celestial Defender
    Gladiator Zerstiren, Hand of A'dal

  8. #8
    It should not trigger the CD if the Heal doesen't go through on the players log.

    Latency may or may not trigger the actually ability but why generate the CD when the actual numbers haven't been added to the data?

  9. #9
    Field Marshal Kalandrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vathius View Post
    It should not trigger the CD if the Heal doesen't go through on the players log.

    Latency may or may not trigger the actually ability but why generate the CD when the actual numbers haven't been added to the data?
    That's a good question =]
    Gladiator Clamsodad the Celestial Defender
    Gladiator Zerstiren, Hand of A'dal

  10. #10
    it's something that ret paladins also have: if you're using a skill right when your target dies, like CS, it dies, but the damage doesn't happen and the skill goes on CD. other classes have this as well, it's just the nature of the game.
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

  11. #11
    Same with all types of defensive cooldowns. Happened to me a few times on Ji-kun. Shield wall gets on cooldown yet I get hit with a 800k talon rake to the face and die.

  12. #12
    Moderator Krekko's Avatar
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    This has happened to me more frequently over the past 3 weeks than it has since my entire time playing Paladins (since release).

    It's normally bubble which will go all wild, not LoH, but man, IDK what happened a few weeks ago that made Lay on hands just have such a terrible delay in action. I even started setting a /y, which would go off once or twice (as many times as the button was hit) CD would activate, split second would pass and I'd then die.


    As people have said, issues like this have been around since release (it's a rather hard issue to fix, I'd imagine), I just don't know why at least in a case like with me, why it's happening so frequently recently, with and without add ons.
    -Retribution, the path of the protector or mender brought to it's natural conclusion; destroying evil before the weak need to be shielded from it, and before it can wound the innocent.
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  13. #13
    If I had a dime for every time that happened. I gotta stop having so much faith in that last bit of health.

  14. #14
    The Patient Kaino's Avatar
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    Happens to me sometimes with lifeswap too on my priest, I press it and my hp is taken down to 25% but the other player dies before they get the heal in return. Just need to use it a little earlier i guess

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Vathius View Post
    It should not trigger the CD if the Heal doesen't go through on the players log.

    Latency may or may not trigger the actually ability but why generate the CD when the actual numbers haven't been added to the data?
    Because the server doesn't recieve data that way. Checking if the spell is capable of being cast and putting it on cooldown is completely seperate process from carrying out the effect of the spell like .Nensec explained. They happen consecutively but NOT simultaneously.

    Not much to fix about it unless they want to change their spell architecture that's probably worked this way for years. The solution is to cast the spell sooner, unfortunately.

    Besides, I don't see having the spell come back off cooldown really helping in most cases. Usually when I experienced this playing my paladin the pull essentially became a wipe immediately after 9 times out of 10.
    Last edited by aggixx; 2013-05-01 at 12:00 PM.

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  16. #16
    Life swap has the same issue btw. So many times were I go 25% hp and my target dies

  17. #17
    Field Marshal Kalandrios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Because the server doesn't recieve data that way. Checking if the spell is capable of being cast and putting it on cooldown is completely seperate process from carrying out the effect of the spell like .Nensec explained. They happen consecutively but NOT simultaneously.

    Not much to fix about it unless they want to change their spell architecture that's probably worked this way for years. The solution is to cast the spell sooner, unfortunately.

    Besides, I don't see having the spell come back off cooldown really helping in most cases. Usually when I experienced this playing my paladin the pull essentially became a wipe immediately after 9 times out of 10.
    I really appreciate your response, Aggixx (and everyone else of course),

    I agree that in most cases -- during heroic progression -- that the failed Lay on Hands does in fact imply a wipe.

    That being said, I can think of a lot of situations where the dead person could be battle ressed, and I'd love to have my Lay on Hands back, considering it didn't even benefit the raid.
    Gladiator Clamsodad the Celestial Defender
    Gladiator Zerstiren, Hand of A'dal

  18. #18
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Nensec View Post
    ItYou cast the spell, the server accepts your request and sends it off to the next process. The next process checks for conditions ( cd, forb, range, etc. ) and accepts it, sending back the OK to the server which then puts your spell on cooldown while at the same time sends another request to another process that does the healing. That process then determines the amount of healing it will do, checking the conditions again and adjusting the spell ( overhealing, debuffs, healing absorbs, etc. ) and finally it sends the result to the server.

    It is between those last 2 that your target dies, talking likely < 5ms of time here to process those things if that even. The first condition check resulted true, putting your heal on cooldown. The second condition check returned false, since the target is dead.
    That and I think there is also a condition check when a player dies, likely due to cheat death abilities becoming more prominent.

    In essence, from what I can tell, when a player is hit by an ability for more damage to their health, they will drop to 1 health and check for abilities that will save them (AD, GS, Purgatory, etc.) If those abilities are not present, the player dies. (I don't know this for sure, but it seems to be what happens. For instance if you watch someone on your raid frames get hit by an annihilate on SK, they will drop to 1 health and then die, rather than die immediately.)

    However, I'm pretty sure healing at that point won't save them anyway, as the condition is already being check, even in that millisecond if you land a heal it's not going to do anything (but would put the heal on CD).

  19. #19

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Haven't seen it with LoH but i have life gripped a corpse a few times.
    life grip... a corpse? wouldn't that be more like death grip?
    Because I want to say this every single day but don't want it to get a drag:
    1) The ingame store will only sell timesaver items. It won't affect balance.
    2) No, getting to 100 in half the time isn't pay2win. raids don't start until the second week, everyone has time to get there.
    4) getting charms faster is also not pay2win. getting those is easy, but not everyone has the time or want for dailies.

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